Yep. The conventional narrative is that we've got a rotten dressing room, but it's just as likely they've given up on the manager after seeing his limitations.
Are the players trying to push out Solksjaer?
- Thread starter redIndianDevil
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Yep. Great post.
The players just don't care period. Send the scouts down to the lower divisions and find players who are hungry.
I assure you that football is not the only industry were people get paid loads of money for a relatively short career. Which leads us to our situation. We gave shitloads of money to players who are clearly not good enough. At United they will be able to earn more in a year then they can earn in 3 years elsewhere. Do you think that they will allow some guy from Molde or anywhere really to ruin their good thing going? We've got a Bogarde situation but on a massive scale.
Also most of our players are the latter type. They are the most dangerous (although the likes of Mata or Martial will probably struggle to get paid as well as they do at United unless they go to China). That's why I always hated the long servants of the club term. Sure top talented players like Scholes, Giggs and co should be loved and cherished as they could have easily walked into other clubs for bigger money. But the likes of OShea, Lingard and Phil Nev? Where the feck could they go if not United? Sunderland? Everton? China?
You'd be naive if they're looking for trophies. They love weak manager that give them contracts. It's business. It all started with 5 out 6 in, the deadwoods are fighting for their wages by getting ole the sack. Probably not the sack but another year of wobble performance will see ole gets the boot and a new chance to proge themselves under new manager all over again
Jose tried to rid them but they got the better of him.
Problem is... realistically we cant ship 10 deadwoods. A logically adept dof might want a clearout, and guess what... players downtools again.... dof got the boot, player survives to see another manager.
Our problem isnt manager, 4 managers should give us enough samples to know that maybe the problem isnt managerial. Sure some of them aren't good enough, but i refuse to believe the likes of lvg and mourinho which has tasted success everywhere suddenly becomes a moron overnight
How does this work when the side happens to be one of, if not the laziest in the entire division?
I could imagine City or Liverpool being burnt out. They're not, of course but they've run through walls this season. But United? Nah, it's a shoddy excuse.
In fact it's the worst of a long list of laughable excuses rolled out for these absolute wastes of space.
Surely it's more of a labour voter trait to support the worker over the boss?
But you are right that its laughable that there are some who still can't see what's as clear as day now for most.
Our players are horrible little shits who dont like the idea of managers realising they are a collection of spineless cnuts and attempting to get them out of the club so they have to go and play at clubs that are actually their level, with the wages to match.
Its easy to get rid of a manager, just be shit, like this lot have been.
The next manager comes in, they will do the same.
They are a disgusting bunch and need booting out.
Its easy to get rid of a manager, just be shit, like this lot have been.
The next manager comes in, they will do the same.
They are a disgusting bunch and need booting out.
I don't think players just give up on or don't try for a manager because they don't think he's very good. That makes no sense.
A number of the players including Pogba also publicly said they wanted Ole to stay so there's little sense at all to the idea they want him sacked. I think that's just trying to look for a simple answer as to why they don't seem able to perform.
It's more likely a number of factors. Some lack confidence and are demotivatrd as a result. Some just don't have the mentality for it. Some just simply aren't that good.
Unfortunately there just aren't many managers who can bring out motivation and mental strength in players who don't have it naturally within themselves. Ferguson was one. Klopp maybe is. Can't think of too many others. Mourinho was seen as that but I think it's more that he doesn't like/tolerate players who aren't naturally like that, rather than being able to mould them into it. Hence he just ends up falling out with players.
You have to look at it from the point of view that these are people and sportsmen. Regardless of how professional or otherwise they might be, they aren't going to go into a game not wanting to win. It would have to be full on hostility with the manager to come to that.
What would help I think is a sense of direction or purpose to anything that we do. Ole has fallen into the trap of trying something new in every game purely because it's different from what he tried the last time. This is usually a sign of doom for a manager. Players can be motivated by someone who has a direction and a conviction to it...you either get with the plan and the standards required for it or you get left behind. You can't get with the plan if there's a new one twice a week, and you can't get left behind when no one knows where they're supposed to be going.
A number of the players including Pogba also publicly said they wanted Ole to stay so there's little sense at all to the idea they want him sacked. I think that's just trying to look for a simple answer as to why they don't seem able to perform.
It's more likely a number of factors. Some lack confidence and are demotivatrd as a result. Some just don't have the mentality for it. Some just simply aren't that good.
Unfortunately there just aren't many managers who can bring out motivation and mental strength in players who don't have it naturally within themselves. Ferguson was one. Klopp maybe is. Can't think of too many others. Mourinho was seen as that but I think it's more that he doesn't like/tolerate players who aren't naturally like that, rather than being able to mould them into it. Hence he just ends up falling out with players.
You have to look at it from the point of view that these are people and sportsmen. Regardless of how professional or otherwise they might be, they aren't going to go into a game not wanting to win. It would have to be full on hostility with the manager to come to that.
What would help I think is a sense of direction or purpose to anything that we do. Ole has fallen into the trap of trying something new in every game purely because it's different from what he tried the last time. This is usually a sign of doom for a manager. Players can be motivated by someone who has a direction and a conviction to it...you either get with the plan and the standards required for it or you get left behind. You can't get with the plan if there's a new one twice a week, and you can't get left behind when no one knows where they're supposed to be going.
And yet the club has given them 1 manager who wants to pump endless crosses, 1 manager who wants to play possession, 1 manager who doesn't teach attacking movement and doesn't care how a win is achieved, and now 1 manager with no credentials.
SO much of the support kills these players for not playing for the shirt. Nevermind the wages, just think of how poorly the club has fostered any development, you know, that thing that young people especially look for in their careers. It's no wonder they find it tough to muster some level of faux confidence to perform week in and week out.
No your right, but thats why choosing the manager is such a hard and important job. Which we have struggled to get right. You need to hire someone that can handle the squad you have, also build towards the squad you want who is also going to be able to deal with the size of the club.
You look at the Mourinho appointment, LVG left us with a young squad that needed a good coaching and a fan base who demand attacking football. So what did we do, we hired Mourinho who likes to work with experienced players, isn't renowned as a great improver of players but as some one who can pragmatically plug in players who know what they are doing into his system and grind out results.
Credit where credit is due Ole was the perfect short term appointment to make everyone at the club smile again.
But long term what we need is a group of people including a director of football who are going to oversee a back to square one rebuild of the football side of Man United. What do we do, appoint a manager who has never done anything like that and who seems obsessed with how things where done 20 years ago, and by all accounts if we get a director of football it will be some one along the same lines a Phelan or a Ferdinand. Some one who 'understands the fabric of the club' and tats their main qualification, that simply isn't enough and it isn't nessicarily a good thing either as the fabric of the club if very obviously broken and stuck in the past.
I agree that most of our squad is over paid, over rated players and no i don't think they are gonna organise any kind of revolt, i just think they are gonna continue what they are doing now of not really caring very much. Which is worrying as probably around 80% of this squad will be here next season.
So we need to start looking at what got us into this mess, that thats 10 years of bad management and investment, going back to before Fergie left. We need to start bringing in people who are going to make better decisions so in a few years we arn't sitting here going how did we get into this mess, but we are talking about how we are starting to turn things around.
The question is is Ole the man to start this process, he obviously can't motivate this current group of players anymore most of which will be here next season, he has no experience of rebuilding the footballing side of a club especially not one as big as this club, his only real history of anything resembling big transfer dealings was at Cardiff which was an unmitigated disaster and their isn't even a infrastructure at the club to support him, plus he has final say anyway.
Ole came here to brighten the mood. The moment that he became permanent his "play for the badge" stuff he constantly put on repeat likely annoyed players.
It's mental fatigue. From a mental standpoint, it's been a really rough season. You only have to look at comments from fans who just want the season to be over. Let's play our last, meaningless game... and take a break. Then get a proper pre-season, use the Europa League to give players games... and see if we can't do something next season.
And they gave them one manager whos previous team would run through walls for him, a multi title winning manager, a manager who has won multiple european cups and multiple leagues across the continent, and an ex player who is closer to their age and more in line with modern styles of play.
Oh the humanity HOW EVER WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO DEVELOP AND PLAY FOOTBALL UNDER THESE TERRIBLE CONDITIONS.
They are a lazy, worthless collection of shite, some of which have been shit *even under the greatest manager the league has ever seen*.
They are not worthy of your time defending them it doesnt matter who you put in charge of them, they will fail.
Personally think its a mixture of both, which is why things are so doom ad gloom at the moment.
- Our players either don't seem good enough or don't seem like they want to be here or just want the cash.
- Our manager seems in over his head, has shown nothing in his managerial career to show he has it in him to to rebuild the footballing side of the club and seems obsessed in the past
- Our board seem to have little knowledge of how you run the footballing side of a club well in the 21st century
- Our owners are really only interested in the money they get from the club
- Our supporters are massively divided
- Our stadium is even starting too look tatty in a lot of the non pitch side areas.
The players lack the competitive attitude in them to compete. They are a complete let down!
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Yep, can't argue with any of that.
The players are not trying to push out Ole - that's verging on the ridiculous to say but given the kinds of things being written on the redcafe these days and in the mainstream media, I shouldn't be surprised.
The fundamental problem with Manchester United? None of the heart and soul that came from its British and Irish backbone in the days of Keano, Giggsy, the Nev brothers, Beckham, Scholes, none of that which came from inspired foreign signings such as Cantona Le Roi, no British players such as Rio and Carrick, no Vidic, no Evra etc etc rinse and repeat.
Where are the leaders? They've gone and were not replaced. That was one of the worst things about Mourinho although I did defend him on here and still think United employed him too late although I was against the idea of his being Sir Alex's successor. Where were the leaders? Where were the backbone of the team?
The British/Irish players understood what it was to be Manchester United players but even a Frenchman such as Eric got it. This problem is about identity as much as anything. There's no concept anymore of what it is to be a Manchester United player, this is about character.
Paul Pogba gets slagged off a lot but needs players around him who are willing to take on responsibility. We need that British/Irish base that was the soul of the successful Manchester United as well as foreign players. All the money in the world cannot buy character and certainly that was not Mourinho's priority.
The fundamental problem with Manchester United? None of the heart and soul that came from its British and Irish backbone in the days of Keano, Giggsy, the Nev brothers, Beckham, Scholes, none of that which came from inspired foreign signings such as Cantona Le Roi, no British players such as Rio and Carrick, no Vidic, no Evra etc etc rinse and repeat.
Where are the leaders? They've gone and were not replaced. That was one of the worst things about Mourinho although I did defend him on here and still think United employed him too late although I was against the idea of his being Sir Alex's successor. Where were the leaders? Where were the backbone of the team?
The British/Irish players understood what it was to be Manchester United players but even a Frenchman such as Eric got it. This problem is about identity as much as anything. There's no concept anymore of what it is to be a Manchester United player, this is about character.
Paul Pogba gets slagged off a lot but needs players around him who are willing to take on responsibility. We need that British/Irish base that was the soul of the successful Manchester United as well as foreign players. All the money in the world cannot buy character and certainly that was not Mourinho's priority.
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Any player who was trying to feck with ole should have their contact torn up and be sacked on the spot. Ole contributed more to this club in any single season he was here than the while lot of the current shower of drizzling shits combined across their total time here.
No they're not. You have some top class players frustrated by being stuck in mediocrity but still trying their best (DeGea, Pogba), some top class players who seem like they simply don't care about anything except cashing in their wages (Sanchez, Matic) and then you have some players that are actually giving it their all but who simply aren't up to the standards needed in order to raise this club (Jones, Young, Lukaku). The rest are relatively young ones who needs role models and are stuck in a squad that has no strong leaders within it setting the bar. This team was performing consistently worse before Ole got here - don't forget that - they have actually improved - so I doubt very much they're sabotaging on purpose. And also we've been unlucky too some of the goals are just complete blunders the kind you'd expect to see two leagues down which tells there's a lack of confidence and focus brewing as well.
The team however isn't the complete disaster some are making it out to be. There are some players who needs to go if we are to race against the top clubs though sure - a couple of them for lacking heart and a few more for simply being below the standard required to get us there.
The team however isn't the complete disaster some are making it out to be. There are some players who needs to go if we are to race against the top clubs though sure - a couple of them for lacking heart and a few more for simply being below the standard required to get us there.
Don't bother, these types would defend the pathetic players over even Sir Alex. For them, it can never be the fault of the players and only ever the fault of the manager. They genuinely believe someone like Mourinho doesn't reach attacking players Despite United having a coaching set up that includes attack coaches, defensive coaches and the rest. Some claim it was just luck in each of his successful seasons to have quality attackers.
The severe lack of common sense applied to judging a United manager is well documented here.
Your use of the words 'role models' says it all. Correctly. This is a fundamental problem with Manchester United.
The younger ones can't step up without some real leadership. No use looking to Pogba for everything - he is United's most productive player on his day and has proved himself in the World Cup and Champion's League. But leadership has to come from elsewhere and we do not have any players familiar with the Manchester United culture that can provide it.
I would say they would have to be utterly insane to think that was a good idea and even go through with it. Only a mad person would think like that.
If we had players capable of such sociopathic stupidity, it would be great if we could smoke them out to get rid of them, though.
Like voting for right wing governments for 40 years. "Surely this time they'll have my interests at heart."
Or like blaming Manchester United managers for the failings of the board and players (as well as their own failures of course, everyone has them).
Indeed. Though the football that season only turned really bad after Zlatan’s injury. Before then we were dominating poor opponents and creating plenty of chances; the awful finishing wasn’t just down to him.
Pogba was by no means consistently brilliant in his first season, but that could be down to getting used to the league. He clearly respected, and enjoyed playing alongside, Zlatan and his attitude couldn’t be faulted. It’s not really the fault of our “star” players that we’ve recruited ones that aren’t leaders.
What's stupid about wanting a clueless manager out? Players don't have any powers once a manager has been appointed. They can't walkout or talk to the press.
How is Solksjaer ruining it for them other than by being crap? They get paid regardless of whether they play or not, that's what they sign up for. If Solkjaer is trying to push out a player with a big contract, the player gets paid out either by us or by the club he goes to(as we will have to reduce the transfer fee). The only thing the players lose is their careers.
You think a player downing tools under four managers is intelligently dealing with the situation? I’d say such a player is stupid, and the only way he would not be sold off to Grimsby is if the leadership will sack the manager rather than such a player. And you would be stupid to want to play for a club with that kind of leadership.
Anyone who downed tools for Moyes left in the same year Moyes left. I'd be mad with the players if they haven't downed tools on an idiot like Moyes (asking Ferdinand and Vidic of all people to look at Phil fecking Jagielka). LvG had a different set of players who were mad at him (Di Maria, Rafael etc) and against Mourinho it was a different bunch of players(Pogba, Martial etc). It's not the same set of players is it?
DDG - Premier League winner, F.A Cup winner, Europa League winner x 2, League Cup winner
Pogba - Serie A winner x 4, Coppa Italia winner x 2, World Cup winner (last Summer...), Europa League winner, League Cup winner
Lindelof - Premeira Liga winner x 3, Taca de Portugal winner x 2, Taca de Liga winner
Sanchez - La Liga winner, Copa del Rey winner, F.A Cup winner x 2
Dalot - Premeira Liga winner (last season)
I could go on...
These players are all trophy winners, many of them serial trophy winners, of major trophies.
Why would they push him out? He lets them get away with murder week in week out. The likes of Jones, Young, Rashford and others know their place in the team is secure with Ole around.
You're not understanding. Players know United's targets and they also know that they are not good enough. If any manager consolidate power then they will be the ones out. Thus they don't allow that to ever happen. The cycle is always the same. A new managers comes in promising a clean sleet, they do well at first, then once talks about reform start popping out bam results nosedives. The only exception being when they are heading towards the end of their contract when suddenly they learn how to play football again (Shaw, Martial, Young etc). Then once they signed a new contract then we're back to mediocrity.
Both Mou and Ole stress on workrate and yet we're one of the laziest teams in the EPL despite having a team which is packed with work mules. Isn't that strange? Also don't you find it convenient that results nosedive once Ole became the permanent manager? Before he had no administrative powers whatsoever, therefore he had no power to choose who will stay and who will be kicked out.
I don't know if Ole is suited for the job. If you take his 'this squad need minor tweek' BS I doubt he is. However, we're heading to our 5th manager in 7 years. Don't you think that this issue is way bigger then the manager?
Hasnt even had the chance to get in players to compete with them, yet he's already judged.
It could be that we keep appointing the wrong manager...?
Moyes - laughable, eccentric appointment
LvG - past it, still won a trophy and at least had a philosophy
Mourinho - opposite to previous philosophy, won 2 trophies, finished 2nd, dull footy
Solskjaer - eccentric appointment, lets wait and see
Hooking up with 4 girls from nightclubs over a 7 month period, who all turn out not to be your soul-mate, doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with you...
Plenty more fish in the sea. Plenty of very good managers out there.
I do not think that for one sec - these players would try to actively sabotage Ole. Losing sucks big time if you are a professional player.
There can be combination of one or more of multiple reasons why things dont work out - Players not the right profile for style of footballl, confidence issues, lack of leaders, distracted stars, fitness issues post world cup.
No way they go home and sleep happy knowing Ole has been put under additional pressure.
This from a Chelsea fan where managers are treated like chump change.
There can be combination of one or more of multiple reasons why things dont work out - Players not the right profile for style of footballl, confidence issues, lack of leaders, distracted stars, fitness issues post world cup.
No way they go home and sleep happy knowing Ole has been put under additional pressure.
This from a Chelsea fan where managers are treated like chump change.
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I would have given them the benefit of the doubt if there wasn't such discrepancy in terms of results. The same Mourinho who looked clueless this season, took us to second place last season. Same with Ole. He started so well only for our performance to nosedive the moment he got his permanent contract. Its evident that there are people in the club who are want and are benefiting from this chaos. Sure as hell this is not the manager we're talking about. Also we don't really need a manager to take Huddersfield down. They are dire.
If I remember well we've got the second highest salary bill in football with so little talent to justify it with. If the manager is pushing for a huge change in personnel then its only natural for them to resist it. I mean look at this squad. Who would be able to get a contract that matches what they already got with us? DDG, Pogba, Herrera, maybe Mata but that is all. No Real will be sniffing at our British core they are just too shit. Same with the likes of Bailly, Rojo, Matic and Lukaku.
We seem to forget that we're talking about real people here. No one likes to decide between getting a massive pay cut or end up playing in China
I don't believe that United players are trying to force the manager out, but there is no way in the world that they respect him. There is simply no evidence whatsoever of that. Sad as it is to say, it is not the honour of playing for a great club like United that inspires many of the players in the dressing room, it is their lavish contracts, extra-curricular ventures and social profile. That is by no means unique to United, but I do sense that it has become more and more a feature of the club's culture.
I believe that the Club has contributed to this situation with recruiting and contracting missteps, the Alexis Sanchez example being the most calamitous. However, offering players new contracts who are clearly past their best and probably would not get in any other top six team, doesn't help either.
We under-estimate just how much the modern game of professional football has changed since the departure of Sir Alex. The power in any football club sits with the players, supported by their retinue of agents, handlers and image makers. Sadly, this is exactly the culture that prevails at United, perhaps even more so than elsewhere because of the vast sums at United's disposal. Can you seriously imagine the likes of Sanchez, Martial, Pogba and others performing and behaving as they have under Sir Alex? There are players at United openly disrespecting the club's badge by flirting with the prospect of transfers to other clubs in Europe. Such a thing would have been unheard of six years ago. Sir Alex would have marched them out of the club and paid their cab fare down the road. Not just that, but can you imagine, Keane, Neville or Ferdinand tolerating some of the lethargic performances we have seen on the pitch?
For me, by the far and away the biggest challenge that Ole Gunnar Solksjaer faces at United is to restore a culture of professionalism and respect for the rich traditions of Manchester United. "We are United" either has to mean something or it will mean nothing. For Ole, he needs to find a way to remind the players of the honour that they have playing for the club, without making himself seem unworthy of the honour to manage it. The constant references he makes to "Sir Alex" are unhelpful and only serve to remind the players who and what he is not, not who and what he is. Ole needs to start talking like a Manchester United manager and do so soon or this could get very messy, very quickly.
I believe that the Club has contributed to this situation with recruiting and contracting missteps, the Alexis Sanchez example being the most calamitous. However, offering players new contracts who are clearly past their best and probably would not get in any other top six team, doesn't help either.
We under-estimate just how much the modern game of professional football has changed since the departure of Sir Alex. The power in any football club sits with the players, supported by their retinue of agents, handlers and image makers. Sadly, this is exactly the culture that prevails at United, perhaps even more so than elsewhere because of the vast sums at United's disposal. Can you seriously imagine the likes of Sanchez, Martial, Pogba and others performing and behaving as they have under Sir Alex? There are players at United openly disrespecting the club's badge by flirting with the prospect of transfers to other clubs in Europe. Such a thing would have been unheard of six years ago. Sir Alex would have marched them out of the club and paid their cab fare down the road. Not just that, but can you imagine, Keane, Neville or Ferdinand tolerating some of the lethargic performances we have seen on the pitch?
For me, by the far and away the biggest challenge that Ole Gunnar Solksjaer faces at United is to restore a culture of professionalism and respect for the rich traditions of Manchester United. "We are United" either has to mean something or it will mean nothing. For Ole, he needs to find a way to remind the players of the honour that they have playing for the club, without making himself seem unworthy of the honour to manage it. The constant references he makes to "Sir Alex" are unhelpful and only serve to remind the players who and what he is not, not who and what he is. Ole needs to start talking like a Manchester United manager and do so soon or this could get very messy, very quickly.
This doesn't make sense. If the players thought he wasn't good enough then why did they play well for him as an interim? Players aren't stupid and know if an interim manager does well, they usually become permanent. The players knew this so by your logic they would have tanked during the interim period so Ole does not become permanent.
Our downfall, I think, started after the back to back matches with Liverpool and PSG. In both matches we lost 2 key players in the first 20 minutes and from then on we didn't look good. The PSG miracle kind of papered over the cracks and kept the euphoria going. This is when Ole started to play more defensive because of the injuries and the number of matches to be played.
Our downfall, I think, started after the back to back matches with Liverpool and PSG. In both matches we lost 2 key players in the first 20 minutes and from then on we didn't look good. The PSG miracle kind of papered over the cracks and kept the euphoria going. This is when Ole started to play more defensive because of the injuries and the number of matches to be played.