An England Cap

[Bondi77]

I have just seen that Bellingham has been selected for England and while I congratulate the young man I am left shaking my head regarding what a player has to do to earn an England Cap.
It seems to me that Southgate picks so many players it cheapens the right to represent England when back in the day it was one of the pinnacles of a players career.
I know there is such an emphasis on club football these days and that is evident when players withdraw from internationals when chipping a fingernail.

 

[Shane88]

Do players actually get physical caps?

 

[Pow]

Do players actually get physical caps?

Yes

 

[Shane88]

Yes

Hmm, always assumed it was something that happened in the old days and they stopped but kept the saying.

 

[Chipper]

Hmm, always assumed it was something that happened in the old days and they stopped but kept the saying.

Here's what they look like in case you were curious:

 

[Sean_RedDevil]

I have just seen that Bellingham has been selected for England and while I congratulate the young man I am left shaking my head regarding what a player has to do to earn an England Cap.
It seems to me that Southgate picks so many players it cheapens the right to represent England when back in the day it was one of the pinnacles of a players career.
I know there is such an emphasis on club football these days and that is evident when players withdraw from internationals when chipping a fingernail.

That was 30 years ago

Camavinga was 17 too (Since a few hours he is 18) and i reckon no one in France had a problem with that because he is a special talent......the same goes for Bellingham.

And Phillips is injured and if Southgate wants a replacement in the squad for Ward-Prowse then Bellingham is actually the next players on the list.

 

[MuFc_1992]

Here's what they look like in case you were curious:

If that picture doesn't cheapen the value of an England cap, than nothing else will..

 

[Gazza]

I have just seen that Bellingham has been selected for England and while I congratulate the young man I am left shaking my head regarding what a player has to do to earn an England Cap.
It seems to me that Southgate picks so many players it cheapens the right to represent England when back in the day it was one of the pinnacles of a players career.
I know there is such an emphasis on club football these days and that is evident when players withdraw from internationals when chipping a fingernail.

Sounds very grandiose, however I feel you may be putting too much weight on a Nations League match between England and Belgium.

Always struck me as odd the hyper-grandeur that takes over when people talk about national teams/the England team in particular. Of course they are representing their country, but it's only football. Matches are on the calendar and depending on when they are played there will be different squads based on who is available, new ideas the manager wants to try out, and who is on form etc. Look in the past 50 years and you will find literally tens of players who got caps for England and never became regulars. Does it mean they were "unworthy" of a cap? Maybe, I suspect some people just overthink these things and give them too much importance.

 

[Snow]

That was 30 years ago

Camavinga was 17 too (Since a few hours he is 18) and i reckon no one in France had a problem with that because he is a special talent......the same goes for Bellingham.

And Phillips is injured and if Southgate wants a replacement in the squad for Ward-Prowse then Bellingham is actually the next players on the list.

OP has a point. Bellingham has played less than half the minutes this season with Dortmund and it's his 2nd ever season. Hudson-Odoi got his cap after less than 20 matches for Chelsea. Not exactly lit the Premier League on fire since then.

What good is it for the players to be capped immediately? Why aren't they playing more for the U21's? He can get better experience there, bonding more with players that he's going to play with in the future rather than not play with England. Chalobah got his first call-up in the summer after sitting on the bench for Chelsea the whole previous season. Was capped 14 months later and in those 14 months he played less than 10 games for Watford. Lewis Cook got his cap shortly into his Bournemouth career and hasn't gotten the call-up since.

That's Southgate in a nutshell.

 

[paraguayo]

We paid for your cap..

 

[Sean_RedDevil]

OP has a point. Bellingham has played less than half the minutes this season with Dortmund and it's his 2nd ever season. Hudson-Odoi got his cap after less than 20 matches for Chelsea. Not exactly lit the Premier League on fire since then.

What good is it for the players to be capped immediately? Why aren't they playing more for the U21's? He can get better experience there, bonding more with players that he's going to play with in the future rather than not play with England. Chalobah got his first call-up in the summer after sitting on the bench for Chelsea the whole previous season. Was capped 14 months later and in those 14 months he played less than 10 games for Watford. Lewis Cook got his cap shortly into his Bournemouth career and hasn't gotten the call-up since.

That's Southgate in a nutshell.

Hello Bellingham plays for Dortmund and has just played well for 30 minutes against Bayern Munich......we don't talk here about a call-up for our James Garner (Currently on loan at Watford for the Non-Manchester-United-supporters).

Yep Hudson-Odoi's call-up was too early.

Cook's call-up were for friendlies, he played pretty good for Bournemouth (He was amazing at the U20 World Cup in 2017) and the defensive central midfield options weren't amazing in the last years......i'm sure he would play right now for a club like Everton or so without his massive injury problems (So far he has a good season at Bournemouth).

Most of the "Bonding more with players that he's going to play with in the future" players are already in the senior squad.......Nketiah, Hudson-Odoi, Lamptey, Aarons, Justin, Eze (I think he will play for Nigeria), Guehi, Godfrey, Jones or Musiala should all have a chance in the next 1-2 years but none of them have a chance right now for various reasons.

And again Ward-Prowse is injured and if Southgate needs a new player in the squad then who else?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

OP has a point. Bellingham has played less than half the minutes this season with Dortmund and it's his 2nd ever season. Hudson-Odoi got his cap after less than 20 matches for Chelsea. Not exactly lit the Premier League on fire since then.

What good is it for the players to be capped immediately? Why aren't they playing more for the U21's? He can get better experience there, bonding more with players that he's going to play with in the future rather than not play with England. Chalobah got his first call-up in the summer after sitting on the bench for Chelsea the whole previous season. Was capped 14 months later and in those 14 months he played less than 10 games for Watford. Lewis Cook got his cap shortly into his Bournemouth career and hasn't gotten the call-up since.

That's Southgate in a nutshell.

Chalobah is the record holder for England youth appearances with around 100 and was coming back off a crutiate injury. He was called up as a thank you for his commitment (he and his brother have never turned down a single call-up at any level) and to give him a boost in a difficult moment in his career.

Hudson Odoi’s career was derailed by one of the most serious injuries in the game.

A few u20 World Cup winners with lots of youth cap were given a friendly game cap, Cook was one. He’s also another player with serious injuries.

This break most international teams have called up large squads because of the extra game and the nature of the season. Lot's of fringe players will be getting caps for many nations. It’s no surprise that Bellingham has got a call. He’s playing in the Champions League. He'll likely only appear in a b-team game against Ireland regardless.

All that said, an international call up is not a predictor of how a player's career will progress.

 

[Chipper]

If that picture doesn't cheapen the value of an England cap, than nothing else will..

Haha, you could say that.

Was fresh in my memory as someone posted the video of where that came from a month or two back and I ended up watching it. It was Lingard doing MTV's "Cribs" tv programme where he shows you round his house and whatnot.

 

[horsechoker]

If that picture doesn't cheapen the value of an England cap, than nothing else will..

Far from the worst player to receive one.

 

[K Stand Knut]

That's Southgate in a nutshell.

horrendously unfair to blame Southgate.

this nonsense has been going on for years

 

[Lynty]

I hope they follow tradition and retire whatever number shirt he wears.

 

[Acrobat7]

It friendlies and the freaking Nations League in the middle of Corona season. Of course everybody is getting called up. You have Ridle Baku in the Germany squad and no, i don’t know either who that is.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

They should bring back Lingard. He need games to find form and we are not going to give it to him.

 

[horsechoker]

It friendlies and the freaking Nations League in the middle of Corona season. Of course everybody is getting called up. You have Ridle Baku in the Germany squad and no, i don’t know either who that is.

It's a mystery

 

[Chipper]

horrendously unfair to blame Southgate.

this nonsense has been going on for years

I do think he's giving out new caps at quick rate, heard something on the radio about that recently.

However, like others have said the Nations League wasn't thing that existed for all his predecessors so it's worth bearing that in mind too.

For the stats geeks:

Manager​	Players Used	Games	Ratio​
Southgate​	73​	46​	1.59​
Hodgson​	70​	56​	1.25​
Capello​	63​	42​	1.50​
McClaren​	45​	18​	2.50​
Sven​	72​	67​	1.07​
Keegan​	47​	18​	2.61​
Hoddle​	41​	28​	1.46​
Venables​	47​	23​	2.04​
Graham Taylor​	59​	38​	1.55​
Robson​	84​	95​	0.88​

So he's not used players at the highest rate of all managers, although all 3 that beat him were in charge for fewer than 25 games. I'd instinctively think that newer managers with fewer games under their belts would try out more players before settling down so that Keegan's, McClaren's and Venables' ratio would have gone down over time although not necessarily lower than Southgate. Then again, perhaps they wouldn't have gone down at all and Keegan and McClarens ratio in particular could just be an indicator that things were rather chaotic during their tenure.

Left off Howard Wilkinson, Peter Taylor, Stuart Pearce and Sam Allardyce from the list as they only had 1 or 2 games each respectively.

 

[Acrobat7]

It's a mystery

It is indeed such a glorious name.

 

[TwoSheds]

I'm a lot more worried by the fact that Southgate seems to have an addiction to defensive midfielders. Yet again his plan seems likely to be zero attacking threat and hope Kane or someone does something.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

It is indeed such a glorious name.

Maybe that's why he get the called-up.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Does anyone else think of the actress Lynda Bellingham when they see his name? Or just me.

firstly these games should have been called off. Is that 4 internationals, by mid November and we’ve only had 6 or 7 league games?

I like the idea of the nations league, and it’s better than the mindless friendliest we have had for decades. But in a season like this, it should have been the first thing to go. Needless travel and needless games that mean nothing. It’s ridiculous.

with that in mind, I’d expect a lot more players than usual to be called up and playing, and if that gives established players a week off, and we give a youngster who is not playing every week a game, that works out well.

 

[Acole9]

Does anyone else think of the actress Lynda Bellingham when they see his name? Or just me.

firstly these games should have been called off. Is that 4 internationals, by mid November and we’ve only had 6 or 7 league games?

I like the idea of the nations league, and it’s better than the mindless friendliest we have had for decades. But in a season like this, it should have been the first thing to go. Needless travel and needless games that mean nothing. It’s ridiculous.

with that in mind, I’d expect a lot more players than usual to be called up and playing, and if that gives established players a week off, and we give a youngster who is not playing every week a game, that works out well.

No you're not the only one, I do too. No idea why.

 

[SirAF]

If that picture doesn't cheapen the value of an England cap, than nothing else will..

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Always felt this under Sven seeing the likes of Michael Ricketts win caps

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I do think he's giving out new caps at quick rate, heard something on the radio about that recently.

However, like others have said the Nations League wasn't thing that existed for all his predecessors so it's worth bearing that in mind too.

For the stats geeks:

Manager​	Players Used	Games	Ratio​
Southgate​	73​	46​	1.59​
Hodgson​	70​	56​	1.25​
Capello​	63​	42​	1.50​
McClaren​	45​	18​	2.50​
Sven​	72​	67​	1.07​
Keegan​	47​	18​	2.61​
Hoddle​	41​	28​	1.46​
Venables​	47​	23​	2.04​
Graham Taylor​	59​	38​	1.55​
Robson​	84​	95​	0.88​

So he's not used players at the highest rate of all managers, although all 3 that beat him were in charge for fewer than 25 games. I'd instinctively think that newer managers with fewer games under their belts would try out more players before settling down so that Keegan's, McClaren's and Venables' ratio would have gone down over time although not necessarily lower than Southgate. Then again, perhaps they wouldn't have gone down at all and Keegan and McClarens ratio in particular could just be an indicator that things were rather chaotic during their tenure.

Left off Howard Wilkinson, Peter Taylor, Stuart Pearce and Sam Allardyce from the list as they only had 1 or 2 games each respectively.

There were loads of new caps in Southgate's last squad so that figure has been inflated somewhat by Covid. Add to England having an ever growing talent pool during his tenure. Jake Livermore was getting in the squad a few years ago whilst James Maddison, Bamford or AWB can't even get a call up in a 30 man squad today.

 

[Snow]

Chalobah is the record holder for England youth appearances with around 100 and was coming back off a crutiate injury. He was called up as a thank you for his commitment (he and his brother have never turned down a single call-up at any level) and to give him a boost in a difficult moment in his career.

Hudson Odoi’s career was derailed by one of the most serious injuries in the game.

A few u20 World Cup winners with lots of youth cap were given a friendly game cap, Cook was one. He’s also another player with serious injuries.

This break most international teams have called up large squads because of the extra game and the nature of the season. Lot's of fringe players will be getting caps for many nations. It’s no surprise that Bellingham has got a call. He’s playing in the Champions League. He'll likely only appear in a b-team game against Ireland regardless.

All that said, an international call up is not a predictor of how a player's career will progress.

I still don't see a singe argument here why young players with less than a season of experience are getting called up. Them getting injured is irrelevant to the little effort it took to get called up.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I still don't see a singe argument here why young players with less than a season of experience are getting called up. Them getting injured is irrelevant to the little effort it took to get called up.

It’s a big reason why they haven’t progressed to a standard that you seem to imply is expected if they get called up early.

Although personally I never rated Cook he’d played actually played over 100 senior games and was into his second season as a Premier League player when he was called up. Add to that over 50 youth caps for England whilst captaining the U17s to a European Championship win plus the U20s to World Cup victory, is it really much of a surprise that the England camp brought him into the seniors for a friendly?

All of the players that you talk about have been in the England setup for years beforehand. They have won major honours in the setup. The character, quality and potential of the players is known by the staff. They tend to favour these players and some get early call ups.

 

[Damien]

I have just seen that Bellingham has been selected for England and while I congratulate the young man I am left shaking my head regarding what a player has to do to earn an England Cap.
It seems to me that Southgate picks so many players it cheapens the right to represent England when back in the day it was one of the pinnacles of a players career.
I know there is such an emphasis on club football these days and that is evident when players withdraw from internationals when chipping a fingernail.

In this case, he's in as a replacement and it is easier to bring a replacement in from the U21s (both train at St. George's Park) than uproot someone who wasn't called up at all, especially when he's unlikely to play in the international break and with the lockdown restrictions.

 

[Red Pavan]

Does anyone else think of the actress Lynda Bellingham when they see his name? Or just me.

firstly these games should have been called off. Is that 4 internationals, by mid November and we’ve only had 6 or 7 league games?

I like the idea of the nations league, and it’s better than the mindless friendliest we have had for decades. But in a season like this, it should have been the first thing to go. Needless travel and needless games that mean nothing. It’s ridiculous.

with that in mind, I’d expect a lot more players than usual to be called up and playing, and if that gives established players a week off, and we give a youngster who is not playing every week a game, that works out well.

It's absolutely bonkers exposing players to a wider pool from around the globe. It makes no sense at all and clubs with the power they have on the international game, should have attempted to force FIFA/UEFA's hand in boycotting these fixtures.

 

[Bondi77]

There are more games being played now and a lot of them are pointless in my opinion and I would suppose that to have played for England does not give a player the stature of what it once did amongst his fellow professionals and the public.
I think it would be a lot better for the British players to have a return to the Home Nations tournament as there would be more interest and passion in those games.

 

[LVGSdive]

Given how few English players are playing in the top league's this is unavoidable now. Plus Bellingham is an elite talent even at 17 he was going to be called up it was just a case of how soon.

 

[dbs235]

In this case, he's in as a replacement and it is easier to bring a replacement in from the U21s (both train at St. George's Park) than uproot someone who wasn't called up at all, especially when he's unlikely to play in the international break and with the lockdown restrictions.

This is exactly the reason.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They often promote from the u21 regardless in that situation. Demari Gray, Solanke and DCL were called that way a few years ago.

 

[Snow]

It’s a big reason why they haven’t progressed to a standard that you seem to imply is expected if they get called up early.

Although personally I never rated Cook he’d played actually played over 100 senior games and was into his second season as a Premier League player when he was called up. Add to that over 50 youth caps for England whilst captaining the U17s to a European Championship win plus the U20s to World Cup victory, is it really much of a surprise that the England camp brought him into the seniors for a friendly?

All of the players that you talk about have been in the England setup for years beforehand. They have won major honours in the setup. The character, quality and potential of the players is known by the staff. They tend to favour these players and some get early call ups.

That's not what I implied. They got called up despite having done little to earn it. It's a different approach than you normally see for friendlies from other countries. Look at Holland-Spain. Gerard (28) playing his 7th match, Canales (29) his 6th and he was a huge talent 10 years ago. 15 players in that Spain squad with less than 10 games, only 2 of them younger than 22 and those are both City players.

Cook got called up a few months into his Bournemouth stint. He had played for Leeds but that's Southgate picking 18-19 year olds that have played in the Championship. Mason Mount is another one.

I don't rate Soutgate, I think his tactics are bad, I think his selections are weird and I think England play bad football because of his tactics, trust in inexperience and frequent changes in areas where he could be making better selections. I also think he relies on the wrong players. He picked Jones, Welbeck, Delph and Rose for the last WC who had about 50 games between them the season leading into it with TAA being the only new boy. Now he's gone too much the other way. Players like AWB, Redmond, Smalling, Ings don't get a sniff despite experience and good form. Ollie Watkins didn't play for a single England youth team. Was top scorer last season in the Championship and starts with 8 in 10 for Villa who are in great form. It's about the pattern of selection for him. Some of these young players don't even have to be in good form to get the call-up or they get called up for the wrong reasons like Saka as a left back despite being a 19 year old winger that has played a few games there (none this season).

 

[Classical Mechanic]

That's not what I implied. They got called up despite having done little to earn it. It's a different approach than you normally see for friendlies from other countries. Look at Holland-Spain. Gerard (28) playing his 7th match, Canales (29) his 6th and he was a huge talent 10 years ago. 15 players in that Spain squad with less than 10 games, only 2 of them younger than 22 and those are both City players.

Cook got called up a few months into his Bournemouth stint. He had played for Leeds but that's Southgate picking 18-19 year olds that have played in the Championship. Mason Mount is another one.

I don't rate Soutgate, I think his tactics are bad, I think his selections are weird and I think England play bad football because of his tactics, trust in inexperience and frequent changes in areas where he could be making better selections. I also think he relies on the wrong players. He picked Jones, Welbeck, Delph and Rose for the last WC who had about 50 games between them the season leading into it with TAA being the only new boy. Now he's gone too much the other way. Players like AWB, Redmond, Smalling, Ings don't get a sniff despite experience and good form. Ollie Watkins didn't play for a single England youth team. Was top scorer last season in the Championship and starts with 8 in 10 for Villa who are in great form. It's about the pattern of selection for him. Some of these young players don't even have to be in good form to get the call-up or they get called up for the wrong reasons like Saka as a left back despite being a 19 year old winger that has played a few games there (none this season).

I guess it depends on what you see as 'earning it'. England favour some players they know that come through their own system, players that have won tournaments with them at youth level. They know their quality and characters and want to have a look how they fit in to the senior squad. I don't see it as especially controversial. It's also dependent on which poisitions you have more or less talent in, although sometimes curious decisions will occur.

Redmond did 'get a sniff'. He's been in 30 man training sqauds but didn't make the final cut. If Covid was about when he was in his best form he would have played for England in a 'b-team' friendly. England have a crazy number of high level right backs so AWB misses out. I don't think this is controversial either. Ings does get a sniff, he's been in all the recent England squads and has played and scored. The number 9 position is becoming like the right back postion for England with 7 English 9s in the top 10 PL scorers so far this season. Watkins was too old to play for the England u21s last season but yes there are some talented players that don't play for international teams at youth level before going on to at senior level. I' sure Watkins will be one of them.

It's fine if you don't rate Southgate's new tactics, many don't and have the same reservations as you. I don't think 'he's gone the other way' in his approach to capping players. It's more to do with a talented generation coming through coupled with the previous generation being skinny on talent in many areas and add to that the Covid situation allowing for bigger squads. Personally I see international football as a results business, more so than at any other level, i.e. substance over style. For me Southgate will be judged on the bottom line only.

 

[Snow]

I guess it depends on what you see as 'earning it'. England favour some players they know that come through their own system, players that have won tournaments with them at youth level. They know their quality and characters and want to have a look how they fit in to the senior squad. I don't see it as especially controversial. It's also dependent on which poisitions you have more or less talent in, although sometimes curious decisions will occur.

Redmond did 'get a sniff'. He's been in 30 man training sqauds but didn't make the final cut. If Covid was about when he was in his best form he would have played for England in a 'b-team' friendly. England have a crazy number of high level right backs so AWB misses out. I don't think this is controversial either. Ings does get a sniff, he's been in all the recent England squads and has played and scored. The number 9 position is becoming like the right back postion for England with 7 English 9s in the top 10 PL scorers so far this season. Watkins was too old to play for the England u21s last season but yes there are some talented players that don't play for international teams at youth level before going on to at senior level. I' sure Watkins will be one of them.

It's fine if you don't rate Southgate's new tactics, many don't and have the same reservations as you. I don't think 'he's gone the other way' in his approach to capping players. It's more to do with a talented generation coming through coupled with the previous generation being skinny on talent in many areas and add to that the Covid situation allowing for bigger squads. Personally I see international football as a results business, more so than at any other level, i.e. substance over style. For me Southgate will be judged on the bottom line only.

His results aren't good either. Wins less than half of tournament matches. 3 wins in 10 Nation's League matches. 3 WC wins in 7. How many of those 17 matches did the team perform well? Lucky that the Euro draws favor host nations, got an easy group to pad his stats some more. Won't win the thing though so you'll have to make do with little substance and no style some more.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

His results aren't good either. Wins less than half of tournament matches. 3 wins in 10 Nation's League matches. 3 WC wins in 7. How many of those 17 matches did the team perform well? Lucky that the Euro draws favor host nations, got an easy group to pad his stats some more. Won't win the thing though so you'll have to make do with little substance and no style some more.

The bottom line is 4th in the World Cup and 3rd in the Nations League. Portugal won the 2016 Euros with only 3 wins in 7 games. It’s about getting the job done.