Doesn't really tell us much. We know already Maradona's one of the greatest ever attacking players and Baresi's probably the greatest ever defender. My video earlier shows how much Maradona respects Baresi. Not sure how many times they'll really encounter eachother in this game but. Baresi will more likely encounter Pele
All-time Fantasy Draft Final - antohan v Cutch
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Doesn't really tell us much. We know already Maradona's one of the greatest ever attacking players and Baresi's probably the greatest ever defender. My video earlier shows how much Maradona respects Baresi. Not sure how many times they'll really encounter eachother in this game but. Baresi will more likely encounter Pele
Agree with all of Gio's points but Faccheti and Andrade will surely be more focussed on defending as pushing forward would leave Best and Ronaldo with space. Tough one this
Should have done some Anto-style lines from the left flank to the right flank and vice versa.
Think your second point Gio is answered by the third. It would be madness surely considering who they're up against for either to cross the half way line.
Indeed Dan. Facchetti can't provide the width Antohan is crying out for whilst simultaneously marking out Ronaldo - not a chance.
Of the right backs surely the bigger problem is Andrade up against Best and Santos. It's the perfect left flank.
Of the right backs surely the bigger problem is Andrade up against Best and Santos. It's the perfect left flank.
As Anto says Facchetti is the key to forcing the issue. The question is whether Facchetti and Henry will create a better range of opportunities than Ronaldo or Best on the counter picked up by a somewhat-out-of-position Rijkaard.
It's all adequately covered, no glaring weak spot to target.
Knowing Maradona, the quotes were probably straight after that game as they invariably bigged him further
No question they are both nailed-on starters in this game though.
Out of interest did Best and Facchetti ever face up against one another in the 1960s? Presuming not given both positional tendencies and the relative lack of European and International competition at the time.
You might think you have it covered, but how many times have we seen Ronaldo seemingly on the periphery of a game suddenly do something outstanding becoming the matchwinner. Take his header against us last week, how do you stop that?
Who is covering Di Stefano, if Rijkaard is covering Facchetti when he goes forward. Surely he is just left?
Which part of my continuous references to Rijkaard's cover have you chaps not read?
And it's Andrade v. Best + Santos v. Stoichkov. That's the entire point of Stoichkov starting there, as explained several times over.
It is a great left flank indeed, that's precisely why Andrade has been detailed to stick to Best like a rash and not attack at all, while Stoichkov is tracking Santos all game when not in possession.
I have shaped my entire right flank to deal with an obvious threat. Cutch passed on McGrath at RB, overlooking a glaring weakness, to lap up the Ronaldo love. He kept the weakest fullback in the game and eliminated any cover he could possibly have (he was never going to be able to fix that, in fairness).
One is a tactical decision, the other is a marketing decision. In the real world, the tactical decision would prevail as people don't vote on game outcomes. Players dictate them.
Overall, he has the better wingers, but well looked after, while I'm constantly exploiting a weakness and doubling up on it. And he is sure not making up for that through the middle.
I'll look that up mate, not that I'm aware of.
You could say that about half the players on the pitch really!
I kept Eyzaguirre because i question your effectiveness from wide areas. You've a striker on the wing that will be constantly coming inside to the clusterfeck in the middle. Your narrow system will be to the detriment of your star performers. Andrade's already been told to stay back so you're relying on Facchetti to provide the width and keep track of one of the most dangerous counter attacking footballers ever seen.
Beckenbauer. And no, don't go into the next midfield iteration, Hierro and Edwards are busy trying to win the ball back, not standing on my half unmarked waiting for a long ball. That's a big part of their job which I assume Cutch is asking them to do, it would be insane not to.
Do I really need to put together a clip of Henry tearing new arseholes into right backs and right-side CBs? Really?
Gonna struggle to find time to post here next few hours, flat out in work.
Serious lack of voters so far. Hope its a sign just of the closeness between the 2 teams. Theres no doubt they are 2 great sides, its just that mine is better
Serious lack of voters so far. Hope its a sign just of the closeness between the 2 teams. Theres no doubt they are 2 great sides, its just that mine is better
If the other voters are like me, they're holding back a bit waiting to see how the game develops. I'm sure there'll be a lot of votes towards the endGonna struggle to find time to post here next few hours, flat out in work.
Serious lack of voters so far. Hope its a sign just of the closeness between the 2 teams. Theres no doubt they are 2 great sides, its just that mine is better
Nope. The closest it got was when both us and Inter lost the semis in 1966. Looked up NI-Italy, which there would have been little to read into really unless there was an unlikely Northern Irish demolition of Italy, but they didn't meet either in any qualifiers.
No worries mate, I'll only reply to any concerns but won't go in with a major curveball while you are awayGonna struggle to find time to post here next few hours, flat out in work.
Serious lack of voters so far. Hope its a sign just of the closeness between the 2 teams. Theres no doubt they are 2 great sides, its just that mine is better
It's all set and clear IMO anyway, which obviously is the opposite to yours.
It's a pity Antohan doesn't have a marquee thoroughbred left-winger to expose Eyzaguirre. That's why I feel a chalkdust-on-his-boots type like Facchetti would have an impact. While assuming Eyzaguirre's the weakest link on the park, if he is regarded as one of the very best of his era in his position then he has a similar overall cross-generational standing to Henry. Quite good forward planning from Cutch securing Best and then leaving right-back as a near after-thought.
The issue Gio is he was rated as a result of him being one of the first attacking fullbacks. Everything indicates he was a wingback with little to offer defensively.
Cutch actually asked me to help him out with his research (watching that documentary clip and feeding back) and my response was there was nothing that indicated he was in any way solid at the back, that he would have to hope people opted not to punish a player for not knowing him and that ultimately it would all boil down to whether Brwned had any Chile '62 games handy to show him up.
I actually expected Brwned to come up with them then and somewhat read his non-posting of any cuttings as "well, maybe he can't fault him" but it appears he was every bit the defensive liability I expected him to be.
I would have been shocked not to have ever heard of him otherwise. What with his team dominating the Chilean league in the early 60s, when my own team dominated the Libertadores along with Santos? I would have heard of this immense Chilean, surely.
Henry himself is more than enough to wipe the floor with him, the 2v. 1 with Facchetti is taking the piss.
See below, this is what I meant by Henry's Mazzola shots. European Cup final against Real with Di Stéfano, Puskas, Gento, Amancio... Inter won 3-1, this is the opener. Can't you see him doing the exact same thing very effectively with Henry over and over again? (leaving aside Eyzaguirre would likely commit and be left for dead before crossing for Pelé or Stoichkkov arriving in the box). That's a classic Henry goal right there, but in B&W.
Do also notice the application, as soon as he passes he starts heading back. His job is done, whatever happens with Mazzola's shot we will see, but he has to head back. Monster.
The only area I see Cutch ahead in is on the wings, everywhere else Antohan has him beat I reckon. Up against Pele and Maradona I'm not convinced Charles would cut it at centreback and Eyzaguirre with Ronaldo in front of him (no tracking back from Ronnie) is a liability.
Not going to say too much in case Anto gets upset again but...
* I think De Stefano is a better player to have in these types of ultimate quality games than Maradona, he has a better all round game which will serve his team better.
* Beckenbauer has been wasted ever since Anto got him, I don't see the room for him to get much attacking done and all he seems to ever be doing is covering for his full back.
* Both Rbs are going to struggle. Andrade is from a bygone era and everything I hear about the Chilean is that he was renowned for his attacking, never for his defending.
Way I can see Anto scoring : the class and genius of Maradona/Pele will shine through, particularly if Hierro gets distracted trying to cover his RB.
Way I can see Cutch scoring : on the counter, Hierro pings the ball to the wingers and they do the damage, particularly because Anto needs his full backs to provide width.
* I think De Stefano is a better player to have in these types of ultimate quality games than Maradona, he has a better all round game which will serve his team better.
* Beckenbauer has been wasted ever since Anto got him, I don't see the room for him to get much attacking done and all he seems to ever be doing is covering for his full back.
* Both Rbs are going to struggle. Andrade is from a bygone era and everything I hear about the Chilean is that he was renowned for his attacking, never for his defending.
Way I can see Anto scoring : the class and genius of Maradona/Pele will shine through, particularly if Hierro gets distracted trying to cover his RB.
Way I can see Cutch scoring : on the counter, Hierro pings the ball to the wingers and they do the damage, particularly because Anto needs his full backs to provide width.
I should also point out the options i have to bring off the bench should i require a bit of attacking spark (which i shouldn't).
Ballon d'or winners Luis Figo, Roberto Baggio and Andrei Shevchenko, and sexy midfielders Fernando Redondo and Jean Tigana. Also one of Serie's record goalscorers Kurt Hamrin, Germanys other world class keeper Sepp Maier and captain marvel Bryan Robson.
Significantly greater threat than Anto's i feel.
Ballon d'or winners Luis Figo, Roberto Baggio and Andrei Shevchenko, and sexy midfielders Fernando Redondo and Jean Tigana. Also one of Serie's record goalscorers Kurt Hamrin, Germanys other world class keeper Sepp Maier and captain marvel Bryan Robson.
Significantly greater threat than Anto's i feel.
Andrade is not going upfield, he has a man-marking detail on a winger. Wingers were ubiquitous in bygone eras, everyone played with them and the right half marked them.
Beckenbauer is not covering him, he is positioning himself where he sees fit to keep things tight and providing an excellent outlet to transition to attack.
When Facchetti is upfield Ronaldo is looked after and, as shown above, Facchetti was very clear and mindful of his defensive duties. Rijkaard's cover is just precautionary, most times he will be all the way back next to Ronaldo while Cutch is still in his own defensive third. He actually chose football over a career as an athlete, no worries there.
Beckenbauer is not covering him, he is positioning himself where he sees fit to keep things tight and providing an excellent outlet to transition to attack.
When Facchetti is upfield Ronaldo is looked after and, as shown above, Facchetti was very clear and mindful of his defensive duties. Rijkaard's cover is just precautionary, most times he will be all the way back next to Ronaldo while Cutch is still in his own defensive third. He actually chose football over a career as an athlete, no worries there.
Please bring on:
- Figo for Ronaldo
- Baggio and Baresi out
- Redondo and Di Stéfano out
- Robson for "Robson with more physical presence" -Steve Curry
- Your better keeper, who is upset you picked him first then got a keeper from the same country who isn't even as good as he was and gave him the gloves. I would take Kahn over a demoralised Maier every day.
- Hamrin, no idea who for, surely not Ronaldo or Best. Weakens you no end. Unless you choose to go three at the back and hope for the best.
- Shevchenko for van Basten. Shevchenko would actually be a better choice seeing as you seem to be playing on the counter according to everyone.
- Tigana for Hierro, which would make my life a lot easier as Tigana won't do half as much good defensive work trying to bail out Eyzaguirre. He does have more pace in him, which may be handy if Hierro is meant to be chasing Maradona around.
Only Shevchenko in for van Basten sounds like a viable/somewhat reasonable idea.
My best 11 are on the pitch, just pointing out the world class match winners i also have in reserve.
Reserves you will not use and which unfortunately cannot in any way help deal with the huge gaping hole at Right Back.
Gary Kelly v2.0. Oddly, in that game I was continuously reminded how I didn't have someone like Henry to trouble him. No, it was Henry with Joan Capdevila tearing a new one into my right back Javier Zanetti
The extent to which player perceptions change in a couple of years is incredible. Thierry Henry, best player in the Premiership era (arguably, and definitely if you base it on 3 years or more), can no longer trouble Fifo Eyzaguirre, an all-out attacking wingback, not even with Giacinto Facchetti's support.
Incredible.
Gary Kelly v2.0. Oddly, in that game I was continuously reminded how I didn't have someone like Henry to trouble him. No, it was Henry with Joan Capdevila tearing a new one into my right back Javier Zanetti
The extent to which player perceptions change in a couple of years is incredible. Thierry Henry, best player in the Premiership era (arguably, and definitely if you base it on 3 years or more), can no longer trouble Fifo Eyzaguirre, an all-out attacking wingback, not even with Giacinto Facchetti's support.
Incredible.
The era you mention he played as a striker, who occasionally drifted wide which is different to the role you have assigned him. Then you have Stoitchkov on the opposite side to the one he played on. Both will not play as widemen which makes the whole thing look a bit unbalanced and disjointed to me
It's all time draft to be fair antohan, people aren't banging on about Henry because he isn't a standout at this level. All four of Cutch's forwards are better than Henry by a clear distance.
I'm not trying to criticise your team by the way, its just you make grander statements than Cutch.
This comment for example is just way OTT. He's a decent option there but no more than that at this level IMO. To say Henry, a great striker no doubt, is the best man to play left wing and attack Eyzaguirre is mental. Surely Stoichkov is a much better option? Though I know you have him covering Santos. Like Gio said it's unfortunate you don't have a proper world class left winger, because right back is Cutch's weakest spot no question.
I'm not trying to criticise your team by the way, its just you make grander statements than Cutch.
In a game situation you never know when reserves might be used. I shouldn't be needing a goal but if i did it'll be handy to call on the likes of Baggio, Figo or Shevchenko
Yeah he's being talked about like a Best or Garrincha. The match winners at this level will be the likes of Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona, Van Basten, Ronaldo, or Best. It's not gonna be Thierry Henry you'd think
Henry is playing with one of the greatest attacking fullbacks ever right next to him. There's no lack of width there nor is it disjointed. I even posted a clip earlier showing Facchetti linking up with Mazzola for the opener against Real in 1963. Henry could do exactly what Mazzola did there and did it regularly at his peak, or are you going to deny that? He played as a striker in a free-flowing team, he wasn't a rigid "kick the ball up to me" centreforward.
Stoichkov is exactly where I want him and indeed not providing width but arriving in the box for a finish, much like he did time and again for Barca. There's no rule book that says teams need two line huggers to be balanced or win games. In fact, I would argue the opposite.
You are certainly right about Henry there but when he drifted wide he loved to move infield and hit it with his right foot, some of his best goals were scored that way. To me that isn't really attacking Eyzaguirre.. Don't you think? You have said he is the weak link but I don't see him actually being targetted, Henry is more comfortable coming inside. Like you yourself said, in between Baresi and Eyzaguirre. It's not a bad tactic at all and gets the best out of Henry, but you aren't really attacking Eyzaguirre.
Not sure about a clear distance but sure, they are better, I never said otherwise. Both his wingers are better wingers than Henry and Stoichkov. No question. So what? Neither of his better players are being presented with as soft a target as Eyzaguirre, let alone on a 2 v 1 basis.
How good his wingers are is not the question, the question is whether them being so good can be translated into goals. The point at the end of the day is scoring and winning, not just being better individuals than someone doing the same at the other end of the pitch.
I do think Henry is my best available player to attack Eyzaguirre, particularly because I can see him playing off Facchetti very well. Stoichkov was never any more a wide player than Henry. In fact, I would argue the opposite, his most effective tricks were
- arriving in the box between CB and fullback to bang in a Laudrup through ball, or
- running onto a ball placed behind the CBs backs (Cutch would have to be defending high up for this) and beating the keeper one-on-one
- to attack that space between fullback and CB with the ball to draw the CB towards him, and play a one-two pivoting with someone positioned centrally (Diego here) and receive behind the CB with a clear goalscoring opportunity on.
Stoichkov is left footed though, he'd be better placed to attack Eyzaguirre by taking him on the outside, whereas Henry would be more prone to cutting infield which is Hierro/Baresi territory.
Not really the greatest example but this is kind of what I had in mind.
Not really the greatest example but this is kind of what I had in mind.
It will be if Ronaldo faces Facchetti, Best faces Andrade, and Henry faces Eyzaguirre.
Whatever gap in quality betweeen Henry and the rest (not really Ronaldo, although I accept it out wide) is far narrower than that between Eyzaguirre and the other three fullbacks.
You are only as strong as your weakest link.
The only one that's got tactical mileage IMO is Figo for Ronaldo but that would surrender votes. Shev for Van Basten is a non-starter.