Analysis of our attack against Newcastle

mav_9me

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8 of the 20 were due to Fred being Fred, abt 3 were Ronaldo directly. Another 3 were due to players trying to find Ronaldo instead of a better option.

Wasn't sure abt creating a thread but thought this shows how much of a difference Eriksen instead of Fred would have made.
 

Himannv

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I feel all of this is just a lack of synergy and a sign that the attack hasn't quite clicked. ETH needs to change something with the personnel - maybe dropping one of Ronaldo (for Rashford) or Sancho (for Elanga) might work out but it's hard to say.
 

wangyu

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The main problem was Ronaldo and especially the teammates around him trying to find Ronaldo constantly. Are we that one dimensional that we are banking on a 38 year old that is not nimble, fast and alert enough anymore to score goals?

Sure Fred is a lovely scapegoat because he is not a good football player but his effort alone is enough to not make him the problem. That chance he missed was most likely offside anyway by Rashford, definitely a var moment...
 

Guapa

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With a half decent CF we win that game.Simple.
 

UpWithRivers

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This is to do with our inability to cross and our inability to go on the outside - left footed right winger and right footed left winger and our lb/rb not doing anything in attack and overlapping. Instead we try to pass it in which is a high risk approach. You have to have a brilliant ball threaded through the eye of a needle and make instant decisions. If you are just a fraction off then the defenders get it or you miss your target. Nothing wrong with attacking this way but we need other forms of attack i.e crosses or overlap, get to the byeline and cut back to the edge of the box, or more long balls etc. Anything that makes the defense deal with anything different than our threaded attacking style. When Plan A doesnt work our only plan B is subs and hope for a moment of genius or a mistake but approach is the same
 

mav_9me

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Patient notes? I picked up a load of abbreviations from writing a history and examination in hospital case notes. “Abdo exam NAF” All freehand, so abbreviations needed to avoid writer’s cramp. That probably doesn’t happen any more.
I thought so initially but then using computer for 15 yrs...so more likely from sms days.

BTW what's NAF? Normal as feck?
 

UpWithRivers

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The main problem was Ronaldo and especially the teammates around him trying to find Ronaldo constantly. Are we that one dimensional that we are banking on a 38 year old that is not nimble, fast and alert enough anymore to score goals?

Sure Fred is a lovely scapegoat because he is not a good football player but his effort alone is enough to not make him the problem. That chance he missed was most likely offside anyway by Rashford, definitely a var moment...
With a half decent CF we win that game.Simple.
Blaming Ronaldo baffles the sht out of me. If Ronaldo had even 1 or two good chances and missed then you could say he's to blame. Even if we had a good cross and you could say where was the striker that was an awesome cross and he's nowhere then yeah he's to blame. But our creators didnt create anything for him. 0 none nada. You could have put Haaland in there and he wouldn't have done anything because you simply cannot score without service. We need a striker for sure but we have had a few and they all stand there doing nothing because no one can get the ball to them. The problem isnt that they are trying to find Ronaldo all the time its that they are failing to find him at all
 

bosnian_red

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These 2 were really annoying and epitomizes everything about attackers not picking out the right options and forcing it to Ronaldo
 

bosnian_red

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Blaming Ronaldo baffles the sht out of me. If Ronaldo had even 1 or two good chances and missed then you could say he's to blame. Even if we had a good cross and you could say where was the striker that was an awesome cross and he's nowhere then yeah he's to blame. But our creators didnt create anything for him. 0 none nada. You could have put Haaland in there and he wouldn't have done anything because you simply cannot score without service. We need a striker for sure but we have had a few and they all stand there doing nothing because no one can get the ball to them
Bullshit. A striker creates his own chances or has the movement to turn good positions into good chances. A strikers quality would essentially be pointless if all the responsibility was on the teammates to create for him. We had 70% possession and were camped around their box. You put Haaland in for Ronaldo and he probably scores a hat trick and we get so many more chances. Instead, Ronaldo barely does anything. Hell, Rashford comes in for Ronaldo and has almost as many touches in 20 minutes as Ronaldo had in 70, and we create 2 clear cut chances in those 20 minutes.

The reason we are struggling in front of goal is mainly due to Ronaldo not being a premier league level attacker anymore. He just isn't.
 

Hammondo

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8 of the 20 were due to Fred being Fred, abt 3 were Ronaldo directly. Another 3 were due to players trying to find Ronaldo instead of a better option.

Wasn't sure abt creating a thread but thought this shows how much of a difference Eriksen instead of Fred would have made.
That thread just shows how poor we played, we barely created half chances.
 

Big Andy

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Thing is, you've got to know when to hold and give but do it at the right time, and you can be slow or fast but you must get to the line. If you don't, the opposition always hit you and hurt you, defend and attack, but really there's only one way to beat them, get round the back.
 

Hammondo

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These 2 were really annoying and epitomizes everything about attackers not picking out the right options and forcing it to Ronaldo
True but it also shows how poor we are when we try to pull off anything difficult.
 

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The goods news is, again, that these are simple enough issues to fix because they're not tactical, it comes down to the personnel and the fact that we still have limited players in our starting XI

Fred is bad, we know that. You're not going to win trophies with him in central midfield because his protection and use of the ball is so terribly limited. For all the criticism a player like Bruno gets, the reason you have him in your team is because he can play those match-winning passes that make the difference between 1pt and 3pts. Eriksen can too....but Fred cannot.

We also know we need a CF. First of all, our attackers seem to fear and/or idolise Ronaldo. Now, that's not Ronaldo's fault per se', but it's clear they look for him every time when better/easier passes are on. Secondly, we know he doesn't have the physical attributes to stretch or worry a back four now, so everything he does has to be in-front of the defenders which limits our attacking options by condensing the space.

It's no coincidence that we immediately forced Newcastle back when Rashford came on. Ronaldo might have been 10x the player Rashford is at his peak but it means nothing if his legs have gone.
 

UpWithRivers

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Bullshit. A striker creates his own chances or has the movement to turn good positions into good chances. A strikers quality would essentially be pointless if all the responsibility was on the teammates to create for him. We had 70% possession and were camped around their box. You put Haaland in for Ronaldo and he probably scores a hat trick and we get so many more chances. Instead, Ronaldo barely does anything. Hell, Rashford comes in for Ronaldo and has almost as many touches in 20 minutes as Ronaldo had in 70, and we create 2 clear cut chances in those 20 minutes.

The reason we are struggling in front of goal is mainly due to Ronaldo not being a premier league level attacker anymore. He just isn't.
We had 70 percent possession and how many clear cut chances and how many for Ronaldo? Rashford brought another dimension to our attack because he was doing something different to our other wide players in Sancho and Anthony i.e pace and running in behind. It wasnt his strengths as a striker that changed it a bit, it was his strengths as a wide player. That opportunity to Fred. The wide player should have made the run and the striker should have been in Freds position or at least a more attacking minded player. The header was the first decent cross and that was by Casemiro. The wingers and Bruno should have been doing that all game and a striker should have been on the end of it not a winger in Rashford. If Rasford came on for Sancho and those two chances fell for Ronaldo whether you think he's sht or not I would bet on him scoring over Fred or a header by Rashford. But he never got those opportunities. If you think strikers dont need service and can do it all themselves then I dont know what to tell you.
 

bosnian_red

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We had 70 percent possession and how many clear cut chances and how many for Ronaldo? Rashford brought another dimension to our attack because he was doing something different to our other wide players in Sancho and Anthony i.e pace and running in behind. It wasnt his strengths as a striker that changed it a bit, it was his strengths as a wide player. That opportunity to Fred. The wide player should have made the run and the striker should have been in Freds position or at least a more attacking minded player. The header was the first decent cross and that was by Casemiro. The wingers and Bruno should have been doing that all game and a striker should have been on the end of it not a winger in Rashford. If Rasford came on for Sancho and those two chances fell for Ronaldo whether you think he's sht or not I would bet on him scoring over Fred or a header by Rashford. But he never got those opportunities. If you think strikers dont need service and can do it all themselves then I dont know what to tell you.
Strikers need service but it's much more on them to provide the openings for the service. This was not a game where we struggled to get into the attacking third so you can excuse the striker. The whole point of this thread is to click on the tweet, and look at the twitter thread that breaks down every single attack we had basically throughout the game and how we constantly got into good positions, but just ruined it with the final touch, final movement, final pass, whatever. If it was the Ronaldo of 2 years ago, for example, that pass Bruno played into him would've resulted in a great chance and probably a goal. But as it is, because he is slow and weak at this point, the defender was able to close him down, nudge him over sufficiently and the chance turns to nothing (still possibly a pen mind you, but younger Ronaldo wouldn't have given them the chance).

Rashford, in 20 minutes, had almost as many touches as Ronaldo did in 70 minutes. He's not even a striker, but he came on as one and just offered pace in behind which Ronaldo is incapable of doing. Put another striker in for Ronaldo who can actually hold up well, link up well, make runs in behind etc and we would just create far more opportunities as a team.

It's no coincidence that Ronaldo individually has pretty much half the xG/90 this season compared to last season. Our team has a higher xG/90 than we did last season, but Ronaldo's has been halved. He's declined massively, and while the rest of our team is getting in chances and improving constantly, he is not finding himself in chances. And that's when the writing is on the wall for you. You don't worry about attackers who get in chances, accumulate high xG, but just are on a bad run. You worry when the attacking isn't finding himself in chances. You can excuse it when the team is being dominated so they don't even get a chance to show what they can do. But you sure as hell worry when you are camped around the opposition box all day and the striker does feck all. That's a sign that the striker is the problem. 70% possession, most of the game around Newcastle's box, and all he could muster was 1 shot that a slightly quicker and stronger player would've turned into a great chance (and Haaland sure as feck would've scored/gotten a good shot off), but current Ronaldo was closed down and pushed over by the time he got his shot off.
 

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We had 70 percent possession and how many clear cut chances and how many for Ronaldo? Rashford brought another dimension to our attack because he was doing something different to our other wide players in Sancho and Anthony i.e pace and running in behind. It wasnt his strengths as a striker that changed it a bit, it was his strengths as a wide player. That opportunity to Fred. The wide player should have made the run and the striker should have been in Freds position or at least a more attacking minded player. The header was the first decent cross and that was by Casemiro. The wingers and Bruno should have been doing that all game and a striker should have been on the end of it not a winger in Rashford. If Rasford came on for Sancho and those two chances fell for Ronaldo whether you think he's sht or not I would bet on him scoring over Fred or a header by Rashford. But he never got those opportunities. If you think strikers dont need service and can do it all themselves then I dont know what to tell you.
A striker's role is fundamentally to be on the end of chances though so I always find the 'no service' argument to be fairly weak and easy to dismiss in most cases.

It changed when Rashford came on because he was running in-behind and the Newcastle CBs feared his pace, so dropped 5-yards. That creates space and options over the top.

Ronaldo does everything in-front of CBs because his legs have gone. As I pointed out after the midweek game, even his movement in the box now looks laboured and he's often behind CBs or beaten to crosses he would have gobbled up if anywhere near his prime
 

UpWithRivers

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Strikers need service but it's much more on them to provide the openings for the service. This was not a game where we struggled to get into the attacking third so you can excuse the striker. The whole point of this thread is to click on the tweet, and look at the twitter thread that breaks down every single attack we had basically throughout the game and how we constantly got into good positions, but just ruined it with the final touch, final movement, final pass, whatever. If it was the Ronaldo of 2 years ago, for example, that pass Bruno played into him would've resulted in a great chance and probably a goal. But as it is, because he is slow and weak at this point, the defender was able to close him down, nudge him over sufficiently and the chance turns to nothing (still possibly a pen mind you, but younger Ronaldo wouldn't have given them the chance).

Rashford, in 20 minutes, had almost as many touches as Ronaldo did in 70 minutes. He's not even a striker, but he came on as one and just offered pace in behind which Ronaldo is incapable of doing. Put another striker in for Ronaldo who can actually hold up well, link up well, make runs in behind etc and we would just create far more opportunities as a team.

It's no coincidence that Ronaldo individually has pretty much half the xG/90 this season compared to last season. Our team has a higher xG/90 than we did last season, but Ronaldo's has been halved. He's declined massively, and while the rest of our team is getting in chances and improving constantly, he is not finding himself in chances. And that's when the writing is on the wall for you. You don't worry about attackers who get in chances, accumulate high xG, but just are on a bad run. You worry when the attacking isn't finding himself in chances. You can excuse it when the team is being dominated so they don't even get a chance to show what they can do. But you sure as hell worry when you are camped around the opposition box all day and the striker does feck all. That's a sign that the striker is the problem. 70% possession, most of the game around Newcastle's box, and all he could muster was 1 shot that a slightly quicker and stronger player would've turned into a great chance (and Haaland sure as feck would've scored/gotten a good shot off), but current Ronaldo was closed down and pushed over by the time he got his shot off.
Well I agree with what you say. Ronaldo hasnt been great and we need to get another striker and it would help a lot. But I disagree where the biggest problem is. I still say our main problem is before we get to the striker. We are 6th in the league for big chances created, nearly bottom for crosses and mid table for number of passes. We have one dimension to our attack. We are really good at counter attacking with pace. We even have gotten better like at Newcastle with keeping possession. But we lack players that can beat a man, players driving from midfield, players that can get on the outside, players that cross, overlapping rb/lb etc. Its too one dimensional. We do the same thing over and over. Sometimes it works. Sometimes its even brilliant. But when it doesn't we are fkd. Ronaldo is sht but at least put in a few decent crosses and give him half a chance. When he has 0 good chances except maybe Brnos half chance then its hard to blame him first. We have seen it for years and years. Our strikers stand up front and get little service
 

Hammondo

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The goods news is, again, that these are simple enough issues to fix because they're not tactical, it comes down to the personnel and the fact that we still have limited players in our starting XI

Fred is bad, we know that. You're not going to win trophies with him in central midfield because his protection and use of the ball is so terribly limited. For all the criticism a player like Bruno gets, the reason you have him in your team is because he can play those match-winning passes that make the difference between 1pt and 3pts. Eriksen can too....but Fred cannot.

We also know we need a CF. First of all, our attackers seem to fear and/or idolise Ronaldo. Now, that's not Ronaldo's fault per se', but it's clear they look for him every time when better/easier passes are on. Secondly, we know he doesn't have the physical attributes to stretch or worry a back four now, so everything he does has to be in-front of the defenders which limits our attacking options by condensing the space.

It's no coincidence that we immediately forced Newcastle back when Rashford came on. Ronaldo might have been 10x the player Rashford is at his peak but it means nothing if his legs have gone.
But we need a player who can do what Bruno does but with consistently, Bruno is amazingly inconsistent with his passing. We also need a striker who has much better overall ability than Rashford.
 

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But we need a player who can do what Bruno does but with consistently, Bruno is amazingly inconsistent with his passing. We also need a striker who has much better overall ability than Rashford.
Well I agree but this is why I am not really judging ETH on results but rather on performances.

We can defend well and be organised without having a team of world-class players. Likewise, we can control territory and utilise shape and patterns without having a team of world-class players.

However, I do feel that in order to break down low-blocks, accumulate the sheer volume of points required to challenge for the title and/or score the goals required in tight games to go deep in cup competitions that we do need more quality in attack - and that just means a couple of new players, it's not really something ETH can do a huge amount about

That's why games like Newcastle are positive for me. If we had a Haaland, a Lewandowski or a Harry Kane I feel we nick a goal and win that game
 

amolbhatia50k

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I feel if could get Sancho Martial and Antony to start 5 consecutive games together you'd start to see some cohesion in our attack. We need partnerships in this team that work in unison rather than like separate pieces doing their own thing.
 

Isotope

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These 2 were really annoying and epitomizes everything about attackers not picking out the right options and forcing it to Ronaldo

If i'm not mistaken seeing that "analysis", that Bruno's pass is actually the correct one. As a striker, it was Ronaldo that fecked it up.

 

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Yep, this is why I hate people blaming that game on ETH. Everything tactically put our players in the best positions to execute, they simply didn’t.
When you're putting Fred on the edge of the area and expecting him to make the right choice or have a good shot, the problem is you have the wrong type of player in that position
 

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When you're putting Fred on the edge of the area and expecting him to make the right choice or have a good shot, the problem is you have the wrong type of player in that position
Yeah but he's even worse/more of a liability deeper and I think ETHs idea was that playing Fred higher could help counter the fact Ronaldo can't press.

I would have started Elanga over Ronaldo personally, although I think ETH is smart enough to know that's a decision he'd struggle to come back from and he needs to be 100% certain Ronaldo is done (and the squad/fans accept that) before he makes those types of decisions
 

romufc

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But we need a player who can do what Bruno does but with consistently, Bruno is amazingly inconsistent with his passing. We also need a striker who has much better overall ability than Rashford.
I see your point, Bruno has been poor for a while.

I know this might come as an excuse or hypotheticals but Bruno and Martial's best season was when it was them 2 playing.

Even last season, Bruno started with a hattrick and then when Ronaldo came in, his levels dropped too.

I think he needs a forward that suits a style, Bruno x Martial is a very good partnership, we need to get him fit until we can upgrade our Strike force.
 

bosnian_red

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If i'm not mistaken seeing that "analysis", that Bruno's pass is actually the correct one. As a striker, it was Ronaldo that fecked it up.

Ronaldo is the wide pass, Sancho is through the middle who shouldve received it. Though yeah Ronaldo still fecked it up.
 

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If i'm not mistaken seeing that "analysis", that Bruno's pass is actually the correct one. As a striker, it was Ronaldo that fecked it up.

All these analyses, using split second images to show “right” and “wrong” options really boil my piss. If you play football you’ll know how hard it is to even spot one good pass, never mind instantly and correctly selecting and executing the best possible pass. Yes, these guys are so good you can expect them to get that sort of analysis right more often than not but obviously won’t do it every time. Chances are they don’t even see some of the passing options that Twitter experts thing they’re ignoring. It’s not physically possible to look in two directions at once.
 
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Ekeke

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Fred was only playing because Eriksen and McT were both out though. At a certain point you sort of have to work with what you got.
Correct. And if you arent choosing Van De Beek and dont have a youngster to come in and get an oppertunity in that attacking role when you dont have your starter Eriksen available then you need to be selling Van De Beek and buying someone you do trust to do a better job than Fred did in those positions against Newcastle.
 

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Yeah but he's even worse/more of a liability deeper and I think ETHs idea was that playing Fred higher could help counter the fact Ronaldo can't press.

I would have started Elanga over Ronaldo personally, although I think ETH is smart enough to know that's a decision he'd struggle to come back from and he needs to be 100% certain Ronaldo is done (and the squad/fans accept that) before he makes those types of decisions
Fernandes is already doing that job. He had the 3rd most presses in the team after Fred and Casemiro. So the Ronaldo pressing shouldnt be much of an issue and certainly not one where we have to dedicate Fred into attack in order to stop Newcastle building from the back

The bigger issue is obviously that when you get into attacking areas you need a player who can contribute and create chances, else having Ronaldo there in the first place isnt going to do anything. If you dont give him the ball in advanced areas with good chances to shoot its going to be hard for him to pay off being picked. And thats what we lacked from Fred in particular. Other players arent doing great with it either, Bruno is very hit and miss right now and Eriksen hasn't done a lot of it other than his superman performance against Arsenal. But at least we know with those players they are comfortable and will get it right, just not every game. While with someone like Fred its about 1 game out 10 that he'll provide a good piece of play in attack and be beneficial there over being detrimental