All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - MJJ/Crappy vs diarm

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vs

......................................Team MJJ/Crappy..........................................................................................Team diarm.........................................

TEAM MJJ/Crappy

Formation

Vintage PL 4-4-2/4-4-1-1

Defense

We have one of the best goal keepers of the premier league era, Shay Given, who single-handedly kept newcastle from being humiliated on a regular basis. In Southgate we have someone who appeared for England more than 50 times at international stage and was the lynchpin of Villa's and Boro's defense for the better part of the decade. Alongside him is one of the best Irish players of all time in Paul Mcgrath, who was tremendous for Villa in the early part of PL, even winning PFA player of the year once. Out wide, probably the second best English left back of all time, Stuart Pearce, and a key component of Chelsea's defense over last few years, Ivanovic. 4 very tough defenders form the back line.

Midfield

The engine of our side. Keane and Scholes, PL's iconic MF. Together they possess everything you want in a CM duo, titled ever so slightly towards the attacking side of pendulum, they typify the score more than your opponents nature of 442. Presence of 2 of the best PL wingers of all time - Overmars and Ginola further cement the midfield's dominant nature. Both provide something different to the side. Ginola with his trickery and skill will outfox many a defenders while Overmars posses raw pace and skill to beat any full back in this draft. Both can play on either wing and switching wings during the match for either could be a valid tactic if required.

Attack

In attack, we have the creative genius of Bergkamp, partnered with the absolutely lethal Fowler, still the only player to score 30 plus goals in his first three full seasons in England. Bergkamp, one of the best players to play in premiership, gets his to play his natural role here behind a typical number 9. Fowler was a sensation for Liverpool when he broke on the scene, his scoring record in early seasons is testament to his finishing ability when he scored against all kinds of defenders and teams.

Why we will win.

- Midfield dominance: It is straight up Keane, Scholes linking up with Bergkamp up against Modric, Batty linking up with Le Tessier. Individually every single player of ours is better than it's counterpart in an identical set up, not just better but a couple of levels better. Combined, the difference will be even greater.

- Ivanovic's record vs Bale - In any match against each other, Bale has not scored or assisted. (In Some matches Ivanovic may have played as a RCB instead of RB). Ivanovic is the perfect RB to defend against a Bale playing the role of wing forward.

- Proven attacking line up between Bergkamp and Overmars - Infact Overmars's best season for Arsenal in terms of goals scored (12 in 32 games) coincides with Bergkamp's (16 in 28 games) for Arsenal as well. Overall they played for 3 seasons together at Arsenal.

diarm has the edge defensively with 3 very good defenders in there, attacking wise we have a slight edge with Bergkamp's presence and midfield wise a clear edge. Ultimately that will be enough for us to dominate the game, create more chances and win by a margin of 1-2 goals.

 

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TEAM DIARM

Substitutes:
Bjørnebye
Hendry
Pallister
Sherwood
Di Canio

Tactics

We have lined up in a deep lying 4-1-4-1 style which in reality becomes a 4-2-3-1 on the counter attack with Beckham and Le Tissier attacking the area around and at the edge of the box, and Bale in a floating role where he can attack the outside or drift in to join Van Persie in attack.

Two of the finest Centre Backs in Premier League history form the heart of our defence. Terry and Ferdinand form the perfect blend of physicality, strength, athleticism and guile and will be well protected by the tenacity and industry of Batty in defensive midfield.

Our great strength lies on the flanks, where the defensive ability, workrate and tactical discipline of Ashley Cole, Rob Jones, David Beckham and Gareth Bale is surpassed only by their attacking capabilities. We can attack with pace and verve down the left, using Bale as a lethal counter attacking weapon. Alternatively we can use the vision and technical ability of Beckham in his deeper role to find Van Persie pulling off the shoulder of the opposing centre backs.

As if Ivanovic and Pearce won't have enough to contend with, in Jones and Cole we have two of the finest overlapping fullbacks in the draft who will gleefully exploit any space on the outside and have the proven ability to deliver consistent and dangerous balls to our attackers.

In case anyone thought the wings were our only source of strength, the opposition will have to contend with both the industry and defensive contribution of Luka Modric, as well as the Croatians guile and technique in collaboration with the masterful Matthew Le Tissier through the middle of the park.

Modric will look to get on the ball in deeper areas and put his fullbacks or wingers into space quickly. In this he will have assistance from Ferdinand who has wonderful ability in carrying the ball out from the back and quality distribution For the most part we will look to move the ball quickly into the wider areas, or up towards Le Tissier and Van Persie and away from the opponents strengths in midfield.


Why Team Diarm Will Win

Goals, Goals, Goals!
Simply put, our team has players with better goal scoring records than our opponent in each of the attacking positions. Van Persie, Le Tissier and Beckham were significantly better goal scorers than Fowler, Bergkamp and Ginola respectively. Even Bale has a better rate than Overmars and the earlier part of his career was spent as a LB. If you take the last couple of seasons after his move forward to the wing, he has the second best on the pitch only to Van Persie.

Every one of our attackers and wingers scored more than their opposite number did in their peak seasons. The goal scoring ability of our side is beyond question and in all honesty, our opponent does not have the defence to counter it.


Defence
David Seaman behind John Terry and Rio Ferdinand, with Rob Jones and Ashley Cole on either side and David Batty in front. That is a defensive setup as good as any in the draft, both in terms of individual ability or achievements, and in harmony of styles.

Our defence is great while our opponents is only good. That's fine until you consider we also have the better goalscorers on the pitch and a vastly superior goalkeeper.

In McGrath and Southgate, they have a good pair of Premiership defenders but not of the same caliber as Terry and Ferdinand. Pearce is a good name but the Premier League never saw the best of the great man and at this stage of the draft, his Prem peak is a real weakness.

In Ivanovic, they have an excellent Right Back who saw some effective performances against his opponent Bale. Those games however, were for Chelsea where he had Terry inside him, a Mourinho formation including 2 defensive midfielders and wide players in front of him who were picked for their ability to track back. Here he has one box to box midfielder in front and in David Ginola on the Right Wing, a mercurial talent renowned for his inability, or unwillingness to track back. It will be a whole different test for him.

The main concern for our defence will be the brilliance of Dennis Bergkamp who will look to find space behind his striker and work his magic. He will be met here by David Batty who will provide a stiff challenge. Of course we expect him to get through a few times, he's too good not to.

Unfortunately for him, this is where history suggests he may struggle. In the 6 Premier League games Bergkamp played against John Terry, he failed to score a single goal. In the 5 matches he played against Rio Ferdinand he scored 1 goal, and that goal (in the infamous 4-2 match) was created by the type of play from Thierry Henry that we simply won't see from Robbie Fowler.

That's 1 goal in 11 matches against these two defenders. From our opponents star attacker.

~

In the end, it is a simple match up. Team MJJ has a world class midfield in Keane and Scholes. He has a clear edge there. Unfortunately, his opponents today have the superior goalkeeper, a much better defence, better wide players and more goals up front.

 

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Team Diarm - Player Profiles

Spoiler: Keeper & Defence

David Seaman (GK)
Arsenal 1992-2003
3 Premier League Titles, 4 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 1 UEFA Cup Winners Cup.
1 x PFA Team of the Year, EURO 96 Team of the Tournament.
142 clean sheets in 344 Premier League games. 40 clean sheets in 75 International caps.

A rock at the heart of a successful Arsenal side for over a decade and a goalkeeper they have taken more than a decade to replace, Seaman is easily the best English keeper to play in the Premiership.

Along with superb positional sense, strong reflexes and a great aerial presence, Seaman was a real presence at the back of a strong Arsenal defence, a brilliant manager of his defenders and a keeper who any attacker would rather play with than against.


Rob Jones (RB)
Liverpool 1992-1999
1 x PFA Team of the Year
155 Premier League games and 8 International caps.

One of the finest Liverpool defenders of the Premier League era, Jones’ career at international level in particular, was unfortunately cut short by injury.

Blessed with good pace and a fantastic cross, Jones was highly effective in bombing down the right flank and delivering goal scoring opportunities from wide areas.

His best attributes were always in defence however. Strong in the tackle and with the mobility to keep pace with tricky wingers, Jones was famous for marshalling some of the leagues most famous attackers. At his peak, during the 1994-95 season, Jones was as good a fullback as any in Europe.


John Terry (CB)
Chelsea 1998-2015
4 Premier League Titles, 5 FA Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Champions League and 1 Europa League
1 x PFA Player of the Year, 4 x PFA Team of the Year, 3 x ESM Team of the Year
5 x FifPro World XI, 4 x UEFA Team of the Year, 3 x UEFA Best Defender Award
FIFA World Cup Team of the Tournament 2006

A colossus at the heart of the Chelsea defence for almost 2 decades. Terry has led his team to every honour in club football and established himself as one of the greatest centre backs in Premier League history.

Tough, abrasive and courageous, Terry is unrivaled in the air and relentless in the tackle. Smart, cynical and assured, he rules the defence with an iron fist, imposing himself on any attacker and dictating the game from the back.

Aside from his overwhelming defensive contribution, Terry is famous for pitching in with goals, often at critical times. Particularly dangerous from set pieces, he will threaten defenders and keepers from corners and free kicks.


Rio Ferdinand (CB)
Manchester United 2002-2014
6 Premier League Titles, 3 League Cups, 1 Champions League and 1 FIFA Club World Cup
6 x PFA Team of the Year, Premier League 20 Seasons Award
1 x FifPro World XV, 1 x ESM Team of the Year

Considered by many to be the best centre back the Premier League has seen.

Ferdinand had everything; pace, strength, athleticism, skill, bite, timing, anticipation and a wonderful ability on the ball. He was the perfect foil to the traditional British "hard man" defender as his speed and awareness allowed him to eat up ground and frustrate quick or agile attackers.

Supremely comfortable on the ball, Ferdinand would start attacks from the back either with intelligent, well placed passing or with his signature driving runs through the midfield.

A real leader on the field and a true Manchester United legend.


Ashley Cole (LB)
Chelsea 2006-2014
3 Premier League Titles, 7 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 1 Champions League and 1 Europa League
4 x PFA Team of the Year
2 x UEFA Team of the Year, UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament 2004, England Player of the Year 2010

Arguably Englands greatest ever Left Back and right up there with Irwin as the best of the Prem era, Cole was the best in the world for a while during his peak at Chelsea. Fast, strong and with great positional and tactical awareness, Cole was one of the very few fullbacks capable of going toe to toe with Cristiano Ronaldo in full flight.

As good as he was defensively, Cole was possibly even better in attack. His pace and ability on the ball allowed him to contribute to the attack as a real force, cutting into the box or overlapping wide to deliver great crosses.

During his 8 seasons at Stamford Bridge, Cole was a star player in a side that won the Premier League, 4 FA Cups, a UEFA Cup and a Champions League.

 

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Team Diarm - Player Profiles

Spoiler: Midfield & Attack

David Batty (DM)
Newcastle United 1996-1998
1 Premier League Title,
3 x PFA Team of the year
3 goals in 83 Premier League appearances. 42 International caps.

David Batty arrived in Newcastle already boasting an impressive record at Leeds United, as well as a Premier League title and place on the PFA Team of the Year with Blackburn.

It was on Tyneside however that Batty reached his peak, twice being named on the Team of the Year and trusted by Kevin Keegan as his midfield general in a side that came within a whisker of Premier League glory.

One of the best holding midfielders ever to grace the Premier League, Batty’s tireless work rate, tenacious tackling and selfless, efficient use of the ball provided the rock on which Newcastle’s more glamourous footballers built their attacks.


Luka Modrić (CM)
Tottenham Hotspur 2008-2012
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament 2008

The little Genius! A complete central midfielder, Modric is a thorn in any sides attack with his high workrate and gritty defensive attributes. It is in attack that the diminutive Croatian shines brightest though. One of the most creative central midfielders the Premier League has ever seen, Modric possesses wonderful technical ability and fabulous vision.

Able to pass the ball quickly, accurately and intelligently over both small and long distances, he is the perfect middleman to unleash the full potential of a wide man like Bale and the movement of Van Persie up front. The idea of watching himself, Beckham and Le Tissier link up in the opponents half is mouth watering.


David Beckham (RW).
Manchester United 1992-2003
6 Premier League Titles, 2 Fa Cups, 1 Champions League
4 x PFA Team of the Year, Premier League Team of the Decade, Premier League Goal of the Decade
1 x UEFA Team of the Year, 1 x UEFA Club Footballer of the Year, 1 x FWA Tribute Award
1 x Ballon D’Or - 2nd Place, 2 x Fifa World Player of the Year - 2nd Place, 1 x England Player of the Year

Quite simply, the greatest right sided midfielder in Premier League history.

Beckham was the poster boy for the class of 92, a gifted footballer with one of the greatest deliveries of any player ever. Hard working in midfield and along the entire right flank, Beckham was a team player with an extraordinary gift for long range passing, for crossing and for set pieces.

Beckham occupied a role deeper, and more withdrawn than the modern winger. He was an integral part of the midfield rather than an out and out wide man, often choosing to use his brilliant ball striking technique and vision to beat his opponent rather needing to round him.

He linked the central midfield to the attack with quick and accurate short passing and was well able to beat a man on the outside, or put his overlapping fullback away when he needed to. In short, Beckham was one of the key individuals in a United team that won everything in club football and one of the great England players of his generation.


Gareth Bale (LW)
Tottenham Hotspurs 2007-2013
3 x PFA Team of the Year, 2 x PFA Players Player of the Year
2 x UEFA Team of the Year, 1 x FWA Player of the Year
42 goals in 146 Premier League appearances. 17 goals in 50 International caps.

The most expensive footballer of all time.

In 2013, Real Madrid paid £85.3 million for a player who had terrorised Premier League (as well as European) right backs for the previous 3 seasons following his progression from defender to attacker.

Player of the Year in 2011, Bale hit his undoubted peak in 2012/13, again picking up the award and registering 21 goals and 9 assists from midfield as Manchester United and Real Madrid circled in pursuit of his signature.

An impeccable athlete, Bale adds great skill and agility to his blistering pace and on several occasions towards the end of his spell in a Spurs shirt, was a simply unplayable force.


Matt Le Tissier (AM)
Southampton 1992-2002
1 x PFA Team of the Year, Multiple Goal of the Month/Season Nominations and Wins.
101 goals in 270 Premier League appearances. 8 International caps.

The first midfielder to score 100 Premier League goals and one of the greatest penalty kick takers of all time, “Le God” as he was known to the Southampton faithful, was so much more than the statistics or indeed, international records show.

A player of immense technical ability, Le Tissier is a footballer that still invokes fond images in the memory of any Premier League fan over the age of 25. A devious and wonderful passer of the ball, Le Tissier could and often did, score incredible goals from anywhere he wanted to.

As a young United fan growing up in the 90’s, staying up for Match of the Day on a Saturday evening was 60% about watching United and 40% looking forward to seeing Le Tissier’s contribution to this weeks Goal of the Month selection! A true Premiership legend.


Robin Van Persie (CF)
Arsenal 2004-2012
1 Premier League, 1 FA Cup, 1 UEFA Cup
1 x PFA Players Player of the Year, 1 x PFA Fans Player of the Year
1 x FWA Player of the Year, 1 x ESM Team of the Year, 1 x Premier League Golden Boot
96 goals in 194 Premier League appearances. 49 goals in 98 International caps.

Van Persie was signed by Arsenal in 2004 to replace the great Thierry Henry. His earlier career at the club was disrupted by injury but towards the end of his time in London, he had become the complete forward.

Smart, powerful and with an ability to create and score goals from nothing, Van Persie was every defender’s worst nightmare. Most at home on the shoulder of bamboozled centre backs, RVP was blessed with an impeccable first touch, quick feet and pure finishing ability.

During his final season at Arsenal (and his undoubted peak), Van Persie was the leagues best player by a distance, scoring 30 league goals and adding 14 assists as he paved the way for a move to Manchester United where he would go on to play a large part in winning his first, and Sir Alex Ferguson’s final Premier League title.

Spoiler: Substitutes

Stig Inge Bjørnebye (LB)
Liverpool 1992-2000
1 League Cup
1 x PFA Team of the Year
2 goals in 119 Premier League appearances. 1 goal in 76 International caps.

Another Liverpool fullback with a talent for overlapping on the flank and swinging in accurate and consistent crosses, Bjørnebye had one of the sweetest left foot strikes in the league.

Solid and effective in defence, the Norwegian wide man peaked under the management of Roy Evans, making the PFA Team of the Year for his fine performances in 1996/97 and the notable number of chances he created for Stan Collymore and Robbie Fowler from his exploits down the left hand side.


Colin Hendry (CB)
Blackburn Rovers 1992-1998
Premier League Title 1995
2 x PFA Team of the Year
8 goals in 203 Premier League appearances. 3 goals in 53 International caps.

An old fashioned, “hard as nails” centre back who owned his penalty area during his time at Blackburn in the mid 90’s.

Tough and uncompromising on the floor, it was in the air where Hendry made his mark as undoubtedly one of the strongest aerial defenders the Premiership has ever seen.

Along with Flowers, Sherwood and SAS, Hendry was a true leader and key member of Blackburn’s title winning side in 1995. A beast of a man, impossible to bully and able to strike fear in the heart of attackers everywhere.


Gary Pallister (CB)
Manchester United 1992-1998
4 Premier League Titles, 3 FA Cups, 1 League Cup,
5 x PFA Team of the Year, 1 x PFA Players Player of the Year
8 goals in 207 Premier League appearances. 22 International caps.

One of the most decorated Centre Backs of all time, Pallister made up half of maybe the Premier Leagues greatest ever defensive partnership.

Blessed with pace, agility, intelligence and great technical astuteness, Pallister was the perfect foil to the traditional, uncompromising defender. His physical ability, along with a keen awareness of the game, allowed him to cover his more abrasive partner, mopping up attacks before they began and negating the threat of the quick forward.

Aside from his wonderful defensive capabilities, Pallister had an uncanny knack for scoring goals at crucial moments including cup semi-finals and title-deciding show downs.


Tim Sherwood (CM)
Blackburn Rovers 1992-1999
1 Premier League Title
1 x PFA Team of the Year
24 goals in 235 Premier League appearances. 3 International caps.

Captain of the 1995, title winning Blackburn side, Sherwood was a real leader by example on the field. A combative and no nonsense footballer, he bossed the midfield with hard tackling, determined pressing of his opponents and a keen sense of position and anticipation.

Economical but intelligent with the ball, Sherwood was so effective at Blackburn that owner Jack Walker famously rejected the opportunity to sign Zinedine Zidane.


Paolo Di Canio (SS)
West Ham United
1 x UEFA Intertoto Cup
Goal of the Season 1999/00
48 goals in 118 Premier League Appearances.

At times tempestuous and controversial, Di Canio was above all, a gifted footballer.

Scorer of one of the finest goals in Premier League history, the fiery Italian was capable of mixing outrageous technique and vision with a strong and aggressive attacking presence. Great technical skill and a fine goal scoring record helped Di Canio go down in the history books as a thorn in the side of his opponents but a real Hammers hero.

 

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@Rado_N

Could you please help to put up a poll? Thanks

With players at peaks in the teams indicated, who will win?
MJJ/Crappy
diarm

votes visible without voting
votes can be changed
24 hours

 

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Good luck @MJJ @crappycraperson @diarm

 

[Rado_N]

Poll added.

 

[diarm]

Will just put these here in case anyone missed the earlier rounds and wanted some refreshment on well Van Persie will operate off the delivery of Beckham and Modric:

 

[diarm]

And this just because everyone deserves to watch some Le Tissier every so often!

 

[crappycraperson]

diarm has been cheeky with his write up, few issues straight off the bat with what he wrote -

- Arsenal version of RVP is being played yet he has also used United numbers for him. Same with Fowler, only Liverpool numbers should count. On that front, there is very little to choose between the two. Fowler has marginally better strike rate but I will admit that may be due to RVP playing on wing early on.

- Bergkamp was never about goals. If that was the case, he would not be cited as one of the best attacking players to play in PL. Any comparison with Le tessier is futile, DB was imply on a different level. His battle against Batty is lop sided also because Batty will also have to concern himself with charging Scholes at times.

- Overmars has an easier battle on his hand against Jones than Bale has against Ivanovic. Both can have impact on the game but given their respective opponents, Overmars is more likely to.

At the end of the day diarm pretty much concedes that this game will be about who scores most. Having a dominant center in Keane, Scholes and Bergkamp will allow us to run the game and create more.

diarm team is stuck in a no man's land where they don't have the CMs to play the counter attacking strategy and neither can dominate the game to outscore the opponents in an open contest.

 

[crappycraperson]

@MJJ will take over now

 

[diarm]

diarm has been cheeky with his write up, few issues straight off the bat with what he wrote -

- Arsenal version of RVP is being played yet he has also used United numbers for him. Same with Fowler, only Liverpool numbers should count. On that front, there is very little to choose between the two. Fowler has marginally better strike rate but I will admit that may be due to RVP playing on wing early on.

No cheekier than my opponents were, using Fowlers figures from all competitions instead of Premier League in his first 3 seasons.
The key figure for this draft is "Peak" season and again, my side has the edge in all 4 positions.

- Bergkamp was never about goals. If that was the case, he would not be cited as one of the best attacking players to play in PL. Any comparison with Le tessier is futile, DB was imply on a different level. His battle against Batty is lop sided also because Batty will also have to concern himself with charging Scholes at times.

Bergkamp was never about goals because he operated alongside Thierry Henry, possibly the greatest player in the history of the league.

I'm a huge Bergkamp fan but to suggest that Le Tissier does not belong in the same conversation when the Southampton man achieved what he did playing behind the likes of Ian Dowie and Craig Maskell is highly speculative. 102 goals in 270 games, playing as an attacking midfielder for Southampton is astounding, whatever way you want to look at it.

Batty will of course be keeping an eye elsewhere but don't underestimate Modric's workrate in the middle. Far more effective than Scholes when it comes to defensive effort.

- Overmars has an easier battle on his hand against Jones than Bale has against Ivanovic. Both can have impact on the game but given their respective opponents, Overmars is more likely to.

I can't agree with this. Jones was a far better defender than you are implying and Ivanovic is operating without anything like the protection afforded him at Chelsea. Both Beckham and Bale offer far more defensive work than Overmars and particularly Ginola which simply has to be taken into consideration when considering who is going to threaten more.

At the end of the day diarm pretty much concedes that this game will be about who scores most. Having a dominant center in Keane, Scholes and Bergkamp will allow us to run the game and create more.

I concede nothing of the sort. Although we have the stronger attack, both teams will threaten going forward. This game will come down to who has the best defence and with the better keeper, harder working wingers, a proper defensive midfielder and a vastly superior defence, I can only see one winner.

diarm team is stuck in a no man's land where they don't have the CMs to play the counter attacking strategy and neither can dominate the game to outscore the opponents in an open contest.

As you have done with Jones and Bale, you are vastly underestimating Modric's ability to get into the game in midfield. The idea that those two, as good as they were, can completely shut down a quick, counterattacking gameplan is unreasonable. We have the best ball playing centre back the league has seen in Rio Ferdinand and two fullbacks who are comfortable on the ball, whether carrying or distributing.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Hmmm, not sure I'm too thrilled about either team's upgrading.

Diarm definitely upped the level at his defence, but how good of a combo is Rio-Terry as a duo and not individually? Alone? Both are among the best, but I don't think they are complimentary to each other.

On the other side, finally Bergkamp gets his role, but again, is fowler the right partner? I thought of picking him as well at some point but I remember fowler as more SS than the actual striker, wasn't he?

Still, MJJ/Crappy has such a superb midfield going forward its pretty much unstoppable without a brick wall. Modric might be trying to dictate the tempo but in reality the linkup from Bergkamp-Scholes-Ginola/Overmars to Bergkamp/Fowler will be overwhelming. thats without even considering everytime he gets the ball he'll face Keano..

 

[crappycraperson]

No cheekier than my opponents were, using Fowlers figures from all competitions instead of Premier League in his first 3 seasons.
The key figure for this draft is "Peak" season and again, my side has the edge in all 4 positions.



Bergkamp was never about goals because he operated alongside Thierry Henry, possibly the greatest player in the history of the league.

I'm a huge Bergkamp fan but to suggest that Le Tissier does not belong in the same conversation when the Southampton man achieved what he did playing behind the likes of Ian Dowie and Craig Maskell is highly speculative. 102 goals in 270 games, playing as an attacking midfielder for Southampton is astounding, whatever way you want to look at it.

Batty will of course be keeping an eye elsewhere but don't underestimate Modric's workrate in the middle. Far more effective than Scholes when it comes to defensive effort.



I can't agree with this. Jones was a far better defender than you are implying and Ivanovic is operating without anything like the protection afforded him at Chelsea. Both Beckham and Bale offer far more defensive work than Overmars and particularly Ginola which simply has to be taken into consideration when considering who is going to threaten more.



I concede nothing of the sort. Although we have the stronger attack, both teams will threaten going forward. This game will come down to who has the best defence and with the better keeper, harder working wingers, a proper defensive midfielder and a vastly superior defence, I can only see one winner.



As you have done with Jones and Bale, you are vastly underestimating Modric's ability to get into the game in midfield. The idea that those two, as good as they were, can completely shut down a quick, counterattacking gameplan is unreasonable. We have the best ball playing centre back the league has seen in Rio Ferdinand and two fullbacks who are comfortable on the ball, whether carrying or distributing.

May be it's just me but I will categorically say that I don't think Le Tessier belongs in the same conversation as Bergkamp. Other voters can make up their own mind. While I would concede that Henry was a much bigger factor behind Arsenal's success, to put down Bergkamp's effectiveness to him is not correct. It is a bit like saying someone like Iniesta would only work in a team with someone like Messi who scores bundles to make up for Iniesta's lack of numbers. In both of the cases (Iniesta/Bergkamp) numbers do not tell the story if you have not seem them play. I know that some United fans even consider Bergkamp better than Eric as well, despite the latter pulling up better numbers and more crucial goals for us.

Bergkamp's role is especially critical here given your defense. He has exactly who he needs alongside him as well. A proper finisher in Fowler, Overmars out wide to open up space and make those runs and Ginola and Scholes to link up to dominate the central attacking area. Batty is not enough for this task.

Again I believe that Overmars vs Jones is a better match up for us than Bale vs Ivanovic is for you.

About Modric, I do not underestimate him at all. I have actually defended him in previous drafts. But he has simply come up against a better version of himself here. Only place where he beats Scholes is perhaps he is better at dribbling past a player or two. Defensive wise both put themselves about to not be passengers of any kind. Everywhere else Scholes is superior.

Your main write up basically boiled down to - 'their midfield is better, my defense and attack is better.. ergo I should win'. Not sure it works that way. The biggest swing in front 4 is Bergkamp presence instead of Le Tessier for me, that combined with our clearly better midfield duo is enough for us to win this.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Overmars will enjoy this match so much..

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

May be it's just me but I will categorically say that I don't think Le Tessier belongs in the same conversation as Bergkamp

Been there. Said that. Crazy for anyone to think differently. Bergkamp is by far one of the most talented players ever to appear in the PL.
But than again, Ivanovic is worst defensively than Rob Jones isn't he?

 

[Gio]

Marc Overmars v Rob Jones? There's only one way that ends up:

 

[crappycraperson]

Been there. Said that. Crazy for anyone to think differently. Bergkamp is by far one of the most talented players ever to appear in the PL.
But than again, Ivanovic is worst defensively than Rob Jones isn't he?

I am not going to comment too much about the gap between Tessier and Bergkamp. I will leave it to the voters to decide if there is one or not and how much it will impact the game. If someone does not think Bergkamp is that much better than Tessier, then fair play it is their opinion and their vote.

Regarding Ivanovic, diarm's assertion that he has benefited from Chelsea's defensive set up is not correct. For starters he was bought in 2008, by that time, Chelsea;s defensive prowess was on the wane. Terry was past his peak and not rejuvenated yet, cech was doing through a tough period, likes of Makelele and Carvalho left soon as well. He had to play and perform alongside likes of Luiz who required plenty of covering at the back. Only after Jose came again, that he was part of a defensively solid Chelsea again. Before that he was performing consistently for Chelsea which was not the defensive powerhouse it once was or may be currently.

 

[diarm]

Let's have a proper look at Overmars here.

For all his ability, he was never actually hugely effective in the Premier League. Not by the standards on show this late in the draft.

25 goals in 3 years is good but not great, especially when you see his opposite number scored 21 in one season. The really weak point is his assists column of 9 in 3 seasons. That is very poor for a winger and prime attacking outlet in such a strong side.

Then we look at the goals he did score and a pattern emerges. Overmars was something of a flat track bully racking up goals against weaker sides such as Charlton, Middlesbrough, Barnsley, Forest and Leicester. In 3 years, he only scored one goal against a top side and that was against a United defence consisting of Henning Berg and John Curtis in March of 98. I think my defence ranks a little higher than that.

Been there. Said that. Crazy for anyone to think differently. Bergkamp is by far one of the most talented players ever to appear in the PL.
But than again, Ivanovic is worst defensively than Rob Jones isn't he?

Viva, I get that you were unhappy with how our game went and that's fine. But the jumping into every game since and deliberately skewing my comments is unnecessary.

Diarm definitely upped the level at his defence, but how good of a combo is Rio-Terry as a duo and not individually? Alone? Both are among the best, but I don't think they are complimentary to each other.

As for this. I'm not sure what I can say in response to the idea that a world class, hard hitting and aerially dominant centre back might not be complimentary to a world class pacey and elegant ball carrying centre back.

 

[bleezy]

I thought for sure Diarm would upgrade Batty. Terry/Pallister or Rio/Hendry would have done fine here with a midfielder a tier above Batty to go alongside Modric. Up against Keane and Scholes, or Makalele-Vieira-Gerrard if he faced Gio, I think Batty-Modric feels a bit weak. I'm a massive fan of the front four and think that'd work great.

The front six of MJJ's side is brilliant and perfect for a Premier League draft. I'm less enthused about the centre backs who I think would have a bit of a challenge on their hands, but it's a very combative back four with Pearce and Ivanovic either side. I think he's got the 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 pretty spot on here and it's balanced enough to control the game and edge it.

 

[Donaldo]

I am not going to comment too much about the gap between Tessier and Bergkamp. I will leave it to the voters to decide if there is one or not and how much it will impact the game. If someone does not think Bergkamp is that much better than Tessier, then fair play it is their opinion and their vote.

Regarding Ivanovic, diarm's assertion that he has benefited from Chelsea's defensive set up is not correct. For starters he was bought in 2008, by that time, Chelsea;s defensive prowess was on the wane. Terry was past his peak and not rejuvenated yet, cech was doing through a tough period, likes of Makelele and Carvalho left soon as well. He had to play and perform alongside likes of Luiz who required plenty of covering at the back. Only after Jose came again, that he was part of a defensively solid Chelsea again. Before that he was performing consistently for Chelsea which was not the defensive powerhouse it once was or may be currently.

Tissier.

 

[Gio]

I thought for sure Diarm would upgrade Batty. Terry/Pallister or Rio/Hendry would have done fine here with a midfielder a tier above Batty to go alongside Modric. Up against Keane and Scholes, or Makalele-Vieira-Gerrard if he faced Gio, I think Batty-Modric feels a bit weak. I'm a massive fan of the front four and think that'd work great.

The front six of MJJ's side is brilliant and perfect for a Premier League draft. I'm less enthused about the centre backs who I think would have a bit of a challenge on their hands, but it's a very combative back four with Pearce and Ivanovic either side. I think he's got the 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 pretty spot on here and it's balanced enough to control the game and edge it.

I think Diarm's problem in midfield is really down to the lack of viable upgrades. Part of that is down to the luck of the snake order - he hasn't had the opportunity as far as I'm aware to snap up one of the really big midfield hitters (it's also why we prioritised Vieira over Henry because we knew the midfield pool would be decimated by the time it worked back down). So in that sense I can understand why he went for the bigger upgrades elsewhere - and his defence is now fantastic - albeit it presents a midfield control issue here.

 

[diarm]

Batty was a top, top class defensive midfielder in a league that hasn't seen too many really great defensive midfielders. He is tailor made for the role he is performing in my team and I really believe people are giving both him and Rob Jones a massively unfair rap here.

Particularly when it seem Stuart Pearce, Ginola and Given (imo the 3 weakest players on the field) are being given a free ride.
It seems a given that Overmars will destroy Jones but Beckham who has a better scoring rate than Overmars and vastly superior assist rate, will not have more joy against an under par Premier League Pearce.

Bergkamp was a beautiful player. I completely agree with that, no matter what others would try to imply. But his brilliance was in orchestrating the attack with the genius around him. In this attack he doesn't have that same level of genius in his teammates. He will be dangerous, he will show regular pieces of magic, but he never once scored in 6 games against John Terry and only once in 5 against Ferdinand. It is not a given that he will be the match winner here.

 

[Gio]

Overmars was lightning (and pace and change of direction are his main threats) but Jones is one of the quickest full-backs I've seen in the Premier League. It would be a good tussle.

 

[crappycraperson]

Marc Overmars v Rob Jones? There's only one way that ends up:

He is stuck in a bad spot where on the face of it he has the better back 4 but Overmars against Jones is the worst defensive match up on the pitch.

And with that he has started to downplay Overmars...

Let's have a proper look at Overmars here.

For all his ability, he was never actually hugely effective in the Premier League. Not by the standards on show this late in the draft.

25 goals in 3 years is good but not great, especially when you see his opposite number scored 21 in one season. The really weak point is his assists column of 9 in 3 seasons. That is very poor for a winger and prime attacking outlet in such a strong side.

Then we look at the goals he did score and a pattern emerges. Overmars was something of a flat track bully racking up goals against weaker sides such as Charlton, Middlesbrough, Barnsley, Forest and Leicester. In 3 years, he only scored one goal against a top side and that was against a United defence consisting of Henning Berg and John Curtis in March of 98. I think my defence ranks a little higher than that.

It is disingenuous to compare wingers' scoring records in 90s to scoring records of wing forwards now. They played different role and had different demands than ones to likes of Bale in a 4231.

Even someone like Giggs during the same era had a similar or even worse record than Overmars, I doubt you would try to disparage him.

Overmars was a big reason behind Arsenal's double win in 97/98, as far as him being a flat track bully goes -

 

[diarm]

It is disingenuous to compare wingers' scoring records in 90s to scoring records of wing forwards now. They played different role and had different demands than ones to likes of Bale in a 4231.

Even someone like Giggs during the same era had a similar or even worse record than Overmars, I doubt you would try to disparage him.

Giggs scored 13 goals in 1992/93 and goal scoring was never really the key part to his game. The difference was that Giggs supplied much, much more than 3 assists per season and that is a measure by which we can most certainly judge wingers from that era.

The only goal he ever scored against a big side. And United did not have a stellar defence out that day.

 

[MJJ]

Hmmm, not sure I'm too thrilled about either team's upgrading.

Diarm definitely upped the level at his defence, but how good of a combo is Rio-Terry as a duo and not individually? Alone? Both are among the best, but I don't think they are complimentary to each other.

On the other side, finally Bergkamp gets his role, but again, is fowler the right partner? I thought of picking him as well at some point but I remember fowler as more SS than the actual striker, wasn't he?

Still, MJJ/Crappy has such a superb midfield going forward its pretty much unstoppable without a brick wall. Modric might be trying to dictate the tempo but in reality the linkup from Bergkamp-Scholes-Ginola/Overmars to Bergkamp/Fowler will be overwhelming. thats without even considering everytime he gets the ball he'll face Keano..

Not sure about your description of fowler here, he was the ultimate poacher and one of the finest finishers in the PL era.


Will just post this here, really not a lot between him and van persie at their respective peaks. Also, feel diam is underrating ginola and overmars here. There isnt a lot between either wings, while our midfield is clearly superior(ditto with his defense).

 

[dannymc1309]

The midfield trio battle is interesting as I don't think it would play out in the way it might look at first glance. The tactics state Keane-Scholes combo to be the classic pairing of a more attacking nature and as much as I love Scholes his work and effectiveness going backwards when the ball is lost isn't a strong point. It would be fair to assume that when MJJ/Crappy attack Keane would have to sit off the action a little worried about the fast transition threat from Bale/Beckham as he wouldn't leave that under par for this tier cb pairing exposed. This leaves Batty sitting deep in front of the defence versus Bergkamp, which obviously is far from ideal but as Diarm has said he thrived on providing the pass and fowler will have two great CBs to deal with so chances to play that pass could be limited. Scholes is a great player but Modric had a brilliant defensive work rate and when the ball is lost and the quick transition begins Modric will have the upper hand when having Scholes running backwards. With the CB pairing and Batty trying to limit Bergkamp it stands to reason that the ball will be lost more than a goal is scored, providing more instances where Diarms team has the possibility of a quick transition or counter attack, as opposed to MJJs team playing against a better defence with less room to manoeuvre. Bale and Cole overlapping would also be a nightmare down that side and there is a clear route to goal with RVP from Beckham which hasn't been nullified.

 

[diarm]

As a supporter in the stands, I would be very much looking forward to watching how Cole and Bale attacked Ivanovic on the left flank. With Ginola in front there is next to no protection on that flank and while Ivanovic is a fine defender, that is a huge amount of pace and ability to contend with.

Similarly, I would be delighted to see Beckham and Jones looking to punish Pearce down the right hand side. I'd be expecting the flanks to be a real source of joy for us all day. I can see Van Persie and Bale (arriving late) getting some real joy in that box against two centre backs who I always considered to be better on the ground than in the air.

The you have Le Tissier who for the second game in a row, has been left relatively unattended in the space between midfield and the defence. His absolute favourite place to be. Given will have his work cut out!

 

[Donaldo]

Good analysis @dannymc1309, pretty much why I went with diarm.

 

[crappycraperson]

Giggs scored 13 goals in 1992/93 and goal scoring was never really the key part to his game. The difference was that Giggs supplied much, much more than 3 assists per season and that is a measure by which we can most certainly judge wingers from that era.



The only goal he ever scored against a big side. And United did not have a stellar defence out that day.

MJJ is here so this will be my last post unless he leaves soon. But I am not sure why you have brought up Giggs' scoring record from 92/32 and that too one that was matched by Overmars in 97/98 when he score 12 league goals. Overmars was stellar at Arsenal and hence why Barca paid as much as 25 million pounds back then (record for any Dutch player at that point) for him.

 

[crappycraperson]

The you have Le Tissier who for the second game in a row, has been left relatively unattended in the space between midfield and the defence. His absolute favourite place to be. Given will have his work cut out!

I think you are discounting Keane's ability to play the box to box role if you think Le Tissier will be free to do what he wants here. Not sure Le Tessier is good enough to warrant a Makelele style DM anyway.

 

[MJJ]

The midfield trio battle is interesting as I don't think it would play out in the way it might look at first glance. The tactics state Keane-Scholes combo to be the classic pairing of a more attacking nature and as much as I love Scholes his work and effectiveness going backwards when the ball is lost isn't a strong point. It would be fair to assume that when MJJ/Crappy attack Keane would have to sit off the action a little worried about the fast transition threat from Bale/Beckham as he wouldn't leave that under par for this tier cb pairing exposed. This leaves Batty sitting deep in front of the defence versus Bergkamp, which obviously is far from ideal but as Diarm has said he thrived on providing the pass and fowler will have two great CBs to deal with so chances to play that pass could be limited. Scholes is a great player but Modric had a brilliant defensive work rate and when the ball is lost and the quick transition begins Modric will have the upper hand when having Scholes running backwards. With the CB pairing and Batty trying to limit Bergkamp it stands to reason that the ball will be lost more than a goal is scored, providing more instances where Diarms team has the possibility of a quick transition or counter attack, as opposed to MJJs team playing against a better defence with less room to manoeuvre. Bale and Cole overlapping would also be a nightmare down that side and there is a clear route to goal with RVP from Beckham which hasn't been nullified.

Ivanovic has shown time and time again that he can handle bale on his own, if cole pushes up it leaves diarm's side exposed to ginola who along with bergkamp will create numerous scoring opportunities.

If batty is sitting in front of defense against bergkamp, who exactly is playing in midfield against keane and scholes? Le tissier(nah, he is playing as a number ten) and modric? So its modric against two of the best midfielders the world has ever seen??

Diarm's side will simply not get enough of the ball to create chances for his attackers against our poorer defense, whereas we would create far more against his better defense.

Also, feel beckham is so overrated in these draft games. It seems like there isnt a fullback in the world who can limit his influence. Here pearce will stick close to him and prevent him from creating goal scoring chances.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Viva, I get that you were unhappy with how our game went and that's fine. But the jumping into every game since and deliberately skewing my comments is unnecessary.



As for this. I'm not sure what I can say in response to the idea that a world class, hard hitting and aerially dominant centre back might not be complimentary to a world class pacey and elegant ball carrying centre back.

Don't read between my comments, I gave you compliments where you deserved them, and I'm not ignoring any of your strengths or deliberately sabotage your draft game, I'm not that immature.

 

[diarm]

I am not sure why you have brought up Giggs' scoring record from 92/32 and that too one that was matched by Overmars in 97/98 when he score 12 league goals.

Because I was replying to the post where you said:

It is disingenuous to compare wingers' scoring records in 90s to scoring records of wing forwards now. They played different role and had different demands than ones to likes of Bale in a 4231.

Even someone like Giggs during the same era had a similar or even worse record than Overmars, I doubt you would try to disparage him.

Because that was Giggs peak season during the decade and era you specified, and to show that Giggs could match Overmars in goals while also providing the level of assists expected of a winger in that time. I thought that when you said it was disingenuous to compare wingers goal rates, you might find assists more relevant.

 

[diarm]

I think you are discounting Keane's ability to play the box to box role if you think Le Tissier will be free to do what he wants here. Not sure Le Tessier is good enough to warrant a Makelele style DM anyway.

Wow. 102 goals in 270 league games suggests otherwise.

 

[diarm]

Don't read between my comments, I gave you compliments where you deserved them, and I'm not ignoring any of your strengths or deliberately sabotage your draft game, I'm not that immature.

I never said anything like you put in this post:

But than again, Ivanovic is worst defensively than Rob Jones isn't he?

 

[MJJ]

@diarm if jones was so good, how come he only had 8 england caps and was shifted to left back for a converted fullback in mcateer?

 

[diarm]

@diarm if jones was so good, how come he only had 8 england caps and was shifted to left back for a converted fullback in mcateer?

He was moved to left back at the end of his time at Liverpool after a series of injuries cut short his international and ultimately, Premier League career far too early. It's fairly well accepted that Neville would've had work to do to replace Jones had it not been for the injuries. Neville would probably have taken it eventually but he wouldn't have just walked into the shirt.

 

[MJJ]

He was moved to left back at the end of his time at Liverpool after a series of injuries cut short his international and ultimately, Premier League career far too early. It's fairly well accepted that Neville would've had work to do to replace Jones had it not been for the injuries. Neville would probably have taken it eventually but he wouldn't have just walked into the shirt.

Wasnt dixon the first choice RB for england before neville? So even discounting neville, jones was never an england international.