Its like guys that move from girlfriend to girlfriend, never settling, looking only for the qualities of that first love. Or a drug-addict. feck getting new players? What about getting the old players, old manager, old ceo, Thats what we really want
All we need is confidence
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As definite as a better manager given the current one is mismanaging the existing set of players.
Chelsea and Madrid have never committed to a relationship. They have new girlfriends every week.
Yes, so there are arguments for a new manager and arguments for new players. Both have under-performed consistently.
Absolutely. But the manager bears the ultimate responsibility, always. He is responsible for the team and players. Now if you think he's done a great job and feel he should continue, that's fine and I wholeheartedly disageee. However he can't be exonerated from bearing the responsibility of the quality , peformances and achievements of his own team. It's his job to build the team. And I think he's done a poor one.
I've never said that to anyone, either online or offline.
In his first year and a half, he did a fairly good job, and really had us moving in the right direction.
Over the past year and a half, he has made mistakes, along with Ed Woodward and plenty of the players.
I'm just pointing out that plenty of the players need to change, whoever manages them.
I can understand both sides of the debate to with regards to Jose in or Jose Out.
The biggest change that needs to happen now, in my opinion, is getting a director of football in, reviewing club operations top to bottom, and setting a a clear strategy for the next few years. Whoever is chosen to be the manager, the players, the academy coaches, the scouts ect...they all need to align to the strategy and the club moves in the same direction is terms of values and the way we play football.
It's likely that Jose won't be part of that in the future, but firing him now and bringing someone else in without the above being in place, may improve things ever so slightly in the short term but probably won't impact us in the long term. Bigger changes need to take place at the club.
To keep this post slightly on topic, I don't think the players are under-performing just because of confidence. There are many factors such as being used in the wrong way by the manager, not taking personal responsibility and always giving 100% on the pitch, and not being good enough after plenty of opportunities to prove otherwise.
Jose parking the bus every week isn't enough?
only if you take a route straight through what is known as Salford
Jose must be the only one that think this team is not capable of getting a point against West Ham. You are spamming.
Spam? It’s relevant to the topic. It’s not just confidence, it’s also the quality of some of our players, hence needing some new ones (whoever the manager is).
Yes but in those 3 games we only did better because we were behind. Were not playing like that from the start. Mourinho has to play alien to what he likes. We only won 1 of those 3 as well. I cant see where a 6-7 game run is going to come from.
I stated we need a new coach which you didn't deny only to proceed to quote and reply most of my posts on different threads with the same good ol phrase over and over again like you are trying to troll or get my attention rather than actually trying to make a point.
If you take a look at our team, you only find players that are being hindered, devoid of confidence, composure, a plan, unity and unable to play to their full potential.
Right now, nobody knows which players are good and those that are not, because the players are all performing at a similar level, an atrocious level. If it was 3, 4, 5, 6 players, then it'd be understandable. But it's the whole team, 25 first team players unable to complete a pass. We don't need new players until we actually get to see how good the current lot are. 3 or 4 players won't make any difference in the midst of over 20 underperforming players. How do you know the players that need replacing or are not good enough? Your 'we need new players' comes across as a 25 for 25 as that is the only way it makes sense in the midst of these chaos.
At this moment, a colossal percentage of the problem points at one man and he does not play.
You could argue we fall behind due to playing so cautiously due to lack of confidence. It’s optimistic but I’d like to hope we can string a run together maybe on the other side of these tough fixtures
I do not disagree, but you have to ask yourself where this lack of confidence stems from. The cause itself could be any number of reasons; a lack of faith in the manager's tactical approach, being poorly motivated or inspired, a deep-seated concern of being humiliated after the manager publically condemns their individual performance, or indeed a combination of the three. All of which seem to point directly at the manager and his approach.
I wish I shared your optimism, I really do, but I have seen nothing from this team that would indicate a 'positive run of results' is just around the corner.
I suspect confidence is a long way off for most of the players.
Before you can start talking about confidence you need to control a few games, have a few good results under your belt and be playing well. Confidence doesn't just happen on it's own. There isn't a coach in the world that just sprinkles confidence dust on players.
Confidence comes after you have been playing well for a while so to say "all we need is confidence" is somewhat overlooking the bleeding obvious.
Before you can start talking about confidence you need to control a few games, have a few good results under your belt and be playing well. Confidence doesn't just happen on it's own. There isn't a coach in the world that just sprinkles confidence dust on players.
Confidence comes after you have been playing well for a while so to say "all we need is confidence" is somewhat overlooking the bleeding obvious.
-Need a string of wins to gain confidence
-Can't get a string of wins without confidence
Don't worry friend. We'll gain all the confidence we need when we sack Jose for a manager with actual attacking vision.
-Can't get a string of wins without confidence
Don't worry friend. We'll gain all the confidence we need when we sack Jose for a manager with actual attacking vision.
A bullish thread OP. Sadly it was always going to be invaded and taken over with a Jose Out crowd.
I think Fundamentally it comes from 5 years of negativity, poor results and the feeling that every single team that faces you thinks they’re going to beat you. We’re in a massive half decade long rut. It’s so hard to get out of it it feels like false dawn after false dawn. I do feel that this year we have more players capable of giving a good season. Pogba, martial, fellaini, smalling, De gea, shaw, have all looked good individually, mata, also. Who knows,perhaps dalot and Fred will come in and settle. Under Moyes or Van Gaal I felt huge changes were always needed, with the current squad I don’t. Though I think not signing a right sided attacker and defender was a poor oversight
All we need is love. Too many "player coach" relationships, Mourinho needs to bond with the players more.
We do seem to lack confidence, but if we were a confident team the players would not automatically become better at passing, receiving the ball, crossing etc. The main difference between the two teams was not confidence. The main difference was quality. Their players is on average much better footballers than those at our club. Having confidence or a different approach to how we play football will not change this. The only things that can change this is what you do on the training field and buying new players. And relying solely on buying new players, as we have done in the recent years, is not sustainable nor is it working.
Players at other clubs improves and developes, the players in our first team do not. So i wonder what we are doing at Carrington?
Confidence is massive in sport to be fair. It makes a huge difference to a players level of form. Having said all that, confidence comes from results, training and morale. There's obviously something going wrong to cause most of our players to slump in confidence, don't think we as fans will ever really know (until one of them writes a book about it all obviously).
I agree with the Op.
We have excuses (looking for straws) from we finished 2nd to the spending of City. Yet we kept the team together and are currently 10th. The top 9 has not spend more then us (except for City) and the group should improve over time. Pogba came back a WC and England had a good run. Why the lack of motivation? I don't think anyone else is to blame but Mourinho as he fails to motivate and give the players confidence. Throwing them under the bus when it suits his agenda doesn't help at all. I am even surprised how there are STILL people defending him.
We have excuses (looking for straws) from we finished 2nd to the spending of City. Yet we kept the team together and are currently 10th. The top 9 has not spend more then us (except for City) and the group should improve over time. Pogba came back a WC and England had a good run. Why the lack of motivation? I don't think anyone else is to blame but Mourinho as he fails to motivate and give the players confidence. Throwing them under the bus when it suits his agenda doesn't help at all. I am even surprised how there are STILL people defending him.
Unfortunately, the two things seem inversely proportional. The only way I see confidence returning to this team is if Jose is really out.
The way we set up at the start of every game is so painful and infuriating to watch. It cannot be a lack of confidence in the players which gets us to start this way. We have already seen how dangerous the team can be when we take the game by the scruff of the neck. We need to start the game that way and I can't see that ever happening under Jose.
Yap, either people live in the past or either people are still fantasizing about the old and romantic Man United.
A lot of people on this forum seem to feel this way.
Unfortunately, a new coach is not going to be a magic bullet which solves our issues. He too, will be fired in 2 years.
Here's the logic:
Moyes failed >> LVG failed >> Jose is failing.
Each successive manager employed had a better CV than the previous, yet all of them end the same way.
The question I asked in 2 other threads was, "Jose has won the league title in every single club he managed, for the last 20 years. Why is he failing to do this at MUFC?" Nobody can come up with a reasonable explanation.
A serial winner who can't win the league for us. For me, if Jose can't do it, then there is something seriously wrong at MUFC (either with our board, or with the player culture at the club).
IMO, if Pep joined us, he too would not win the league title.
There is no doubt the boardroom needs fixed asap. Jose has won the league everywhere he's went is the rallying call, he's usually in and out in around 3 seasons as well. His modus operandi is usually to come in spend big, win and get out/sacked. The game has changed very quickly, his tactics the other night were to let Juve have as much of the ball as they wanted until they basically got into our final 3rd. There was too much gap between our defence and mid, meaning we are essentially camped in our own half. The modern game is high press, you seen the little bit of change we got when we did play that. Bonnuci coughed up possession on Rashford, Barzagli nudging slightly on Rashford in the penalty box. Chiellini grabbing Lukaku's shirt in the box. There's 3 mistakes they made under little pressure, imagine going hard at them for 90 mins. We can't play a pressing game with Lukaku, to play the pressing game the midfield need to move up as unit, Matic won't press and I don't think Pogba would either. Confidence or not, we don't have the set up right both in the boardroom and with the team/management.
Why people are in the Jose Out campaign is quite simple. Just look at the number of new managers are rivals have brought in. Guardiola, Klopp and Conte roughly came in at around the same time as Mourinho. Out of which Conte and Guardiola won the league in the first and second season respectively.
Even if we consider them as outliers (which at least Conte is not), how does the style and identity deployed by Sarri and Emery within the first few games equate with our lack of identity even after 3 seasons. The problems with Jose have been two-fold, lack of success and lack of a genuine playing style. Either of the two would be sufficient for most of our fans to back our manager. Nobody is deluded enough to think that we should be winning leagues and CLs every year. In my opinion, we are the only team which neither plays possession based football nor counter attacking.
Add in the arrogance of the finger pointing gestures. There has got to be something we should have as a silver lining. It is only when there is no hope remaining that the fans on this forum have unanimously turned against him.
We should be support the manager but not at the cost of the welfare of the club. We should not be genuinely clutching at straws to find reasons such as "if Pep joined us, he too would not win the league title" to let him continue. Jose has shown nothing on why he deserves to stay on with the club
Best answer I got was "the game passed him by and his style doesn't work anymore. 2015 wasn't that long ago Ffs.
the reply to that is Leicester won it the following season, the same season Jose was sacked in. Times change very quickly...
So what? Jose didn't win by fluke. Hes won wherever he's gone. If his approach was outdated he wouldn't have brought us to 2nd place last season.
Tell that to Arsenal fans under Wenger. Who was also outdated.
You think Wengers silverware is comparable to Mourinho? Is this a joke?
What. Does that have to do with what YOU said above.
You going to give me 3 fingers like Mourinho too (pause).
I said Jose has won wherever he's gone, and won in recent history. Wenger didn't win the league for over a decade. Jose won his last title 3 years ago. Then he won Europa Cup and EFL Cup and made an FA Cup Final.
Barring one season with Chelsea he always finishes in the top 2, which Wenger doesn't.
You comparing him to Wenger makes no sense from any angle whatsoever.
You said he came second so his tactics can’t be outdated. I pointed out Arsenal finished second with outdated tactics so obviously your wrong.
I must honestly say, I don't have the skill or knowledge to be able to judge Mourinho correctly. In my opinion, it would be better to part ways, because even if it is just confidence that you need, isn't that part of the jobdescription for a coach as well?
Whenever I find myself in such situations though, when my knowledge is not enough, I just refer to the following tool: I just watch the results.
Mourinho is with your for a long time now and if you want him or not boils down to three simple questions:
1. Were the results sufficient? Were you happy with the results?
2. Did you like and enjoy the entertainment that you have seen?
3. What about the players in your team? Did your coach make them confident, strong and in the end of the day, better players? Did he pick the right players to strengthen your squad?
If all questions are answered with a "no", it is safe to say that the coach and the team should part or you should re-think your expectations. Because it can very well be possible that they are too high. The PL is a very, very contested league, this is the reason why we from the other countries watch closely. So it can always happen that you are not a part of the top 4. And if expecations are high and you are unhappy with your team and your players, it can always lead to frustration, which will in the very end, catch up with your team as well.
The integral things to successfull football are the following:
1. the players need to have fun playing, it should be visible that they love their team and the game
2. you obviously need above average players with a few exceptional ones that carry the team
3. the leading management, coach, director or however you call it in English, they need to have a vision, an identity
4. the supporters make their team stronger by supporting, not by criticising and whistling (not that you guys do that, just a general idea, even though it is safe to say that supporters are unhappy with the club right now)
From an outside perspective, I think that your players are good enough, not on all positions, but with your side, you should be able to reach your goals. I agree that the players seem insecure.
What I miss the most and forgive me for my openness, because I really think that Manchester United is an amazing club, is an identity and a vision. You buy great players, but do those players fit into the style that you want to see? I sometimes have the feeling that you just buy players, because they are hot at the moment. Sometimes having much money can actually be a burden. Because you can just pour out money and you don't look for what you really need.
I might be very wrong here, because I don't watch your games every matchday and it is just from my subjective perspective. But it seems to me that exchanging the coach might not be enough, maybe the club needs to have a look at the management above Mourinho.
Whenever I find myself in such situations though, when my knowledge is not enough, I just refer to the following tool: I just watch the results.
Mourinho is with your for a long time now and if you want him or not boils down to three simple questions:
1. Were the results sufficient? Were you happy with the results?
2. Did you like and enjoy the entertainment that you have seen?
3. What about the players in your team? Did your coach make them confident, strong and in the end of the day, better players? Did he pick the right players to strengthen your squad?
If all questions are answered with a "no", it is safe to say that the coach and the team should part or you should re-think your expectations. Because it can very well be possible that they are too high. The PL is a very, very contested league, this is the reason why we from the other countries watch closely. So it can always happen that you are not a part of the top 4. And if expecations are high and you are unhappy with your team and your players, it can always lead to frustration, which will in the very end, catch up with your team as well.
The integral things to successfull football are the following:
1. the players need to have fun playing, it should be visible that they love their team and the game
2. you obviously need above average players with a few exceptional ones that carry the team
3. the leading management, coach, director or however you call it in English, they need to have a vision, an identity
4. the supporters make their team stronger by supporting, not by criticising and whistling (not that you guys do that, just a general idea, even though it is safe to say that supporters are unhappy with the club right now)
From an outside perspective, I think that your players are good enough, not on all positions, but with your side, you should be able to reach your goals. I agree that the players seem insecure.
What I miss the most and forgive me for my openness, because I really think that Manchester United is an amazing club, is an identity and a vision. You buy great players, but do those players fit into the style that you want to see? I sometimes have the feeling that you just buy players, because they are hot at the moment. Sometimes having much money can actually be a burden. Because you can just pour out money and you don't look for what you really need.
I might be very wrong here, because I don't watch your games every matchday and it is just from my subjective perspective. But it seems to me that exchanging the coach might not be enough, maybe the club needs to have a look at the management above Mourinho.
Arsenal finished 2nd in a year where all competitors were in transition and still managed 10 pts less than us when we finished 2nd. Add to that the fact that Jose has brought home trophies in short time, it's daft to say the game passed him by.
Morever they haven't finished 2nd more than once in the last 10 years. Jose only has 2 if you count this year and his Chelsea sacking. Very bizzare comparison you're making.
We are currently 10th. There is nothing bizarre in comparing a has been with a has been. We finished 2nd 20 points behind the leaders, if that’s not a poor showing I don’t know what is. We got schooled in a FA Cup final to a team that was dogshite all season, yet we persist with tactics which allow the opposition to dominate us in possession.
Your not blind i’m Sure you watch other sides play. We are terrible, last season except for 4-0 FC was terrible too.
Yeah we are 10th. Shit start. It happens, the game hasn't suddenly passed our manager by because of it.
We finished on 81 points ffs. Behind a side that spent 250m more than we did
Obviously they'd run away with it
81 pts a very respectable points tally for someone in his second season. And we didn't get schooled in the final at all. What the hell are you on? We lost 1-0 in a game where we had 18 shots to 6 and 67% possession. Get a grip for God's sake.
Confidence will improve the team, it won't get rid of our long term problems. Last season was built on confidence, a lot of the season before was confidence based too, but in both seasons, the moment a loss came our way, or hard times, they'll have problems.