Reason I would like a DOF is so we have a plan, that we buy players and hire managers fitting of a certain direction we want to take. It wouldn't solve any of our problems short term but maybe shorten the time it takes to get competitive again. But you're right if Woodward choses no to take the advice of a DOF, it would be a pointless appointment.
Are a lot of people missing the point of a Director of Football?
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People seem to want a DOF to decide on transfers. Ole's signed really fecking well so far. His signings have been our best players. He clearly has a good eye for players and knows what he wants. They just need to give him money and let him get on with fixing the squad.
I agree his signings have been great so far, problem is I have zero faith in Woodward. Say he sacks Ole, what then? What direction does the rebuild take? We know he's capable of hiring any type of manager with any type of prefered style.
DoF won't be making signings without any communication from manager. We might end up with DoF who is an ass and make signings that manager don't want or we might end up with DoF who can work closely with manager.
We need DoF not just for signing the obvious players but also to keep eye on emerging players, signing for the future and also to establish good relationship with agents to sign players. Also it will be easy to lay the groundwork to sign players whose contract is about to expire.
You're saying this now, like people were saying this for Mourinho up until a season ago, and then Van Gaal a few seasons ago.
As soon as Ole gets sacked and a new manager comes in, his signings are going to be prime target for abuse and being shat on for being not good enough.
So don't sack him. Let him sign more players and fix the squad.
Just watch the short mini series about Borussia Dortmund on Amazon Prime to see what and how a proper structure looks like and operates. Those are competent people. 100% cannot be said about United's structure when compared side by side.
The point of a DoF is to ensure that you maintain a clear vision and strategy when the inevitable happens and managers/players come and go
The reason we’re in such a mess is because we keep changing managers without a plan. Players are signed on a whim depending on who the manager fancies at the time and we end up with this ridiculous mish mash of a squad
The reason we’re in such a mess is because we keep changing managers without a plan. Players are signed on a whim depending on who the manager fancies at the time and we end up with this ridiculous mish mash of a squad
Could you give me an example of a manager you're talking about please?
Whether it was the right or wrong decision, I'm just showing you times when Ed has interfered with footballing decisions.
The implications of that can be debated.
Woodward is making the decisions and is responsible for his mistakes. José with his lengthy and star-studded CV said his job title should be changed from manager to coach because he has no control over the transfers. So if he couldn't exercise control, there is no way a relative neophyte like Ole could.
The major problem United has today is that the central midfield is missing essential parts. Last year the wheels started to fall off when Herrera got injured and it was painfully apparent there was no cover for him. This year there is still no cover and also there is no Herrera. Because they have no proven third central midfielder/#10 we end up with Pogba playing in a position where he is not effective. Ditto for Lingard who leaves a void at the right attacker. It is a shambles caused by Woodward's obvious inability to see that central midfield is the focal point of the football team.
DOF is a way to get rid of Woodward who has engineered a six year downward spiral.
BTW I don't understand the claim about enormous amounts of money United spends. For this transfer window our net expenditure was 25 million which includes a conservative 40 million loss for Herrera. Net expenditures for our major competition? Arsenal 92 million. Tottenham 61 million. Chelsea faced a ban but take a look at Everton who spent 85 billion. There is no rebuilding going on and getting the United manager's job is a poisoned chalice.
The major problem United has today is that the central midfield is missing essential parts. Last year the wheels started to fall off when Herrera got injured and it was painfully apparent there was no cover for him. This year there is still no cover and also there is no Herrera. Because they have no proven third central midfielder/#10 we end up with Pogba playing in a position where he is not effective. Ditto for Lingard who leaves a void at the right attacker. It is a shambles caused by Woodward's obvious inability to see that central midfield is the focal point of the football team.
DOF is a way to get rid of Woodward who has engineered a six year downward spiral.
BTW I don't understand the claim about enormous amounts of money United spends. For this transfer window our net expenditure was 25 million which includes a conservative 40 million loss for Herrera. Net expenditures for our major competition? Arsenal 92 million. Tottenham 61 million. Chelsea faced a ban but take a look at Everton who spent 85 billion. There is no rebuilding going on and getting the United manager's job is a poisoned chalice.
They're not just exclusively football decisions though. Writing off a 50m investment in Martial after two seasons, for an older player should have shareholders seething (the people who Woodward answers to) because that's just pure neglect.
If a CEO isn't allowed to step in there, what's to stop managers embezzling money out of the club by buying overpriced players from their favoured agents/clubs?
No, he got an extension because he had been flirting with PSG. There was no other reason not to wait until the end of the season for extending his contract.
I personally think that most fans want a DOF mainly to remove Woodward from that function.
Nobody was crying for a DOF when good decisions were taken.
Nobody was crying for a DOF when good decisions were taken.
This.
Not just the Mourinho regime, every manager has come in wielding a brand new playing style, transfer philosophy, back room staff etc. Each new manager working towards long-term implementation, thus starting from year -1. We’ve been in transition for 6 years but there were 4 transitions. Furthermore each manager’s been instrumental in scouting, and coaching, and long term strategy, where they may have progressed in 1 or 2 another was lacking... Most often, and most detrimentally match day execution.
I’m a firm advocate of hiring a DOF to take responsibility of footballing strategy, provide continuity/stability, and to let the coach focus on delivering performance on field.
OP, I suggest you read the following article if you're not too sure why we need a DoF...
https://trainingground.guru/articles/stuart-webber-climb-of-the-canaries
https://trainingground.guru/articles/stuart-webber-climb-of-the-canaries
The fundamental reason as for why we should appoint a DoF or Technical director or something similar is not to make us spend more money in the market. It is not to make the team perform better on the pitch.
The fundamental reason is that if the DoF/Tech Dir hopefully will understand how modern football is played(Different variations of technical, possessionbased and high pressure) and make the changes (long term strategy on all football levels at the club) so that our squad and manager/coaching staff are suited to this. And the changes to achieve this will take place over time.
CEO (Woodward) on behest of the board (Glazers) creates the overall strategy(short and long term) for the club based on the long term goals (financial and football related) for the corporation that is Manchester United. This strategy consists of short term goals (seasonal) and a short term strategy and actions to achieve these goals. The football related goals (long and short term) should then be handed to the DoF/TD and together with the financial limitations that he/she can be expected to operate within over the next few seasons. The DoF/TD then creates a strategy for the football department on how to best achieve or hopefully exceed these goals.
The DoFs strategy should start with what type of football will most likely achieve the short and long term goals based on squad and financial limiations. Then followed by the suitability of the manager and coaching staff to make the team play this type of football. Then the DoF with input from the manager will evaluate the suitability of the players in the squad to play this type of football. If neither the manager or the squad is suited or good enough, then changes are made over time.
All this hinges on appointing the correct DoF/TD... Or we can continue on this downward spiral until we are so bad that even the increased popularity of football will not offset the economical effects of all the bad decisions made. And the Glazers selling the club.
The fundamental reason is that if the DoF/Tech Dir hopefully will understand how modern football is played(Different variations of technical, possessionbased and high pressure) and make the changes (long term strategy on all football levels at the club) so that our squad and manager/coaching staff are suited to this. And the changes to achieve this will take place over time.
CEO (Woodward) on behest of the board (Glazers) creates the overall strategy(short and long term) for the club based on the long term goals (financial and football related) for the corporation that is Manchester United. This strategy consists of short term goals (seasonal) and a short term strategy and actions to achieve these goals. The football related goals (long and short term) should then be handed to the DoF/TD and together with the financial limitations that he/she can be expected to operate within over the next few seasons. The DoF/TD then creates a strategy for the football department on how to best achieve or hopefully exceed these goals.
The DoFs strategy should start with what type of football will most likely achieve the short and long term goals based on squad and financial limiations. Then followed by the suitability of the manager and coaching staff to make the team play this type of football. Then the DoF with input from the manager will evaluate the suitability of the players in the squad to play this type of football. If neither the manager or the squad is suited or good enough, then changes are made over time.
All this hinges on appointing the correct DoF/TD... Or we can continue on this downward spiral until we are so bad that even the increased popularity of football will not offset the economical effects of all the bad decisions made. And the Glazers selling the club.
We've been incredibly unlucky with our transfer dealings in the last few years. I can't think of many players we bought who the majority on here were not delighted with on signing. The problem has been that these players have not shown the talent, temperament, consistency they showed at their previous clubs. The problems we've had have been partly down to players & partly down to managers. A DOF won't really change much.
Ed wants to buy players that will sell shirts. He wants to buy young players with a good resale value. He wants to buy old players on free transfers.
A DoF will buy a coherent team and hire the best manager. He will convince top players and managers this is a good place to work.
A DoF will buy a coherent team and hire the best manager. He will convince top players and managers this is a good place to work.
This is exactly why we need a DOF, first you can't trust a man whose job is results oriented to drive the overall strategy of your football side. Ole has done well but are chances are high that he won't be here when the verdict on a player like Dan James comes out, what if the next manager comes in and says he thinks Maguire is too slow and benches him? That's suddenly £80m down the drain.
Then we have to look at the processes we use to appoint managers, what thought processes were there in moving from Van Gaal to Mourinho and to Solskgear? I think we need someone at the top with a bit of appreciation of the game and its different cultures contributing to the decision on who hire as a Head Coach.
I think you're being a bit naive by saying we've been unlucky and a DoF won't resolve the issues we have.
I urge you read what I posted on what a DoF does. There is an in depth interview with Stuart Webber on there, to give you more understanding of a DoF's role.
I am watching a video posted in another thread and i am impressed by Stuart Webber. The clarity of thought, the honesty and the belief in young talent makes me think he is one to look out for. Whether or not he will be able to transmit that in a high pressure environment that is United but I like what I have heard from him. The key though is will he be given the room to implement a strategy. If the Glazers want to build a successful team on the cheap then a DOF is the way to go.
My sentiments are exactly the same as this. Like you say, United is a high pressure job and it would need someone, imo, with some experience at a higher level. Someone like a Rangnick. Maybe Webber would be someone who would come in after, as Webber seems to have a lot of close links and knowledge about the German way of working, so he could fit in well with a coach such as Nagglesman or Rose.
I think he is grounded and with our expectations at rock bottom this is the time to make far reaching changes. The thought processes he describes in that video are exactly what we need at Executive level when making decisions particularly on recruitment of managers and players.
Kanye said no one man should have all that power
Was the video you were watching from the TGG article that I posted earlier?
We need a captioned image of Woody that reads "Screams from the haters, got a nice ring to it"
I agree, not exclusively a footballing decision, but it was, at least partly, a footballing decision. That's ignoring the Maguire deal and the Rojo transfer as well.
Not to mention, Ed seems to be (solely?) in charge of hiring managers too, which he doesn't seem to have got right once.
Usually, if any company is underperforming, it starts and ends with management. There have been plenty of times Ed has shown himself to be incompetent at best, and an embarrassment at worst
Well, I do agree that we need excellence. It can be in the coaching level and it can be in the management level (football wise, the people who choose the manager, etc). We haven't got excellence in any of the two departments. A football director is not a must. A top class coach/manager, the sort who can transform a club, can also do the job. Problem is, I don't think there are any available.
If there’s no top class coach/manager available you are highly unlikely to have a top class team. I don’t know what sort of magic wand people think Directors of Football wield, but if the manager is poor, a DoF is unlikely to secure great fortunes in spite of this.
I think it's easier to find a great coach and a great football administrator, than to find a great old school manager that can do all roles great.
It's rare in a lot of sports to see all that control in the hands of one person. Basketball for example requires great coordination between the front office who conduct trades and pick talent, head coaches who maximize the available talent on game day, and assistant coaches who specialize in different aspects.
Any DOF will likely be better than Woodward and would provide some continuity.
The point isn't that we'll never sign bad players again but the huge investment will be handled by someone who knows what they're doing, making it more effective.
That again works on some sort of assumption that Woodward is the one compiling our list of targets.
I think a director of football will give you consistensy in decision making, in choosing coaches of certain style and in building a squad that will give you a better chance of a more settled team and style. Nothing in football is guarenteed, but continuity is a good foundation to build on. Part of our success with Fergie was that his logevity gave us this continuity. Since 2013, we've had none at all. We've been all over the place with changing squads, different types of coaches, etc. And I think that if you create the right system in a club, a good but not brilliant coach can also do well.
To an extent. Continuity is often overrated in this particular conversation. Only success demands continuity. We had great continuity under Ferguson because he was successful. If he wasn’t he’d have been out. If a manager comes in and is sacked for being rubbish, I don’t see why this all-knowing director needs to think he must go out and find someone just like him. He’s out for a reason. Ultimately, you need to win. We haven’t done so, but we have hired managers that had track records of doing so. That’s good enough for me, even in hindsight. Everyone is a genius in retrospect, but I have no problem with a club who wants to win trophies, particularly in England, hiring Jose Mourinho when we did. That’s the aim of the game.
If we sack Ole tomorrow for being a failure, must this director say he needs to look for the next Ole? Should he turn down the next Guardiola because he’s different to Ole?
If you hire a DOF dare to challenge the Manager, then you caused conflict inside Board room, possibly spilled to dressing room, with Manager secretly leaking info to the press about not being supported..... If you hire a DOF dare not challenging the Manager, then you would continous having the Mata Fellaini Sanchez Lukaku Darmian Blind situation every season. I say we should hire a right head of scouts first, then at least we won't see a repeat of the Fred situation. Let the manager manage, recruits his favourite players and deploy his favourite tactics. We would at least have a arsenal of useful but not use-less players for the next manager....
The manager having his own mouthpiece to unsettle the club, should be a sackable offence
I don't see Solskjaer (and therefore us, right now) as having a particular style of football. So right now, United for me is a pretty clean slate for whatever we choose to do with it.
Well I’m sure he would beg to differ, and that isn’t really the point anyway. If a manager or style is not working, are we to be forbidden from changing course because some all powerful Director says we can’t?
I don’t think many people have thought this DoF thing through properly personally, and are instead clinging to a combination of a hope in the unknown and an anything but Woodward philosophy (which is probably the same thing tbh).
Personally, I don’t necessarily see Woodward as doing this terrible job that everyone else does. Like most football observers, I see our football managers as having done bad jobs because the football team is doing badly. We have hired proven managers and bought a combination of proven and promising players. Once they all walk into Carrington at the beginning of August, I’m not sure what input Woodward is supposed to have over whether or not we can beat Crystal Palace at home or not. Our failings are more or less on the manager’s area of the business to me. To want someone sacked for hiring Jose Mourinho to manage a football team isn’t rational or logical thinking in my opinion. He was the most successful football team manager in the world.