All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - MJJ/Crappy vs diarm

[crappycraperson]

No worries about the double teaming. It's all great debate!

I thought I'd been clear on Batty and Le Tissier but I will clarify again just to be crystal.
Where did I mention that he will be playing a proper central midfield role a la Keane? This is my formation:

.. and I have repeatedly said he will be the shield in front of the back 4. Danny reinforced that tactic in his comment.
I did reject the notion that he would only be focused on Bergkamp because as you have set out, Scholes and Keane will attack our box as well. But I don't think I have suggested he will be playing a Keane role anywhere.

Batty is the defensive midfielder. He is the shield. Of course, he is capable on the ball and will pass simply and effectively when we regain possession but he won't be crossing the halfway line too often.

As a DM, he can comfortably slip back as cover when a wingback is moving forward with the ball. This is how effective defensive midfielders work all the time.
In the middle of the park we have Modric and Beckham in his withdrawn role. They will not top Keane and Schole by passing it back and forth through the midfield but we won't be doing that. Deliberately because Keane and Scholes are so good.

We will look to move the ball to Bale, to Le Tissier or to Van Persie. We will be fast and direct and we will counter. When the opportunity is there, we will use our fullbacks to good effect.

When you have the ball, you will be effective through the midfield but then you will reach our defensive line. Occasionally, one of our fullbacks may be out of place but Beckham and particularly Batty won't be too far away. Of course you will get into good positions because you have excellent players but they will also be facing an exceptional defence.

When we get the ball quickly to Bale, who is going to stop him making ground into your half? Are you going to risk pushing Ivanovic up that high? When we win the ball off Keane or Scholes in our half and get it to Le Tissier in space 10-15 yards outside your penalty area, who is going to counter him? Are you going to pull a centre back out and risk leaving Van Persie one on one? Is Ivanovic going to come across and leave space for Bale to move into?

The Batty thing is on me.. I misread one of your points.

As far as Tissier point goes, I think it simply comes down to how do you rate respective players here. Like I have said I don't rate Tissier high enough so that Keane would not be able to stifle him playing playing his natural role or if required someone like Mcgrath can't charge out and take him on. Yes in that case, it would necessitate leaving only one defender on a forward as it happens in football matches all the time. That scenario is no different where a charging Scholes runs into the box and one of your CB or Batty will have to cover for him leaving either Fowler 1 v 1 or Bergkamp here.

 

[diarm]

To help better explain how our midfield would work, here is an idea of our shape when the opposition has the ball and is attacking us:

And here, is an image showing the direction our players will move in immediately after retaining possession. (Obviously Rio's arrow is dependent on him having the ball and bringing it forward. The arrows for the fullbacks are movement one of them will take depending on the space available and turn of the ball.)

 

[sajeev]

I was surprised he upgraded from Pallister to Rio, too, when he could have upgraded Batty or Le Tissier. I might have kept Batty to mark Bergkamp and just brought in Lampard for Le Tissier to help with the midfield scrap and get on the end of crosses from Beckham and Bale (playing left-wing)

no chance would i drop Le Tissier for Lampard. that's sacrilege

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What version of Scholes is this, The younger attacking or the later playmaking one?

 

[antohan]

I was surprised he upgraded from Pallister to Rio, too, when he could have upgraded Batty or Le Tissier. I might have kept Batty to mark Bergkamp and just brought in Lampard for Le Tissier to help with the midfield scrap and get on the end of crosses from Beckham and Bale (playing left-wing)

I wouldn't prefer that, not in a million years. Modric, Batty and more workrate from Beckham and Bale than Overmars/Ginola will be good enough and Le Tissier offers far more in that space between the lines.

The way this game is laid out, I've no doubt he will be the best player on the pitch. It was hard enough for anyone to deal with him and here there's literally no one picking him up in any sort of disciplined way. He'll run riot.

 

[crappycraperson]

no chance would i drop Le Tissier for Lampard. that's sacrilege

I think you highly overrate Tissier. Lampard has much better pedigree than him.

 

[antohan]

The Batty thing is on me.. I misread one of your points.

As far as Tissier point goes, I think it simply comes down to how do you rate respective players here. Like I have said I don't rate Tissier high enough so that Keane would not be able to stifle him playing playing his natural role or if required someone like Mcgrath can't charge out and take him on. Yes in that case, it would necessitate leaving only one defender on a forward as it happens in football matches all the time. That scenario is no different where a charging Scholes runs into the box and one of your CB or Batty will have to cover for him leaving either Fowler 1 v 1 or Bergkamp here.

Neither of them is on that side of the pitch.

 

[diarm]

Once we win possession, the aim is that the ball will be transitioned quickly into the possession of either Rio, Modric or Beckham somewhere in the vicinity of the highlighted box below:

At this time, they have one of the three options mentioned earlier to choose from and every one of them has the ability to find their man there. I can't see who is left behind the oppositions midfield who will stop these counters?

 

[diarm]

I think you highly overrate Tissier. Lampard has much better pedigree than him.

I can only think you didn't get to see Le Tissier play. The man was magnificent. I saw him twice in the flesh and he could do things other players can only dream of.
There are enough videos of him on youtube to be able to acknowledge his ability though and in Le God's case, the real thing did the youtube videos more than justice.

 

[antohan]

no chance would i drop Le Tissier for Lampard. that's sacrilege

It's a completely bonkers idea. Let alone because his two Chelsea players are arguably the best in their role in the EPL-era, as opposed to Southgate, an aging Pearce/McGrath and Branislav Ivanovic.

 

[crappycraperson]

I can only think you didn't get to see Le Tissier play. The man was magnificent. I saw him twice in the flesh and he could do things other players can only dream of.
There are enough videos of him on youtube to be able to acknowledge his ability though and in Le God's case, the real thing did the youtube videos more than justice.

I have seen enough of him. It will be laughable if you reach the final on back of Tissier.

He was your 5th pick in the drafts. A total of 74 players were picked before him. If he could do stuff others could only dream of, he would have been picked alongside likes of Cantona and Bergkamp.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

What version of Scholes is this, The younger attacking or the later playmaking one?

bigger question for me is what version of Bale is this....the winger one or the "Ronaldo" one.

The way this game is laid out, I've no doubt he will be the best player on the pitch. It was hard enough for anyone to deal with him and here there's literally no one picking him up in any sort of disciplined way. He'll run riot.

With Batty focusing mainly on Bergkamp, Keane and specially Scholes will run riot all game and mjj will easily dominate the game.

The question is, who will score more....them through dominant spells, or diarm on the counter. While i think diarm has a very good side for counter attack and i would back him against any other team but there is just to much football brain in mjj side, Bergkamp and Scholes together with top quality wingers and goalmachine up front, i cant see past them.

 

[diarm]

It's a completely bonkers idea. Let alone because his two Chelsea players are arguably the best in their role in the EPL-era, as opposed to Southgate, an aging Pearce/McGrath and Branislav Ivanovic.

The crazy thing is that Lampard is completely unsuited to the role. Le Tissier is going to pretty much hang around the halfway line and receive long balls from the back in oceans of space behind a midfield that by their own admission, will be pushing forwards. Once he receives it in their half, he has the ability to beat a couple of his defenders, or to play Van Persie through, or simply to ping it in the top corner.

It sounds like I'm being nonchalant but this is precisely what he did on a regular basis, often with inferior teammates and against better defences.

 

[Skizzo]

You are way off here. That is not the case at all.

Way off on what? That people think midfield possession equals a win? I don't think so. I never stated you said that, just that some discussions have gone down that path.

I also don't think overmars and Ginola are the wingers you want next to two box to box midfielders without a solid defense for cover.

Anyway, said my piece, don't want to distract anyone when I'm not voting anyway.

 

[Gio]

Diarm definitely upped the level at his defence, but how good of a combo is Rio-Terry as a duo and not individually? Alone? Both are among the best, but I don't think they are complimentary to each other.

Thought they were pretty solid for England together.

I wouldn't prefer that, not in a million years. Modric, Batty and more workrate from Beckham and Bale than Overmars/Ginola will be good enough and Le Tissier offers far more in that space between the lines.

The way this game is laid out, I've no doubt he will be the best player on the pitch. It was hard enough for anyone to deal with him and here there's literally no one picking him up in any sort of disciplined way. He'll run riot.

Unless I've missed it, what I'm not clear about is how Crappy/MJJ intend to deal with Le Tissier. When a 4-4-2 comes up against a 4-4-1-1 there needs to be some plan to deal with the man in the hole. I appreciate that Crappy/MJJ's central midfield will dominate, but what happens off the ball? Is it a case of assuming that midfield dominance will be enough (that can be a viable plan, depending on the game)?

 

[crappycraperson]

Way off on what? That people think midfield possession equals a win? I don't think so. I never stated you said that, just that some discussions have gone down that path.
.

No. That most draft games are decided by the voter's perception of midfield battle. If anything my experience on here has been the opposite though generally it mostly goes in cycles with respect to a particular tactic ala CA, possession football etc. But yeah, a discussion for after that game.

 

[diarm]

bigger question for me is what version of Bale is this....the winger one or the "Ronaldo" one.

The left winger, as he played in his final two seasons at Spurs, scoring 31 goals and registering 23 assists.
Bale didn't play the Ronaldo role in the league at Spurs. He dabbled in something half similar a couple of times in Europe but domestically he was used as a winger.

With Batty focusing mainly on Bergkamp, Keane and specially Scholes will run riot all game and mjj will easily dominate the game.

You're underestimating the workrate of Modric and Beckham, as well as the defensive abilities of my team.

The question is, who will score more....them through dominant spells, or diarm on the counter. While i think diarm has a very good side for counter attack and i would back him against any other team but there is just to much football brain in mjj side, Bergkamp and Scholes together with top quality wingers and goalmachine up front, i cant see past them.

I can't see a way in which we score less than them. We can score from the left, the right and through the middle either from range or Van Persie.

I only really see their goals coming through the middle and that means beating Batty, Terry, Rio and Seaman.

 

[MJJ]

Going by PL form, I would just like to point out that ferdinand will refuse to line up with terry and we will win by default

 

[diarm]

Going by PL form, I would just like to point out that ferdinand will refuse to line up with terry and we will win by default

I genuinely considered that when picking Rio!
In the end I decided his peak was before all that carry on started.

 

[MJJ]

The crazy thing is that Lampard is completely unsuited to the role. Le Tissier is going to pretty much hang around the halfway line and receive long balls from the back in oceans of space behind a midfield that by their own admission, will be pushing forwards. Once he receives it in their half, he has the ability to beat a couple of his defenders, or to play Van Persie through, or simply to ping it in the top corner.

It sounds like I'm being nonchalant but this is precisely what he did on a regular basis, often with inferior teammates and against better defences.

Again, if you play it like that you wont be seeing any of the ball. Between ginola, scholes and bergkamp we have enough players who can maneuver the ball in tight spaces and your players will always be outnumbered 2 to one with tissier not dropping back, and batty sitting in front of the defense. We can just pass the ball around till an opportunity arises to slip a pass through to fowler who will finish it more often than not based on his PL form.

 

[Balu]

Going by PL form, I would just like to point out that ferdinand will refuse to line up with terry and we will win by default

Surely he plays pre-2011 versions of both players?

 

[MJJ]

I genuinely considered that when picking Rio!
In the end I decided his peak was before all that carry on started.

Ahh feck, if only terry was more of a cnut early on

 

[antohan]

The crazy thing is that Lampard is completely unsuited to the role. Le Tissier is going to pretty much hang around the halfway line and receive long balls from the back in oceans of space behind a midfield that by their own admission, will be pushing forwards. Once he receives it in their half, he has the ability to beat a couple of his defenders, or to play Van Persie through, or simply to ping it in the top corner.

It sounds like I'm being nonchalant but this is precisely what he did on a regular basis, often with inferior teammates and against better defences.

I lived in Southampton throughout his heyday. Agreed, that's exactly what he did, week in week out. Everyone knows I rate Bergkamp very highly, but I wouldn't swap them in your setup.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

bigger question for me is what version of Bale is this....the winger one or the "Ronaldo" one.

Which year did he play the "Ronaldo" role? Thought he was more the winger for Spurs.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The left winger, as he played in his final two seasons at Spurs, scoring 31 goals and registering 23 assists.
Bale didn't play the Ronaldo role in the league at Spurs. He dabbled in something half similar a couple of times in Europe but domestically he was used as a winger.

he didnt play ronaldo role but he played like Ronaldo, in his last season with Spurs he was more of a Ronaldo then Cristiano himself...

@Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[crappycraperson]

Unless I've missed it, what I'm not clear about is how Crappy/MJJ intend to deal with Le Tissier. When a 4-4-2 comes up against a 4-4-1-1 there needs to be some plan to deal with the man in the hole. I appreciate that Crappy/MJJ's central midfield will dominate, but what happens off the ball? Is it a case of assuming that midfield dominance will be enough (that can be a viable plan, depending on the game)?

In 90s PL era, 442 features heavily against 4411 at many a times. Even our own formation is a mix between the two given how much deep Bergkamp can come at times. When United did face any team playing 451 or 4411, Keane never shifted to a pure DM role. Neither does it warrant here. People also seem to coloring Keane as clone of Yaya who in a box to box role will be charging out every time. Paired with Scholes, he always played a more circumspect role in terms of his forward runs. I don't want to go on singing praises of Keane though it is easier to do. But he he pretty much had everything in locker, he would destroy opposition attack at times, be someone to pick up the ball from his own box and move it forward, link up with other midfielders and also pop up in attacks at odd times. As far as defensive role in this match goes, he will be a big part of stopping any transition from Modric/wingers to Tissier. There will be times where Tissier will be behind him but I already mentioned that in those cases someone like Mcgrath is handy enough to come out of his defensive area to close down Tissier/

 

[diarm]

Again, if you play it like that you wont be seeing any of the ball. Between ginola, scholes and bergkamp we have enough players who can maneuver the ball in tight spaces and your players will always be outnumbered 2 to one with tissier not dropping back, and batty sitting in front of the defense. We can just pass the ball around till an opportunity arises to slip a pass through to fowler who will finish it more often than not based on his PL form.

My defence will win the ball from you in the final third more often than not. Our attack is launched from deep so we don't need huge amounts of possession i the centre of the field.

That said, even as good as Scholes and Keane are, Modric and Beckham will see enough of the ball to hurt you.

Lets be careful not to overstate the defensive contributions of Scholes, Ginola or Overmars here. None of those 3 would have that listed as a strength.
Keane is brilliant but he's going to have a difficult time doing all of this dominating of affairs on his own.

 

[antohan]

@diarm has made a rookie mistake in voting for himself

 

[crappycraperson]

@MJJ is here so I am off

 

[diarm]

In 90s PL era, 442 features heavily against 4411 at many a times.

They did. And Le Tissier scored 102 goals in 270 games against them.

 

[diarm]

@diarm has made a rookie mistake in voting for himself

I thought everyone could vote for themselves to see the score? This has happened in earlier rounds.

 

[antohan]

In 90s PL era, 442 features heavily against 4411 at many a times. Even our own formation is a mix between the two given how much deep Bergkamp can come at times. When United did face any team playing 451 or 4411, Keane never shifted to a pure DM role. Neither does it warrant here. People also seem to coloring Keane as clone of Yaya who in a box to box role will be charging out every time. Paired with Scholes, he always played a more circumspect role in terms of his forward runs. I don't want to go on singing praises of Keane though it is easier to do. But he he pretty much had everything in locker, he would destroy opposition attack at times, be someone to pick up the ball from his own box and move it forward, link up with other midfielders and also pop up in attacks at odd times. As far as defensive role in this match goes, he will be a big part of stopping any transition from Modric/wingers to Tissier. There will be times where Tissier will be behind him but I already mentioned that in those cases someone like Mcgrath is handy enough to come out of his defensive area to close down Tissier/

Keane is on the right side to stop Modric having a significant impact, but you've got no plan for Le Tissier here. McGrath is starting on the right side of defence, is he making diagonal runs across the defence to come pick him up leaving a huge pocket of space for RvP to outsmart Southgate into? Doesn't sound too clever to me.

 

[diarm]

Have I blown it?

 

[antohan]

Have I blown it?

It simply makes people think there's a single vote in it (as of now) when there are two. In tight matches the relative perception of who is ahead and whether a vote is making it a draw or turning one team into a winner can be significant.

 

[crappycraperson]

They did. And Le Tissier scored 102 goals in 270 games against them.

Jesus.. this much overrating of Tissier of all players. It would be one thing to lose because of Henry or Ronaldo but this is just

 

[antohan]

Wait... isn't @dannymc1309 your AM as well? you couldn't make it up...

 

[crappycraperson]

Keane is on the right side to stop Modric having a significant impact, but you've got no plan for Le Tissier here. McGrath is starting on the right side of defence, is he making diagonal runs across the defence to come pick him up leaving a huge pocket of space for RvP to outsmart Southgate into? Doesn't sound too clever to me.

I think you and Balu are the only who care too much about who is placed where. We had no way to predict where he would start Tissier. Swap the CBs about in your mind if you want to.

 

[crappycraperson]

Wait... isn't @dannymc1309 your AM as well? you couldn't make it up...

Is it so? Can @Skizzo confirm

 

[Skizzo]

I thought everyone could vote for themselves to see the score? This has happened in earlier rounds.

Because now if someone checks the score before they vote, they will just see the score. You may be ahead on the score, but because you voted, your vote won't count so someone may vote for mjj to make it a tie...not realizing that they are actually now ahead because of the non counted manager vote.

 

[Skizzo]

Is it so? Can @Skizzo confirm

I'd have to check back through the draft thread, but I'm pretty sure Danny ended up as someone's AM. May well be Diarm.

Shooting themselves in the foot here if so