American Cops Doing What They Do Best

Skizzo

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You're making a lot of shit up here. There's no way the overwhelming sentiment of the public or BLM movement about dead police officers is 'good, they deserved it'. Just because a few arseholes might have said it doesn't mean you get to dismiss the whole movement the same as we don't get to tar the entire PD of a city as racists because of a few bad apples.
There's a whole outcry about officers needing to publicly condemn these racist officers, and if they don't, it's a systemic problem and the entire police force is corrupt. I ask why the same standard isn't held for the leaders of this movement in regards to black people out killing officers, and you say we can't tar them all with the same brush.

If you're gonna sit there and try and call bullshit on me asking why they shouldn't be held to a higher standard, then we can end the discussion on that note. Cheers.
 

Skizzo

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No issues with having a discussion with you @Grinner. Always enjoy the fact you're able to engage in conversation about the various topics at hand. I'll hold my hands up and say that I'm probably a little too close to the matter at hand sometimes and can get a bit too passionate about the topic, but if I'm being told I'm making shit up, when I don't think it's unfair to ask for a higher standard across the board (generally speaking, not the caf) then I don't want to engage further in case it ends up regressing into a pissing contest.
 

villain

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What they're seeking, and how they're going about it, are two separate things. They won't ever achieve what they're seeking if they continue to approach it in this same way.

They're taking the focus completely off the behavior of their own race and basically saying "we're behaving this way because of the police." Which isn't the case at all. Is there a problem with racism within certain departments? Sure, I don't think anyone would deny that.

I don't see what attempts they are trying to make to improve relations with police. Granted it's a two way street, but you have members calling for the murder of officers, celebrating officer deaths, posting about killing white people in general. I'm sure those people will suddenly be upstanding citizens if they remove the issues with police?

How many deaths would be prevented if you completely erase any racist police officers from a department? How many deaths would be prevented with people focusing on communities and not letting people run around pointing firearms or weapons at officers or other civilians?

Maybe I'm looking too "big picture" and expecting more of them than they're willing to do. If they think they're going to make the kind of difference that they want by shutting down freeways and protesting every single incident of a black person being shot by police, even when some of those wlare justified, then they'll be disappointed with the outcome. Of course, if it fails, they'll just claim it's because of racism anyway.
Exactly what members of BLM do this?

Or are you just talking about examples of black people in general?

The likes of Deray, Shaun King, Netta - DONT advocate violence of any kind, nor do they talk about police brutality explicitly when it comes to white cops.

If you're going to use that for such a baseless argument that only serves to deflect from the actual issue - then we might as well talk about all the cops who refer to blacks as the N word and latinx's as Spics and what not.

Because there's decades of evidence of cops doing that.
 

villain

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Are there actually people going around with the outright aim of revenge killings against cops?
No there's not.

Its media rhetoric that BLM is some extreme violent group who wants to kill cops, it's ridiculous that people actually believe it but it serves the purpose of deflecting from the actual issue of BLM and limiting objective public support for the cause.

Are there radical people who express their own individual opinions on social media, who happen to be black? Yes.
Doesn't mean they're part of BLM though. And you find extremism & radical opinions in just about any social group no matter what the cause is.
 

Skizzo

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Exactly what members of BLM do this?

Or are you just talking about examples of black people in general?

The likes of Deray, Shaun King, Netta - DONT advocate violence of any kind, nor do they talk about police brutality explicitly when it comes to white cops.

If you're going to use that for such a baseless argument that only serves to deflect from the actual issue - then we might as well talk about all the cops who refer to blacks as the N word and latinx's as Spics and what not.

Because there's decades of evidence of cops doing that.
Did they have nothing to do with the protests in Minneapolis where they chanted about "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon?". The day after an officer was murdered.

Did the BLM Twitter account not post picture of members and activists wearing shirts saying "Assata taught me"?

Have I missed them publicly denouncing the acts of black people who are killing officers? Or does their outrage only go one way?

I haven't deflected anything, and as I have the whole time, I've said both sides need to come together. However, as said above, to constantly criticize police for not throwing aside their fellow officers who may have done wrong, the other side should be just as accountable for their own people and actions.
 

Silva

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Did they have nothing to do with the protests in Minneapolis where they chanted about "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon?". The day after an officer was murdered.
Tried to find if this has anything to do with BLM's rhetoric, and all I can find is article after article about 3 white men and an Asian guy shooting at BLM protestors that day. Seems it's still safer than ever to be police. At worst it looks like they were being insensitive towards cops, not causing any actual danger for them.
 

Skizzo

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@vi1lain im heading to bed momentarily, so if you want to continue this discussion later, we can by all means.

You seem to think I have some kind of bias against you (which you asked me about before) or perhaps think I'm blindly trying to discredit the views of BLM.

Hopefully you realize that all I've suggested is a different approach may help garner more support for their cause, and the change they want. That, and to stop protesting every single incident of an officer involved shooting with a black person. Its not always an innocent black teen who gets shot. I find it hard to get behind and support a group who selectively chooses which black lives matter.
 

Skizzo

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Tried to find if this has anything to do with BLM's rhetoric, and all I can find is article after article about 3 white men and an Asian guy shooting at BLM protestors that day. Seems it's still safer than ever to be police. At worst it looks like they were being insensitive towards cops, not causing any actual danger for them.
Always makes me crack a bit of a smile when someone throws out how safe it is to be an officer. Not getting into that discussion again, but it's still a bit of a ridiculous comment to make.

If you were able to find article after article on that, you should have been able to find articles on FYF911 and FukYoFlag. They'll be the articles about the radio show with callers suggesting to lynch white people when they're alone, telling a veteran they'll gut his pregnant wife, and the pictures wiping their ass with the American flag.

I never said BLM were responsible for going out on murder sprees, but asked why they don't condemn the actions of those that do, in hopes of bringing the opposite sides together.

I agree that there's an issue with violence in black communities. Both with police, and each other. I don't think I've ever denied there are issues with police at times. Seems whenever the discussion turns into anything other than that, shit hits the fan and it all comes back to police are the problem.

Hardly worth having a discussion in here. A video up of an officer involved incident that could be bad, post after post of outrage. Any time I come and post a video of an officer being ambushed, or doing something to save a life, no one gives a feck. If you just want this to bash on police, by all means. It certainly isn't worth the effort to constantly have to try and defend my profession and the good things I know myself, and thousands of others, do on a daily basis.

Those will be my last comments in this thread.
 

Silva

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Always makes me crack a bit of a smile when someone throws out how safe it is to be an officer. Not getting into that discussion again, but it's still a bit of a ridiculous comment to make.

If you were able to find article after article on that, you should have been able to find articles on FYF911 and FukYoFlag. They'll be the articles about the radio show with callers suggesting to lynch white people when they're alone, telling a veteran they'll gut his pregnant wife, and the pictures wiping their ass with the American flag.

I never said BLM were responsible for going out on murder sprees, but asked why they don't condemn the actions of those that do, in hopes of bringing the opposite sides together.

I agree that there's an issue with violence in black communities. Both with police, and each other. I don't think I've ever denied there are issues with police at times. Seems whenever the discussion turns into anything other than that, shit hits the fan and it all comes back to police are the problem.

Hardly worth having a discussion in here. A video up of an officer involved incident that could be bad, post after post of outrage. Any time I come and post a video of an officer being ambushed, or doing something to save a life, no one gives a feck. If you just want this to bash on police, by all means. It certainly isn't worth the effort to constantly have to try and defend my profession and the good things I know myself, and thousands of others, do on a daily basis.

Those will be my last comments in this thread.
But.. it is safer than ever, fewer cops are being killed now then in past years. Cops murders are demonstrably lower than ever, 2015 was the best year ever in that respect. That's not to say it's safe, just that relatively speaking it's safer now than last year, which was safer than the year before it, and it's been like that for decades.

Flag burning is a staple of any protest movement, so I don't see how that's extraordinarily violent. And I really can't find anything that backs you up apart from racist blog sites and fox news.. Even the FYF911 site itself is full of racists comments against black people.

Surely you can see why they're angry though? Police response to (poor) black people is systematically incredibly violent. And the justice system shits on them from ever greater heights. Besides, who the hell is going to pay attention to an uneventful protest?.. They're yet to actually cause any violence though. If focusing solely on that one issue, systemic abuse against black people is what gets them attention, then that's what they should continue doing.
 

villain

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Did they have nothing to do with the protests in Minneapolis where they chanted about "pigs in a blanket, fry em like bacon?". The day after an officer was murdered.

Did the BLM Twitter account not post picture of members and activists wearing shirts saying "Assata taught me"?

Have I missed them publicly denouncing the acts of black people who are killing officers? Or does their outrage only go one way?

I haven't deflected anything, and as I have the whole time, I've said both sides need to come together. However, as said above, to constantly criticize police for not throwing aside their fellow officers who may have done wrong, the other side should be just as accountable for their own people and actions.
Are they at every single protest? No of course not that's impossible, nor can they control the actions of others.

However they don't and never have advocated violence towards police officers or violent protests. BLM as a movement has never advocated violence, and nor have they ever been silent on the issues facing black communities.

And i'm not sure if you've done research on them or not, it doesn't sound as though you have outside of the lazy rhetoric that gets branded about. But what those 3 specific people are aiming for is very different to whats said about them.
http://www.wetheprotesters.org/exe-sum-and-overview - provides a very brief overview of Deray & Netta's (and oters) aims, which talk about the collective community (blacks, police & people of all colours) coming together and eradicating the problem. But also many structured programs & initiatives to give the voiceless their chance to be heard in a non-violent and non threatening way.

When there were violent protests in Ferguson I remember Deray saying something along the lines of vandalism from protest comes about as an expression of anger due to current climate & the voiceless continuing to not be heard.
But when football & hockey fans vandalise their communities in celebration of their team winning a cup of whatever it's only seen as "rowdy, drunken behaviour" (See: SF Giants winning the world series in 2015, Vancouver Canucks lose in the Stanley Cup Final for example) when certain sections of black people riot they're animals who don't care about their neighbourhood (See Ferguson for example) then the police come out in tanks and SWAT gear & the conservative narrative is that only black people do this to their communities. And they only care about black lives & black communities when its a white cop that does something negative towards them.

It's such a lazy & baseless argument, because most people who say it have no idea bout the countless programs that black people do in black communities for the benefit of the community (it's not just targeted towards black people because in black communities you usually find people of all colours)

You mentioned Assata Shakur of the BPP - well the Black Panthers brought free education, free breakfast, free childcare, free travel to those who needed it the most in black communities - which is exactly what you're talking about. They supported black businesses, black banks, & black schools. Does that ever get mentioned in the same breath when someone talks about The Black Panthers? Nope. But that's just one argument i'm not going to talk about the Black Panthers or Assata Shakur in here because again it's the first argument people go to, trying to pin the Black Panthers as some sort of extremist black supremacist organisation that hated white people & tried to kill them purposely for no reason other than being white.

The fact is when black people do positive things within the black community it doesn't get mentioned. Al Sharpton for example who gets crucified in Conservative media - has made many trip to Chicago to try and address the violence, but if you were to believe the media rhetoric - Sharpton & other black leaders only care when it its a white cop. Not that they do it for the purpose of fame & recognition, but when it comes to conversations about police brutality and similar topic the first argument is "Well why don't you look after your community first" even though we are. Are we at the point of 0% crime in black communities? No that's never going to happen and it shouldn't have to happen in order for black people to feel aggrieved about police brutality, or for our voices to be heard objectively.

Last time I checked the stats (around a year ago now probably) black on black crime has actually fallen over the past decades faster than white on white crime, and the percentage at which black people kill each other and white people kill each other is roughly the same. But that doesn't get mentioned - only that black on black crime is out of control and black people are doing nothing about it.

Well quite frankly police brutality has been out of control for decades now too.
 

villain

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@vi1lain im heading to bed momentarily, so if you want to continue this discussion later, we can by all means.

You seem to think I have some kind of bias against you (which you asked me about before) or perhaps think I'm blindly trying to discredit the views of BLM.

Hopefully you realize that all I've suggested is a different approach may help garner more support for their cause, and the change they want. That, and to stop protesting every single incident of an officer involved shooting with a black person. Its not always an innocent black teen who gets shot. I find it hard to get behind and support a group who selectively chooses which black lives matter.
Since our discussion I don't think you have a bias against me or BLM.

But considering you keep suggesting things which have been done, or are currently attempting to be done by BLM, it suggests that you're not actually doing the research on the matter.

You're a police man, I understand the need to feel defensive, nobody understands your job except your fellow policemen.

I'm a black woman, and while I don't understand what it's like to be black in America, being black wherever you are except countries in Africa - is a similar experience, so it's my natural instinct to be defensive too, and I'm not going to sit here, and pretend as though I don't see opinions being branded about as facts.

Yes both sides needs to come together, but I don't personally see attempts by police officers (of any race, I don't care) to eradicate brutality against people of colour, racism or take accountability for their actions. It's still very much a non-transparent line of work that seeks to protect its own, even if its at the expense of the innocent (whether they are criminals or not, innocent until proven guilty). But that's my personal opinion i'm not speaking as though this is factual.

If you know of, or are part of any program by police to seek to put an end to police brutality, or police officers to be held accountable for their actions if they are deemed too violent then by all means I want to know.
 

villain

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For a little balance, I saw this video on my facebook feed earlier this morning and thought it was great:


There was another video I saw a while back of a police man who got called out to some kids who were playing basketball in the streets, one of the neighbours didn't like it I guess. But instead the cop joined in and played a game of 21 with the kids, and has actually raised money to build a specific place nearby their homes where they can play basketball safely. Which I thought was beautiful.

When police officers interact with those who they police it builds trust and members of the community have a greater sense of accountability for their actions.

If kids grow up and only see cops act in a violent or negative way, they will grow up with the mindset to fear and distrust them.
 

Gol123

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Watching a documentary on police brutality and racial profiling in America.

A guy was choked to death by 7 police officers despite his pleas that he couldn't breath. The feck?
 

Gol123

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To be fair to the police though, he was a big chap and posed a physical "threat"./S
They choked him until he died. That's like serial killer levels of sick. At least there is an emotional disattachment with a gun that makes it easier to perform. Wrapping your arm around somebodies throat until theyou are choked of all life whilst they desperately plead for you to stop takes a certain level of psychopathy.
 

facund

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At least this cop got four years after the teen suffered brain damage from the tasing.
Whilst the whole video is disturbing it is the point when he callously drops/tosses the guys lifeless body on to the floor that alarmed me most.
 

sglowrider

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Open carry at schools started yet?

I wonder what will happen.... university campuses on a saturday night...
 

Il Prete Rosso

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No there's not.

Its media rhetoric that BLM is some extreme violent group who wants to kill cops, it's ridiculous that people actually believe it but it serves the purpose of deflecting from the actual issue of BLM and limiting objective public support for the cause.

Are there radical people who express their own individual opinions on social media, who happen to be black? Yes.
Doesn't mean they're part of BLM though. And you find extremism & radical opinions in just about any social group no matter what the cause is.

In America:

Black Panthers: Bad
KKK: It was quite okay and lawful for members of Congress and elected officials to be part of this group.
 

villain

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In America:

Black Panthers: Bad
KKK: It was quite okay and lawful for members of Congress and elected officials to be part of this group.
It's maddening that the Panthers even get compared to the KKK to begin with, the whole situation is a joke :lol:
 

langster

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This one sounds like a real shocker. The cop was being investigated for 3 other incidents too (not shooting related afaik) But to shoot an unarmed mother in her pyjamas from his car makes no sense whatsoever. It's the last think that was needed too as if US Muslims haven't got enough to deal with as it is without this. Some of the comments I have seen on social media are absolutely sickening but unfortunately nothing new and expected.