Jones would've been first choice for the 92 Euros (I'm aware this is pre-Prem) but lost out to injury. He regained his form and fitness after that but never for more than a short amount of time between injuries.
A quick google shows that from 92-95 he played 30,38,31 and 33 times for liverpool in the league. So he was rarely injured, 7 caps for that return is extremely poor imo and suggests he wasnt that great of a fullback.
Bale used to drift in from the left/played centrally for spurs after his break through season so not sure how relevant ivanovic not being at right back really is.
Jones was terribly unfortunate with injuries. Dixon wouldn't have had a look-in to be honest had Jones stayed fit. Even Neville would have struggled. Obviously though we're not judging him on what he could have achieved but what he showed in a Liverpool shirt in the early-to-mid 1990s.
Aye, that's a pet peeve. The likes of Figo, Giggs, Donadoni, Beckham usually played in hard-grafting midfield units, worked the wide channel relentlessly and played on average much deeper because it was a more competitive era when they weren't parked on the edge of the opposition's box for 80 minutes.
Oddly though I don't think Beckham has ever tasted success in a draft. Neither has Terry though, so history's against you here diarm!
Jones broke through when he was very young but a bad injury set him back. He bounced back, and was brilliant for Liverpool between 93 and 95. He was very much back in the England fold by 95 when he had the back problems that in the end forced him out. At that stage he was only 25 years old. Weren't too many 25 year old defenders with buckets of caps back in those days.
I get that I do, but Overmars was not that type of winger. He was very much an advanced attacking winger who by rights should have a better assists and goals record than he does. Especially if my opponent is claiming he will tear Jones to shreds.
That seems incredible when you consider what they've both achieved!
Terry's image is that poisonous he's barely won a game never mind the whole shebang.
Oh he's a total cnut. I have two of them as well in himself and Cole, and I'd say even Batty's mum wouldn't say he was her favourite son!
Finally a goalkeeper made the difference!
A mini victory in itself!!!
For someone who says he is a "huge" fan of Bergkamp, you don't quite seem to understand why he is rated as one of the best PL players ever. His scoring record for Arsenal is decidedly average regardless of which defenders he faced. He does provide a goal threat but his primary importance is to stamp his creative authority on the pitch.Also comparing his record against Rio and Terry is again not correct since his peak for Arsenal came before Rio and Terry entered their own peak. His best season for Arsenal was 97-98 when Arsenal won the double, a season where he won player of the year as well.
He voted against EAP for having shay given before as well.
Our wingers are on par, dont think bale,beckham are any better than overmars,ginola. Cole and Ferdinand are clearly superior to our defenders, while its closer with mcgrath and ivanovic is better than jones. Midfield wise, we absolutely own you and not a lot between fowler and van persie either.
Based on those stats he pretty much played almost every game for liverpool during that period and didnt get a look in and was then shifted to left back to accomodate a midfielder in mcateer. That doesnt seem like a world class fullback to me or someone who is better than ivanovic.
Pearce was an england international and probably the second best left back(after cole) that england has had in recent times. So no, he isnt a lot stronger than pearce.
Find the average position/heat map of bale through out that period he started playing more and more central after his first season and would cut in more often.Bale played very much on the left. Ivanovic faced him once. Another of the games Ivanovic didn't feature in at all.
In the other 3 games, this is how they lined out:
No I am leaving.. continue.. i will post after dinner may be
Honestly, I was born in Rotterdam and have spent my life supporting Holland in tournaments Ireland didn't qualify for (ie. a lot). I have a great understanding of Bergkamps abilities. From the last two games, it feels like if I don't throw in the towel and say Bergkamp would win the game all by himself, I am somehow undermining how good he was.
I have never said Batty will be solely focused on Bergkamp. He will be the shield in front of the back four and will be a challenge for anyone to get through on their way to Terry, Ferdinand and Seaman. But he will be in that area that Bergkamp likes to create his magic. He will make life tough for him.
In stark contrast to the role Batty will perform, Keane and Scholes seem to be doing it all in your midfield. In your formation they are both way too advanced to effectively attack to the extent you are suggesting and counter Le Tissier in the spaces in which he is so deadly.
You are also completely neglecting Beckham who's withdrawn positioning adds an extra man to our midfield when we are not in possession. Beckham was fantastic in this role at United, hard working and with strong awareness in defence.
Could doesnt come into it though, we are judging him based on his performance in the league. Not his potential or would be performance if he had moved on from southampton. For all we know, he could have flopped at a bigger club where the play didnt go through him like a lot of players have.
I'm sorry but they're simply not. Bale and Beckham made more goals, scored more goals, worked harder and more effectively in defence and contribute more to my gameplan in their two different styles than Ginola and Overmars. You don't have a winger who provided the vision and passing of Beckham or his set piece ability.
I think Jones is excellent but I haven't said he was better than Ivanovic. I just think that Bale is much more effective and dangerous here than Overmars is and Jones was a better player than you're giving him credit for. People who watched him have already said as much on this thread.
Beckham provided a lot more than just his long ball. He could beat a man and I fancy his chances against this era Pearce. He was brilliant at putting an overlapping fullback away. He could link well with Modric and Le Tissier and he brought a good goal threat from in and around the area.
I'm not sure how that's relevant? I was simply refuting the claim that Ivanovic played right back (as he is today) and had Bale in his pocket on multiple occasions. He wasn't even on the same side of the pitch for 2 of the games, wasn't on the field for another and was right sided centre back for a 4th.
The beauty of having Batty in his position is that we can allow our fullbacks freedom and still retain 3 at the back. You have said yourself that Keane will be box to box and as such will be an extremely busy boy tracking backwards and forwards in your two man midfield. I'm not sure I'm the manager asking too much of his players here at all.
You need to have a read through my tactics. We are deliberately avoiding going toe to toe with your midfield. We understand that you will have plenty of the ball in the middle. Where you won't find space is in our final third. Here we will look to win the ball back through Batty and our defenders and move it quickly.
You will have possession but we will trust our shield, our defence and our keeper. We have the ball players, the pace and the penetration to be far more dangerous.
I couldn't have put it better myself. We are judging based on performance in the league.
Different players IMO. Bergkamp was a tier above, absolutely, but diarm has Batty in a pure DM role while you are facing Le Tissier behind Scholes back and heading towards Southgate.
On paper, there is a gulf in quality and, particularly, ability to control a midfield. But then you also have to factor in Beckham shits on either of your wide midfield players as far as midfield work is concerned, and the Bale-Cole flank will dominate your Ivanovic-Ginola flank. Quite easily, actually.
No worries about the double teaming. It's all great debate!
I was surprised he upgraded from Pallister to Rio, too, when he could have upgraded Batty or Le Tissier. I might have kept Batty to mark Bergkamp and just brought in Lampard for Le Tissier to help with the midfield scrap and get on the end of crosses from Beckham and Bale (playing left-wing)
You are way off here. That is not the case at all.
And who of Cole or Terry would I have dropped for Lampard?
