After all this, what happens if the Super League DOESN’T go through?

Acheron

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If this doesn't go through some changes would need to be made by UEFA and FIFA as even without the Super League there's still a big gap between the smaller clubs and elite clubs that it's just getting bigger and until this announcement it's when FIFA seems to suddenly care about it.
 

Zehner

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I believe what has to be prevented is that those ESL teams pay nothing to support grassroot football but reap all the fruits. That would be really harmful. I'm not a lawyer but in the contracts, some clause should be included that ensures that if a players moves to the ESL or another association outside UEFA and FIFA, the player has to pay a compensation for his training that is then passed down the pyramid.
 

pseudo_canadian

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If it doesnt go through, I would still like to see some hard sanctions to deter this idea moving forwards. Significant cash and points deduction, or even relegation down one tier.
I’d be strongly in favor of outright relegation for all clubs involved. Send them all down to the fecking conference.
 

Champ

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It makes perfect sense. Just because you prefer a competitive league (we all do) doesn't mean the successful teams should pay to improve the teams below them.

That doesn't happen in any walk of life or industry.

I like the idea of a competitive league but the thought of teams lower down the league sat with their hands out for TV money for a game played between Man Utd and Barcelona seems bizarre if you think about it in anything other than a footballing perspective. I very much believe that's exactly how the owners of these clubs see things as well.

I'm not saying money shouldn't trickle down to keep the leagues competitive, however, your talking about businessmen. They won't like the idea of handing out a penny more than they feel they should, and to some extent I can see what they mean when it comes to the share of money between clubs.
I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you mean with this?

You are talking about creating a free market capitalist structure within football, one whereby a club can make its own TV rights deals and structure things how they see fit - (and whilst the system in English football is still skewed to those at the top, its more even than that alternative) this is the case in La Liga, whihc has effectively turned into a two horse race with the rare occasion that a third team might break the stranglehold...this system doesn't work.

The idea of the English structure is that mmoney trickles down from the top right the way to grass roots level, and that every team playing Saturday football can one day play in Europe, however by creating a closed off Super League and hereby devaluing every other European Competition, that dream is now dead.

As is potentially the dream of playing a massive team in the third round of the FA cup for a non league club.

The idea of teams 'paying' the lower level teams is just bizarre, thats not whats happening here at all, its TV money which is distributed based on certain criteria.
 

el3mel

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After UEFA's president quotes today I really believe it's impossible for it to not go through. These clubs have crossed the line in their relationship with UEFA. They won't do all this just to back down after getting some money.

This competition will either go through or the boards of all these 12 clubs will have to leave. The former is easier. The relationship of these boards with UEFA is broken beyond repair.
 

Champ

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Did I read somewhere that the super league was proposed to start in the 24/25 season?

If that is the case then the 12 clubs could be without European football for 3 seasons if they get expelled from the CL EL.

Surely none of the top players will be happy with this scenario?
I thought it was billed to start in August?
 

Dante

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It will go through.

I think the final result of this move will be the demise of UEFA and possibly even FIFA. The initial proposals for the ESL could well still get watered down before they come into effect. But I don't think there's any way back now.

The Glazers have crossed the Rubicon.
 

LoneStar

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Man Utd get higher television rights than Barcelona despite Barcelona receiving a much higher percentage of their respective rights. Sharing the rights out more evenly makes the league much more enthralling as a whole and as such much more popular meaning that our smaller percentage of the pie is still more money than the alternative.
Equality of outcome is not the same as equality of opportunity. This is like giving everyone in your team the same salary despite 2/3 people contributing for most of it.
 

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Really bad comparison. You cannot seriously compare an individual sport with a team sport? United proudly market themselves as the biggest team in the greatest league in the world. Creating a bigger gap between the biggest clubs and the smallest ones will only make the product poorer and the only way to compete if you're a smaller club will be through a filthy rich sugar daddy. The biggest clubs gain a bigger advantage before the TV money is distributed anyway, through sponsorships and general market (merchandise, match day etc.) incomes. I really really hope the TV deals doesn't end up like La Liga, even if it probably benefits United the most.
You can criticise the comparison, I could have picked any type of comparison because this literally happens nowhere else.

Regardless of the gaps between teams football will still be the biggest sport worldwide, no argument there, it will. So the best teams will still reap the biggest rewards.

Have you seen the figures mentioned for partipating clubs in this supposed super league? Eye watering. More than enough to cover any dip in following of the PL.

Also do you think for a second that these business guru's and their financial teams haven't gotten their heads together and worked out the risk versus reward in this scenario? Of course they have.

Again, I'm not saying I would prefer to increase the money gap between the top sides and the rest, just thinking aloud on the reasons for this situation and how they can possibly climb down from this amicably.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Equality of outcome is not the same as equality of opportunity. This is like giving everyone in your team the same salary despite 2/3 people contributing for most of it.
That is great Jordan Peterson.

Businessmen should do the best thing they can do to make their business successful, the fact that in this instance it also helps other people that you might feel are undeserving is irrelevant (actually quite great|).
 

RUCK4444

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I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you mean with this?

The idea of teams 'paying' the lower level teams is just bizarre, thats not whats happening here at all, its TV money which is distributed based on certain criteria.
This is exactly what happens. We can dress it up how we like, with it being morally correct, better for the competitive nature of the league etc etc (all true) but it comes back to the MASSIVE viewing of the major clubs games that injects this money into the league.

Without those key clubs at the top, the stars of the show if you will, then the money simply isn't generated. The same way you pay the leading actor in a film more than you pay the supporting cast, that is what these owners are no doubt thinking. It's hard to disagree entirely with that view.

The argument that we are as popular and successful as we are purely because the PL is a competitive and difficult league is a naive one imo. Look at Barca, Madrid, Bayern - they've plied their trade in farmers leagues compared to United and they are still icons of the game and HUGE brands.

Does it make the british game better and does it contribute to the PL being the best league in the world? Absolutely.
Do the owners of the top clubs feel they should cream the bulk of the TV money for drawing the biggest audiences? Yes.

The likes of United, Liverpool, City etc probably look at Madrid and Barca and see them getting what they deem should be their own fair share of the TV rights. If they are entitled to that then why aren't they? Speaking from a purely business frame of mind I would be thinking exactly the same as those guys. At the same time I wouldn't rip the guts out of the sport I love to bridge that gap either. But these guys aren't sports fans, they want a cash return, plain and simple.
 

peridigm

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They've all committed, they wouldn't have done so without assurances that all members would see this through. I'd expect financial agreements are also set is stone. If one club steps away - they'll be stabbing the rest in the back (ironic).

On the same note, UEFA and FA could compromise but would lose all the remaining traces of credibility they have if they pandered to the clubs demands.

It's a stalemate which I can only see ending one way - the ESL forms and UEFA/FA pick up the pieces of what's left behind and try to salvage broken leagues/broadcast rights etc.
Financial agreements already signed will have some serious repercussions if JP Morgan have any sense in their contracts. Can't see clubs pulling out unless it's very early stages and they're testing the waters with the announcements. Nothing indicates this is the case so, is it past the point of no return? Multiple members of that Euro thing have already stepped down so I'd venture to say, it's past the point of no return.
 

Luke1995

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Surprised that Real Madrid and Barcelona have agreed to join it.

Would players from other teams even want to play in the champions league knowing that they can never play against them ?
 

Champ

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This is exactly what happens. We can dress it up how we like, with it being morally correct, better for the competitive nature of the league etc etc (all true) but it comes back to the MASSIVE viewing of the major clubs games that injects this money into the league.

Without those key clubs at the top, the stars of the show if you will, then the money simply isn't generated. The same way you pay the leading actor in a film more than you pay the supporting cast, that is what these owners are no doubt thinking. It's hard to disagree entirely with that view.

The argument that we are as popular and successful as we are purely because the PL is a competitive and difficult league is a naive one imo. Look at Barca, Madrid, Bayern - they've plied their trade in farmers leagues compared to United and they are still icons of the game and HUGE brands.

Does it make the british game better and does it contribute to the PL being the best league in the world? Absolutely.
Do the owners of the top clubs feel they should cream the bulk of the TV money for drawing the biggest audiences? Yes.

The likes of United, Liverpool, City etc probably look at Madrid and Barca and see them getting what they deem should be their own fair share of the TV rights. If they are entitled to that then why aren't they? Speaking from a purely business frame of mind I would be thinking exactly the same as those guys. At the same time I wouldn't rip the guts out of the sport I love to bridge that gap either. But these guys aren't sports fans, they want a cash return, plain and simple.
Just over 4 million people tuned in last season to watch Bournemouth V Crystal Palace, because it was on BBC, more than a lot of Sky games.

Yes, the clubs involved in this farce do pull in the viewers more often, but then their games are shown more often. However, they get paid more for this already, look at the TV rights money they get, then also level that against the extra sponsorship deals they get etc etc.

I can understand wanting to maximise their profits, but jesus wept how much money do they really need? United are still profitable even with losing money due to the pandemic, we have assests like Lingard who we can get cash for, we have sponsorship deals coming out of every orafice, this cash grab is more than turning their backs on the premiership, its turning their backs on the entire football pyramid, from grass roots all the way to the very top.

Also, I wouldn't look to hard at Madrid and Barcas finance's....because they aint all that!
 

Smores

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I hope there's some punishment now even if it doesn't go through. Kill the fecking thing and hopefully get the directors sacked.

10pt deduction for each club involved.
 

LoneStar

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That is great Jordan Peterson.

Businessmen should do the best thing they can do to make their business successful, the fact that in this instance it also helps other people that you might feel are undeserving is irrelevant (actually quite great|).
Isn't that exactly what they are doing with the Super League? What's good for them, can't have it it both ways
 

OverratedOpinion

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Isn't that exactly what they are doing with the Super League? What's good for them, can't have it it both ways
Jesus.

I was arguing against a negotiation that would leave Man Utd and Liverpool or whoever taking the majority of TV revenue as that will ultimately reduce the size of the pie meaning that we get less no matter what percentage of that pie we get. ESL is shite too for completely different reasons.
 

Revan

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I’d be strongly in favor of outright relegation for all clubs involved. Send them all down to the fecking conference.
That would achieve two things:

1) EPL - on the international level - will be as relevant as the Scottish league. No one outside England gives a feck about West Ham or Everton. EPL clubs are extremely well-supported inside England (more than in any other country, bar perhaps Germany), but the glory of the league comes from the big clubs. Remove them, and EPL will be in a path towards irrelevance (for people outside of England).

2) Those clubs will double down and leave the English league system entirely, and play only in the ESL.
 

LoneStar

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Jesus.

I was arguing against a negotiation that would leave Man Utd and Liverpool or whoever taking the majority of TV revenue as that will ultimately reduce the size of the pie meaning that we get less no matter what percentage of that pie we get. ESL is shite too for completely different reasons.
"Sharing the rights out more evenly makes the league much more enthralling as a whole and as such much more popular meaning that our smaller percentage of the pie is still more money than the alternative"

This is simply untrue. Even without this, the league has enough top teams to be as interesting, and this would end up benefiting the big clubs like United and Pool more. There's a reason why teams like Bayern and others regularly make it to the deep end of CL. And that has even more popularity and potential revenue to the club.

Do you really think a club like United would be struggling to go past the round of 16 or even qualify otherwise?

Also way to go putting random shit as a response. Jordan Peterson, really? And when did I say that I'm opposed because it helps us and others. The whole point is that it doesn't.
 

Revan

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It will go through.

I think the final result of this move will be the demise of UEFA and possibly even FIFA. The initial proposals for the ESL could well still get watered down before they come into effect. But I don't think there's any way back now.

The Glazers have crossed the Rubicon.
That would be fecking great. UEFA and FIFA should have no business in organizing club football. Probably it would be okay for them to organize national football (WC, Euros etc), but when it comes to club football, they just add a few unneeded layers of bureaucracy that serve no purpose anymore.
 

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Just over 4 million people tuned in last season to watch Bournemouth V Crystal Palace, because it was on BBC, more than a lot of Sky games.

Yes, the clubs involved in this farce do pull in the viewers more often, but then their games are shown more often. However, they get paid more for this already, look at the TV rights money they get, then also level that against the extra sponsorship deals they get etc etc.

I can understand wanting to maximise their profits, but jesus wept how much money do they really need? United are still profitable even with losing money due to the pandemic, we have assests like Lingard who we can get cash for, we have sponsorship deals coming out of every orafice, this cash grab is more than turning their backs on the premiership, its turning their backs on the entire football pyramid, from grass roots all the way to the very top.

Also, I wouldn't look to hard at Madrid and Barcas finance's....because they aint all that!
Yeah listen I agree with you on the whole aspect of them turning their backs on the football pyramid and I don’t want it to happen.

I just think the owners will push and push until they have parity with the likes of the Spanish clubs.
 

OverratedOpinion

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"Sharing the rights out more evenly makes the league much more enthralling as a whole and as such much more popular meaning that our smaller percentage of the pie is still more money than the alternative"

This is simply untrue. Even without this, the league has enough top teams to be as interesting, and this would end up benefiting the big clubs like United and Pool more. There's a reason why teams like Bayern and others regularly make it to the deep end of CL. And that has even more popularity and potential revenue to the club.

Do you really think a club like United would be struggling to go past the round of 16 or even qualify otherwise?

Also way to go putting random shit as a response. Jordan Peterson, really? And when did I say that I'm opposed because it helps us and others. The whole point is that it doesn't.
This only effects money. Man Utd earn more money than Bayern, the fact that we have spent it terribly, hired bad managers and had owners taking some of the money in dividends is why we have struggled for years.

You literally quoted Jordan Peterson in a snarky response rather than offering any actual point. It does not help others when they have massive sources of revenue every year? It does not help us as someone marketing an entertainment product to be playing in the most globally watched league on the planet? Okay.
 

Cal?

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Just give the bigger clubs more of the TV revenue, they deserve more if they are the biggest draw for paying fans anyway, let’s be honest.

I’m against the greedy owners but none of this would likely be happening if the tv rights were apportioned how it would be in any other industry.
This is exactly the point!
 

hobbers

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Hopefully it would be the end of the Glazers.

It would definitely be the end of Woodward.
 

Cal?

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That would achieve two things:

1) EPL - on the international level - will be as relevant as the Scottish league. No one outside England gives a feck about West Ham or Everton. EPL clubs are extremely well-supported inside England (more than in any other country, bar perhaps Germany), but the glory of the league comes from the big clubs. Remove them, and EPL will be in a path towards irrelevance (for people outside of England).

2) Those clubs will double down and leave the English league system entirely, and play only in the ESL.
If the EPL, La Liga and Serie A did that, those clubs can easily double down and go full on and form a proper ESL league or perhaps even a cup of their own.

They'd probably play the games at the same time too just to screw with the national leagues.
 

hobbers

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If the EPL, La Liga and Serie A did that, those clubs can easily double down and go full on and form a proper ESL league or perhaps even a cup of their own.

They'd probably play the games at the same time too just to screw with the national leagues.
That would still be a massive, massive risk for the SL and the clubs involved to stand alone.

Obviously the whole point of this idea is to strip football from Europe and whore it out in tv packages to India and China, but prospective SL tv money is not going to be enough to completely replace domestic income and prize money from domestic leagues.
 

Revan

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If the EPL, La Liga and Serie A did that, those clubs can easily double down and go full on and form a proper ESL league or perhaps even a cup of their own.

They'd probably play the games at the same time too just to screw with the national leagues.
If they are forced out of the national leagues, they will simply recruit more clubs, and then play the games in weekends.

I still haven’t decided if I am gonna watch United vs Barcelona, or Coventry vs Northampton.
 

Cal?

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That would still be a massive, massive risk for the SL and the clubs involved to stand alone.

Obviously the whole point of this idea is to strip football from Europe and whore it out in tv packages to India and China, but prospective SL tv money is not going to be enough to completely replace domestic income and prize money from domestic leagues.
I think you're underestimating the global appeal of the super clubs, they'll get more than enough TV money to cover it.
 

Cal?

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If they are forced out of the national leagues, they will simply recruit more clubs, and then play the games in weekends.

I still haven’t decided if I am gonna watch United vs Barcelona, or Coventry vs Northampton.
Exactly this.

Imagine the choice -
Sat 3pm Real Madrid v Man United in the ESL or West Ham v Burnley in th EPL
Sat 5pm Juventus v Barcelona or Bilbao v Seville
Sat 7pm Liverpool v AC Milan or Cagliari v Atalanta
 

Teja

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If it doesn't go through, the clubs involved get more money from the UEFA, guaranteed qualification for CL, more influence, etc.

There will be no strong punishment, no idea where people get that idea from. The big clubs effectively hold the most power in this matter.
I hope for this. If not a guaranteed CL qualification, top 7 clubs in England should be a part of the CL knock outs at the very least. As long as the UEFA throws the english clubs this bone, the whole of ESL will fall like a house of cards.

I generally like the idea of a European competition where the best European clubs play. Manufacturing fake drama by hitting clubs' bottom lines (10%+ of revenues every year) and forcing us to play in the idiotic Europa league doesn't do anyone (fans / sponsors / clubs / players) any good.
 

hobbers

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I think you're underestimating the global appeal of the super clubs, they'll get more than enough TV money to cover it.
Not necessarily. The short term finances of the SL only look good because of JP Morgan's seed fund.

From a United point of view, the plan was obviously to play in the SL alongside the Prem.

So getting matchday revenue from 38 Prem games, which is still a big proportion of overall income (or at least was pre-pandemic), and then obviously their share of the broadcast revenue/prize money from it.

For the SL to generate enough for one club to earn more than all of that combined, seems quite unlikely, nigh impossible. They would need to probably double the amount of games in a season of the SL for a start.
 

Cal?

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Not necessarily. The short term finances of the SL only look good because of JP Morgan's seed fund.

From a United point of view, the plan was obviously to play in the SL alongside the Prem.

So getting matchday revenue from 38 Prem games, which is still a big proportion of overall income (or at least was pre-pandemic), and then obviously their share of the broadcast revenue/prize money from it.

For the SL to generate enough for one club to earn more than all of that combined, seems quite unlikely, nigh impossible. They would need to probably double the amount of games in a season of the SL for a start.
Well, obviously if the national leagues are suicidal, they will kick these 12 out of their leagues.

The ESL will become a full league playing on weekends instead at the same timeslots.

Good luck negotiating the next TV deal with Everton v Leicester being the biggest game compared to any combination of Real, Barca, United & the likes.
 

BrianLy

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The threats are all part of the play, in reality they're not going to do shit. It's just two sides taking their most extreme position in the negotiations, eventually they'll meet each other in the middle.
The discussions are too heated for people to make sense of this right now. Further, the back and forth about a super league have been going on for years, but have been relegated to columns and articles which are not read by the average fan. I can't blame people for lashing out as a lot of it is justified. A supporters our lives are also intertwined with fans from other teams and this has a bearing too.

My hope is that the energy goes towards whatever has the best outcome for fans and the little people around the clubs. In the worst outcome for the club, we have points deductions, are blocked from playing in competitions, players are barred from internationals, etc. This would have a very serious short-term impact on the staff at the club, local recovery from the pandemic, etc. It's still right for fans to fight for this, but if things got bad, we have to communicate very clearly to these other stakeholders who are caught up in this with their livelihoods. I know the match going fans have nothing but respect for the staff they run into, but this needs to reflected online too.
 

McGrathsipan

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I hope there's some punishment now even if it doesn't go through. Kill the fecking thing and hopefully get the directors sacked.

10pt deduction for each club involved.
100 points wouldnt even cut it.
 

Dansk

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Random hypothetical scenario; Ask yourself, should Usain Bolt pay for the training and sponsorship of his direct competitors as a result of being a world champion? Of course he shouldn’t.
Manchester United isn't paying other teams. The club is being paid money to play football, and those who pay the club are at liberty to change that amount as long as the club remains willing to continue playing. If I get demoted at work and another guy gets a raise, that's not the same as me giving that guy some of my money.

If clubs were to be paid in direct proportion to the amount of viewers they accounted for, 98% of it would go to a handful of clubs while the rest of the league would barely be professional teams. It's a sport whose sole inherent purpose is entertainment. Turning it into an industry where the main goal is profit, like you want, is the very reason that European football is facing a sports civil war.

By letting smaller clubs have a bigger share of the money than their actual sporting accomplishments warrant, the league becomes more interesting, which increases the amount of prize and broadcast money even for the big clubs. Look at Spain, where Barcelona and Real Madrid get a much bigger share than we do, yet they get far less actual money because their league isn't interesting or competitive enough to attract a large worldwide viewership. That country has only three big clubs, and only two of them are real giants of the sport, because the rest simply don't get a big enough share of the money to keep the competition high enough to garner major global appeal.
 

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Manchester United isn't paying other teams. The club is being paid money to play football, and those who pay the club are at liberty to change that amount as long as the club remains willing to continue playing. If I get demoted at work and another guy gets a raise, that's not the same as me giving that guy some of my money.

If clubs were to be paid in direct proportion to the amount of viewers they accounted for, 98% of it would go to a handful of clubs while the rest of the league would barely be professional teams. It's a sport whose sole inherent purpose is entertainment. Turning it into an industry where the main goal is profit, like you want, is the very reason that European football is facing a sports civil war.

By letting smaller clubs have a bigger share of the money than their actual sporting accomplishments warrant, the league becomes more interesting, which increases the amount of prize and broadcast money even for the big clubs. Look at Spain, where Barcelona and Real Madrid get a much bigger share than we do, yet they get far less actual money because their league isn't interesting or competitive enough to attract a large worldwide viewership. That country has only three big clubs, and only two of them are real giants of the sport, because the rest simply don't get a big enough share of the money to keep the competition high enough to garner major global appeal.
Or, to use your analogy, if you were earning your company all the money with your hard work and talent in your job, only for your lesser-capable colleague to be paid off the back of your hard work whilst they flounder under much less pressure than you are, I'm sure you would have something to say about that.

Also for a club like United, Liverpool etc to constantly fight tooth and nail just to qualify for the CL every season is a hugely costly exercise, one that's expected by fans and if they fail it directly damages the club. Imagine when you do get there to then have to pay a large proportion of the viewing rights for that competition to your direct rivals for that very competition. Think about it from a selfish businesslike point of view.

For the record, as I've said many times, I don't want this to happen. Just trying to see things from the owners point of view, add some balance/perspective to the discussion on how we've gotten to this position.
I hate the greedy leaches but I appreciate there will be some unhappy owners looking at Barca and Madrid pocketing much more than them, not to mention the deficit in those amounts are being paid straight to our rivals.

There needs to be an agreement across all leagues about what portion of TV rights each of the top teams are entitled to. This is where the root of the issue stems I feel.
 

Roboc7

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How can anyone look forward to being in a competition where we will just be making up the numbers, fans of teams like Utd, Arsenal and Spurs will get fed up pretty quickly once they realise they are the new Burnley/Crystal Palace etc.
 

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If they are forced out of the national leagues, they will simply recruit more clubs, and then play the games in weekends.

I still haven’t decided if I am gonna watch United vs Barcelona, or Coventry vs Northampton.
I'd rather watch Leeds vs Leicester then AC Milan vs Atleti
 

paraguayo

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The FAs will have a huge incentive to make referees just prejudice against these teams, and they will never trust these teams ever