Never seen a statement blow up so quickly.
Are non English top European leagues closer to the Championship than they are to the Premier League?
- Thread starter Pintu
- Start date
Stupid statement to begin with tbf.
@Wumminator is somewhere tearing up
Just speaks to a lack of European football watched.
Championship is improving rapidly but it’s not there. Reckon you could safely say they could take on some league like Portuguese, Dutch etc. and you’d find it quite even as the better teams in those leagues would be too much for Championship sides but the mid table and lower league guys are a massive step down (Vizela, Gil, waalwijk).
Revisit this thread in ten years time and it will be interesting.
Revisit this thread in ten years time and it will be interesting.
Is it though? Is there some data or something concrete that suggest so?
You can find the money side of it but also I remember a few years back articles about how the amount of international players was skyrocketing with all the new wealth and there was some stat about how they had more players at the Euros than many big European leagues. If the money flow keeps heading as it is, they will keep improving.
That’s a good way of analysing it, didn’t know that.
It’s a bit like that, the top teams in the Championship would struggle against the top 4 teams in the Dutch or Portuguese League but bellow that they would blow out a lot of teams, even more in Portugal than in the Netherlands I suppose.
Anyway it’s always silly to make those comparisons and it’s obvious you cannot compare the Championship to La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga or Ligue 1, makes no sense at all to discuss that.
Scotland is 10th according to UEFA so it probably is at that level. I agree that people here are underrating non English leagues which is a common problem.
No professional footballer wants to go to the championship even if it is a pathway to the PL. They would rather be in la liga, Serie a, ligue 1, Bundesliga than go to second division England. Players and all people don't like the label of playing in the second best league.
They would rather be in the best league of a country. They also get more visibility from prem clubs if they play in top European leagues over championship.
They would rather be in the best league of a country. They also get more visibility from prem clubs if they play in top European leagues over championship.
I watched it briefly when Leonid Slutsky managed Hull, hoping for an entertaining trainwreck there. mostly extended highlight stuff, but also a handful of games. At that time (2017) most of what i saw, outside of the top few in-form teams looked roughly bottom half of the table RPL standard, which was 6th or 7th in the coefficients at the time. If it has stayed around the same level then the comparisons with current Portugal and Netherlands mid-table and other bottom of the top ten lagues sounds about right. A lot of the leagues in that 8-15ish bracket probably have a few teams that are likely to always be at least a good as whoever is fighting for the championship title, but being mostly smaller countries, the dropoff after that can be sharp.
Everytime the non English top flight leagues get played down and belittled atleast one PL side get smashed by a side in these so called inferior leagues shortly after.
Every single time.
Every single time.
Maybe PL is at Serie A level or lower.
Atalanta 6th in Series A, Norwich 6th in Championship.
Zero difference, Norwich coulda totally twatted Liverpool at Anfield.
The PL is clearly closer to Serie B than Serie A.
Zero difference, Norwich coulda totally twatted Liverpool at Anfield.
The PL is clearly closer to Serie B than Serie A.
The Premier League's flaw have become apparent this week. The emphasis on tactical structure and physicality has been overdone, while creativity and technical proficiency have diminished. When English clubs compete in Europe, they encounter teams that are more flexible and creative.
Everyone has praised our defense all season, and rightly so. However, when Sane ran with the ball, I realized it had been ages since a Premier League attacker had done that against Arsenal, not since the days of Hazard or Salah a few years ago. You rarely see that individual brilliance in the league today.
Psychologically, Premier League players are not being sufficiently challenged by modern football. Before, clubs like Stoke, Blackburn, and Wimbledon played robust, traditional British football, which not only tested but also built character among the top teams. Now, Luton and Burnley come to the Emirates trying to play out from the back, which often fails, leading to disillusionment and a drop in challenge. Conversely, West Ham's setup is mainly pragmatic, yet their players suit more expansive and attacking system.
It seems that many Premier League players are falling out of love with the game. Rigid modern tactics are less engaging and the lack of creative challenges are disheartening for players and fans alike.
Everyone has praised our defense all season, and rightly so. However, when Sane ran with the ball, I realized it had been ages since a Premier League attacker had done that against Arsenal, not since the days of Hazard or Salah a few years ago. You rarely see that individual brilliance in the league today.
Psychologically, Premier League players are not being sufficiently challenged by modern football. Before, clubs like Stoke, Blackburn, and Wimbledon played robust, traditional British football, which not only tested but also built character among the top teams. Now, Luton and Burnley come to the Emirates trying to play out from the back, which often fails, leading to disillusionment and a drop in challenge. Conversely, West Ham's setup is mainly pragmatic, yet their players suit more expansive and attacking system.
It seems that many Premier League players are falling out of love with the game. Rigid modern tactics are less engaging and the lack of creative challenges are disheartening for players and fans alike.
Then their setup is not pragmatic.
West Ham are a defensive team
Yes. But not every defensive setup is also pragmatic. Those words don't have the same meaning but a lot of football fans use them equally. Which is just wrong.
Being pragmatic is just using what you have without any ideological thinking. If you play defensive with players who are better suited foe a more attacking style, than you are ideological, not pragmatic.
He's mint, really like the look of him.
Yh fair point. I meant to say, West Ham with their players could be more expansive.
I know PL arrogance and overrating is a thing, but this thread really takes the cake. How deluded must one be to even consider such a debate?
"what actual evidence is there that the PL is so much better than the other top European leagues[?]"The obvious answer to the OP is 'no, that is a mind-bogglingly ridiculous assertion', but the more pertinent question is, 'what actual evidence is there that the PL is so much better than the other top European leagues that such a question can be asked re the Championship?'
We know that the PL is the richest league. It is also number one in the coefficient but it only attained that status about 5-6 years ago, taking over from Spain, whose clubs had spent a decade plus absolutely dominating the CL and the EL. As far as I am aware, if you look at results between nations in European competition, there is nothing to suggest PL supremacy (esp. v Spanish teams). So what is the criteria on which this idea is based? Other than blinkered jingoism, that is
UEFA coefficients take into account the previous five seasons.
- In the previous five seasons, England have produced three CL winners, Spain one, and Germany one. England have also produced three CL runners up, Italy one and France one.
- In the previous five seasons, England are the most represented nation in the EL final four, with six appearances, resulting in one winner and two runners up. Next, with four, are Spain (resulting in three winners), Germany (resulting in one winner) and Italy (resulting in two runners up).
- In the two seasons of the Conference League, England have produced a winner and an additional semi-finalist.
- In the past six seasons, England has ranked top of that respective season's coefficient rankings five times.
However, I agree that comparisons to the Championship are bizarre, particularly when if they're going to present La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A and Ligue 1 as being of a similar quality.
That said, the idea that the Championship is in anyway equivalent to other European leagues is based on (as I see it), replacing the 15 teams that aren't Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord in Eredivisie, the 15 teams in Primeira Liga that aren't Porto, Benfica and Sporting, with the best 15 teams from the Championship, and those leagues being no less competitive as a result. I don't really think that's a particularly controversial view. After those leagues, you start looking at Belgium and Scotland, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't view the Scottish league as largely Championship quality.
You are correct that it's "a mind-bogglingly ridiculous assertion" to suggest that Championship is in anyway Europe's second strongest league, but given the drop off after the top five or so leagues, and that the Scottish league has been bouncing between 9th and 11th in the coefficient rankings over the last few years, I don't think it's particularly mad to suggest the Championship would rank in or around the top 15 to 20 (Israel are likely to be the 16th ranked nation after this season).
The problem with what you have said here is that even when Spain was top of the co-efficient (for like 10 years), people in England still said the Premier League was better. I remember it clearly. And Spain was more dominant then than England is now. I mean, even in the results you've listed, there have been more Spanish winners of the Europa League than English over the last 5 years. So I think people in the UK are just predisposed to say that the PL is the best whether it is or not.
Re the notion that if you take the top teams away in Holland, Portugal etc. and replace them with Championship teams - why do you think that is not a controversial view, to think that those leagues would be no less competitve? Surely you can't think that the top Championship teams are in any way equivalent to the top Dutch, Portuguese etc. teams? Or that a middling Championship team is in anyway comparable to a middling Dutch or Portuguese team in their top flights? If so, what's the evidence for that? I'm not sure what you're saying here.
Certainly this week, this set of European results suggest this is correct
Roma, a team sitting 5th in Seria A thumped Brighton 4 - 0. Atlanta sitting 6th thumped Liverpool 3-0 at Anfield. Man Utd and Newcastle finished rock bottom of their Champions league groups (with Man Utd losing to Copenhagen and Galatasaray)
The Premier League isn't just Man City (or Liverpool 2018-22). Them being so much better than other European team doesn't mean the premier league overall is better.
Sheffield, Burnely and Luton dominated the Championship last season and look how they are faring now. These teams would absolutely be fighting relegation in Seria A.
I don’t think this is a vintage European year but let’s be clear here, the EPL is vastly overrated, There are three great sides currently, 2 competent ones (1-5 in PL tell you who these are ) and an incredibly weak Man United and Chelsea that wouldn’t get past the last 8 of the Conference league.
Newcastle, Brighton, West Ham, and Wolves all have potential and finances to develop in the next few years but right now I’d say generally Serie A and La Liga may not have teams as good as Arsenal, City or Liverpool but overall their league strength is much stronger. The top 7 teams in and Spain combined are better, Germany is on par with the PL with good teams and one truly outstanding team which is not Bayern.
I will say this it’s only a matter of time before we see a strong Chelsea and United again and the reason why the so called Big 6 dominate the Deloitte’s table for riches means they can eventually buy success.
Not getting an extra place this year for EPL will be a warning that just because everyone says it and thinks, The PL is the best in the World, that’s not necessarily the case and a reputation such as that needs to be earned year in year out?
Newcastle, Brighton, West Ham, and Wolves all have potential and finances to develop in the next few years but right now I’d say generally Serie A and La Liga may not have teams as good as Arsenal, City or Liverpool but overall their league strength is much stronger. The top 7 teams in and Spain combined are better, Germany is on par with the PL with good teams and one truly outstanding team which is not Bayern.
I will say this it’s only a matter of time before we see a strong Chelsea and United again and the reason why the so called Big 6 dominate the Deloitte’s table for riches means they can eventually buy success.
Not getting an extra place this year for EPL will be a warning that just because everyone says it and thinks, The PL is the best in the World, that’s not necessarily the case and a reputation such as that needs to be earned year in year out?
Anyone saying the Premier League was stronger was talking out of their arse back then though. Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid were all winning the CL or reaching the final, and Sevilla and Atletico Madrid were sweeping up the EL. If your response to other people talking out of their arse about something is to just talk out of your arse about the same thing, but with the opposing view, you're no better.
The fact is that in recent seasons, the PL has clearly produced more teams in the strongest brackets.
I didn't say that the top Championship teams were equivalent to the top Dutch or Portuguese sides, I said they were probably no less competitive than the teams that finish 4th and below. Two teams not Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord have finished inside the Dutch top three in the last 10 years (AZ Alkmaar and Twente). One team not Porto, Benfica or Sporting has finished inside the Portuguese top three in the last 10 years (Braga).
As for "evidence" it's obviously in short supply because of the lack of direct comparisons available, but Wigan and Birmingham have both competed in the Europa League while being Championship clubs in recent(ish) history. Both finished within 2 points of advancing to the knockouts, and Birmingham even beat a Portuguese team to reach the group stage.
This season, AZ finished 6 points short of progression to the Conference League knockouts, and Twente didn't even get through the qualifiers. Even Ajax finished 6 points short of progression to the Europa League knockouts. Braga were beaten by Qarabag in the play-off round of the Europa League, and Vitoria and Arouca didn't even make it to the Conference League group stage.
Last season, Twente failed to make the Conference League group stage, Braga finished third in their Europa League group and were beaten 7-2 on aggregate in the Conference League play-off round, and Gil Vicente and Vitoria failed to make the group stage.
I want to believe it's a wum, nobody can be so daft as to think the premise might be even remotely true, it's incredibly stupid.
The thread was started by someone disagreeing with the premise, to be fair. It was basically made in response to one poster who claimed that Serie A was comparable to the Championship, as not to derail another thread.
As I said in another post, the Scottish league was ranked 9th going into this season, and looks set to drop to 11th this season. The Championship is certainly of a comparable quality there, but without the strength of Celtic/Rangers, so it would probably fall somewhere in and around the top 15 European leagues in terms of overall strength.
OP really made a thread out of a ridiculous argument
We're a farmers league.
Based on this week's results if anything it was being generous.
Not that you can judge too much from one off ties, but I find the idea of a bunch of Championship sides going into Europe's other top leagues and not looking out of place silly. Or similarly, Burnley won the championship last season with over 100 points. Imagine any semi credible top flight team in Italy, Spain, Germany struggling to do well in a league where Burnley are 21 points above 3rd place. It is a silly argument.
End of the day, there is already a cup for the non-elite sides of Europe and Spanish sides nearly always win it
Spanish clubs win it because English teams are too tired to compete...
Premier League is world’s best – that’s why its teams failed in Europe
"How tired is Klopp? Tired enough to quit a job he loves. How tired is his team? Tired enough not to be able to see off a side who are sixth in Serie A and reached their first European semi-final for 36 years on Thursday night. The Premier League does that. It exhausts managers and it exhausts players, and as a consequence fatigued teams start losing games they otherwise would win come the business end of the season."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/sport/fo...hats-why-its-teams-failed-in-europe-5fvtv2xd2
Premier League is world’s best – that’s why its teams failed in Europe
Liverpool, Manchester City, Arsenal and West Ham all exited European competitions this week, reflecting not a lack of talent but the unique demands of English football
Klopp tips his cap to the Liverpool supporters who made the trip to the game against Atalanta but he will not be lifting any more European trophies before he leaves at the end of the season
ANTONIO CALANNI/AP
Martin Hardy
Friday April 19 2024, 4.00pm BST, The Times
It was getting on for midnight local time in Bergamo, northern Italy, and in a room inside the Gewiss Stadium Jürgen Klopp put a hand to his cheek, gave a bemused look and laughed.
Game 52 of the season for Liverpool had not long finished. It was a 1-0 win against Atalanta in the second leg of the Europa League quarter-finals but a 3-1 defeat on aggregate and an exit from the competition. Klopp was out of Europe, for the last time as Liverpool manager.
Klopp, dressed in a red club tracksuit and cap, looked weary as he was asked whether, at this time of the season, it is more about which team is the most exhausted than any sophisticated tactical plans.
City went out of the Champions League at the quarter-final stage, losing to Real Madrid on penalties
MIKE EGERTON/PA
“The Premier League is the best league in the world, I have watched a lot of football and whatever other leagues say — Italy has improved, Spain is fantastic, Bundesliga is there — but the Premier League is the most intense league, definitely,” the 56-year-old German said.
“Besides [Aston] Villa [in the Europa Conference League], all the teams are out in the quarter-finals. Because of extra European games they are getting rid of FA Cup replays. It’s just tricky but it’s not my problem any more. It’s my last European game and I’ll watch it and hopefully not speak any more about these kind of things.”
He looked relieved. The problems of English football are no longer his to be concerned with.
Some context. On Wednesday, Manchester City and Arsenal exited the Champions League. On Thursday morning, the FA, with the backing of the Premier League, announced that replays would be scrapped from the first round onwards in the FA Cup and that the final would be played before the end of the league season. On Thursday afternoon, the Football League alleged that it had not been included in discussions about the changes. On Thursday night, Liverpool and West Ham United went out of the Europa League.
After a penalty shoot-out, Villa at least defeated Lille to stay in the Conference League, the third-tier competition. They are England’s last men standing.
Not for the best part of a decade has England not had a club in the semi-finals of the Champions League or Europa League. That sort of statistic would usually start a significant amount of navel-gazing — about a deterioration of standards, about crisis — but not this time.
Firstly, look at the English clubs’ defeats this week. Shoot-outs give no more an indication of the standard of the respective teams than the flip of a coin they replaced — Villa won theirs, City lost to Real Madrid. Pep Guardiola’s team might even have won had two middle-aged City fans not decided that their desire to keep the ball — blasted into the crowd by Luka Modric after he missed from the spot — as a memento was more important than their team’s fortunes. Instead, Bernardo Silva waited 50 seconds for the ball, struck an awful penalty straight at Andriy Lunin, the momentum shifted and Real went through.
City were the better team against Real. They had more possession, more control, more shots; and a younger, fitter Kevin De Bruyne would have scored the chance he spurned to win the tie.
Arsenal are still a young and inexperienced side at Champions League level. They need to learn. They also need a centre forward. This we already knew. But losing 3-2 over two legs to a Bayern Munich side full of European pedigree hardly spells crisis.
Liverpool would always finish above Atalanta, their Europa League conquerors, in the Premier League. Xabi Alonso has been fêted as the best manager in the world and his Bayer Leverkusen have not lost a game in any competition this season, but they were an 89th-minute equaliser away from doing just that in the second leg against a West Ham side with disgruntled fans and an unpopular manager.
The standard of English football in comparison to our European counterparts is not — as it maybe once was — the concern. The real issue is that, as Klopp alluded to, you cannot have everything.
You cannot have an intense Premier League with ten added minutes every match; games kicking off at all times of every day to suit a worldwide TV audience; the top clubs squeezing every penny possible in order to comply with financial rules; a traditional FA Cup with replays; a League Cup everyone takes seriously from the start; a healthy pyramid where non-League clubs are not crippled by fixture postponements in the winter; an England team that can win the Euros while maintaining the dominance of English club sides in the closing stages of European competitions. Something — or some things — have to give.
Soft-muscle injuries are at their highest level ever in the Premier League. The game is getting faster. Klopp is right, it is the best league. It does not have the best player, Kylian Mbappé, but it has the best teams and it has a stack of brilliant players.
With that in mind — does anyone care that the Premier League is not represented in the closing stages of European competitions?
If they do, cut the players and the managers some slack. Stop taking the proverbial with games on every day of the week. Let people recover. Liverpool flew home from Italy in the early hours of Friday morning. Two days later they will be in Fulham and if they don’t win, any hopes of the Premier League title will most likely be gone.
How tired is Klopp? Tired enough to quit a job he loves. How tired is his team? Tired enough not to be able to see off a side who are sixth in Serie A and reached their first European semi-final for 36 years on Thursday night. The Premier League does that. It exhausts managers and it exhausts players, and as a consequence fatigued teams start losing games they otherwise would win come the business end of the season.
Liverpool, Manchester City, Arsenal and West Ham all exited European competitions this week, reflecting not a lack of talent but the unique demands of English football
Klopp tips his cap to the Liverpool supporters who made the trip to the game against Atalanta but he will not be lifting any more European trophies before he leaves at the end of the season
ANTONIO CALANNI/AP
Martin Hardy
Friday April 19 2024, 4.00pm BST, The Times
It was getting on for midnight local time in Bergamo, northern Italy, and in a room inside the Gewiss Stadium Jürgen Klopp put a hand to his cheek, gave a bemused look and laughed.
Game 52 of the season for Liverpool had not long finished. It was a 1-0 win against Atalanta in the second leg of the Europa League quarter-finals but a 3-1 defeat on aggregate and an exit from the competition. Klopp was out of Europe, for the last time as Liverpool manager.
Klopp, dressed in a red club tracksuit and cap, looked weary as he was asked whether, at this time of the season, it is more about which team is the most exhausted than any sophisticated tactical plans.
City went out of the Champions League at the quarter-final stage, losing to Real Madrid on penalties
MIKE EGERTON/PA
“The Premier League is the best league in the world, I have watched a lot of football and whatever other leagues say — Italy has improved, Spain is fantastic, Bundesliga is there — but the Premier League is the most intense league, definitely,” the 56-year-old German said.
“Besides [Aston] Villa [in the Europa Conference League], all the teams are out in the quarter-finals. Because of extra European games they are getting rid of FA Cup replays. It’s just tricky but it’s not my problem any more. It’s my last European game and I’ll watch it and hopefully not speak any more about these kind of things.”
He looked relieved. The problems of English football are no longer his to be concerned with.
Some context. On Wednesday, Manchester City and Arsenal exited the Champions League. On Thursday morning, the FA, with the backing of the Premier League, announced that replays would be scrapped from the first round onwards in the FA Cup and that the final would be played before the end of the league season. On Thursday afternoon, the Football League alleged that it had not been included in discussions about the changes. On Thursday night, Liverpool and West Ham United went out of the Europa League.
After a penalty shoot-out, Villa at least defeated Lille to stay in the Conference League, the third-tier competition. They are England’s last men standing.
Not for the best part of a decade has England not had a club in the semi-finals of the Champions League or Europa League. That sort of statistic would usually start a significant amount of navel-gazing — about a deterioration of standards, about crisis — but not this time.
Firstly, look at the English clubs’ defeats this week. Shoot-outs give no more an indication of the standard of the respective teams than the flip of a coin they replaced — Villa won theirs, City lost to Real Madrid. Pep Guardiola’s team might even have won had two middle-aged City fans not decided that their desire to keep the ball — blasted into the crowd by Luka Modric after he missed from the spot — as a memento was more important than their team’s fortunes. Instead, Bernardo Silva waited 50 seconds for the ball, struck an awful penalty straight at Andriy Lunin, the momentum shifted and Real went through.
City were the better team against Real. They had more possession, more control, more shots; and a younger, fitter Kevin De Bruyne would have scored the chance he spurned to win the tie.
Arsenal are still a young and inexperienced side at Champions League level. They need to learn. They also need a centre forward. This we already knew. But losing 3-2 over two legs to a Bayern Munich side full of European pedigree hardly spells crisis.
Liverpool would always finish above Atalanta, their Europa League conquerors, in the Premier League. Xabi Alonso has been fêted as the best manager in the world and his Bayer Leverkusen have not lost a game in any competition this season, but they were an 89th-minute equaliser away from doing just that in the second leg against a West Ham side with disgruntled fans and an unpopular manager.
The standard of English football in comparison to our European counterparts is not — as it maybe once was — the concern. The real issue is that, as Klopp alluded to, you cannot have everything.
You cannot have an intense Premier League with ten added minutes every match; games kicking off at all times of every day to suit a worldwide TV audience; the top clubs squeezing every penny possible in order to comply with financial rules; a traditional FA Cup with replays; a League Cup everyone takes seriously from the start; a healthy pyramid where non-League clubs are not crippled by fixture postponements in the winter; an England team that can win the Euros while maintaining the dominance of English club sides in the closing stages of European competitions. Something — or some things — have to give.
Soft-muscle injuries are at their highest level ever in the Premier League. The game is getting faster. Klopp is right, it is the best league. It does not have the best player, Kylian Mbappé, but it has the best teams and it has a stack of brilliant players.
With that in mind — does anyone care that the Premier League is not represented in the closing stages of European competitions?
If they do, cut the players and the managers some slack. Stop taking the proverbial with games on every day of the week. Let people recover. Liverpool flew home from Italy in the early hours of Friday morning. Two days later they will be in Fulham and if they don’t win, any hopes of the Premier League title will most likely be gone.
How tired is Klopp? Tired enough to quit a job he loves. How tired is his team? Tired enough not to be able to see off a side who are sixth in Serie A and reached their first European semi-final for 36 years on Thursday night. The Premier League does that. It exhausts managers and it exhausts players, and as a consequence fatigued teams start losing games they otherwise would win come the business end of the season.
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It really is the perfect argument. If English teams win in Europe, it’s because the PL is the best league in Europe and the teams are competing against the best week in week out so they’re used to a high level of competition. If English teams lose in Europe, it’s because the PL is the best league in Europe and the teams are competing against the best week in week out so they’re tired. Whichever way you spin it, you can’t lose
I tell my wife I'm too tired as well but she still left me for a young Spaniard
As a Leicester fan, the football in the Championship has been as good as it has been painful to watch at times.
No VAR and some of the officiating makes me look forward to our return to the Premier League.
I’d say the top 4 clubs, Leicester, Ipswich, Leeds and Southampton would have given most of the lower end of the table Premier League teams a good game.
If we look across Europe though, I think each league has its big clubs. I’d fancy Leicesters chances in Belgium, Scotland, Netherlands etc to be amongst the top teams within those divisions. We are never beating the likes of Inter, Dortmund, PSG, etc though.
The number of games will obviously play a factor as well.
No VAR and some of the officiating makes me look forward to our return to the Premier League.
I’d say the top 4 clubs, Leicester, Ipswich, Leeds and Southampton would have given most of the lower end of the table Premier League teams a good game.
If we look across Europe though, I think each league has its big clubs. I’d fancy Leicesters chances in Belgium, Scotland, Netherlands etc to be amongst the top teams within those divisions. We are never beating the likes of Inter, Dortmund, PSG, etc though.
The number of games will obviously play a factor as well.