Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?

[jackal&hyde]

We've had a good window but it doesn't look like we'll get the midfielder most of us want. So if that does end up being the case, then I'm looking at Ole and the coaching staff to find internal solutions to balance the midfield from the below options already at the club.

Pogba
Fred
McTominay
Hannibal
Matic
VdB
Bruno

Bruno is currently playing as a second striker but could play as a #8, which may affect his output but it may mean we function better as a collective. Solskjaer has the opportunity to gain a lot of credit here.

Taking Bruno from the 10/SS long term is a sackable offence imo. 4-3-3 just doesn't suit the players we have and we should forget about it. Why do people want 4-3-3 anyway?

It will be McTominay and Fred as first choice with hopefully the introduction of DVB.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Taking Bruno from the 10/SS long term is a sackable offence imo. 4-3-3 just doesn't suit the players we have and we should forget about it. Why do people want 4-3-3 anyway?

It will be McTominay and Fred as first choice with hopefully the introduction of DVB.

Not if it leads to the betterment of the team which I think it would.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Not if it leads to the betterment of the team which I think it would.

Based on what?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Based on what?

Improving the shape of the team and leading to more numbers in midfield making it easier to keep the ball.

 

[devilish]

Brace yourself to a year of McFred

 

[Highfather_24]

Nothing, sadly.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Improving the shape of the team and leading to more numbers in midfield making it easier to keep the ball.

These a few of the problems with 4-3-3 for us:
1) No DM
2) The best nr10/SS in World football would have to be sacrificed (sackable offence imo; something Arteta might do)
3) A Pogba that needs at Juve and France 2 mids to cover for him, making Bruno even more restricted
4) No attacking right back

The shape of 4-2-3-1 has no issues. Our problems have been poor quality in same areas and a lack of balance. We fixed improving 1on 1 defending at center back, right wing and major upgrade in CF. Better quality in mid to move the ball better and faster up front would be great but we could only do so much in one window.

I don't get this new found obsession with 4-3-3 for some United fans.

 

[DJ_21]

4-3-3 with a quality DM will allow us to play more expansive football. Just look at city and all the other top teams who have a top DM, it’s the position that makes the team tick and gives freedom to the forward players. 4-2-3-1 works for us against the top teams because we have protection with the 2 sitting and then using the front 4 for counters. We need a lot more against the teams that sit back though, we can’t be using mcfred against low block teams as they offer nothing going forward and means we have to play 1 less attack minded player.

 

[Borys]

I keep saying this since Sancho signed, we should have sold Pogba for any decent money and buy a proper midfielder.
Now we have about 7 players (Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho, Martial) for 4 positions, PLUS Pogba who can't play in midfield two. It's nice to have him as an LW/LM/AM option but we are already pretty stocked in that position.

I can't take seriously people who think we can play Ronaldo without an industrial midfield behind. Check in how many defensive actions our forwards are involved.

McFred is the least of our problems, and even they aren't good enough on individual level.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

On paper we had a great year, but the midfield is a mess and without astute coaching to make up for our weaknesses, that'll cost us multiple times this season. Yes, we had the same players last season, but we struggled in big games last year as well, Matic was a year younger, and Cavani/Rashford put in a lot of effort tracking back as opposed to what Ronaldo and Sancho will offer. It's an imbalanced side, and you're only as good as your weakest link.

 

[devilish]

I keep saying this since Sancho signed, we should have sold Pogba for any decent money and buy a proper midfielder.
Now we have about 7 players (Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho, Martial) for 4 positions, PLUS Pogba who can't play in midfield two. It's nice to have him as an LW/LM/AM option but we are already pretty stocked in that position.

I can't take seriously people who think we can play Ronaldo without an industrial midfield behind. Check in how much defensive actions our forwards are involved.

McFred is the least of our problems, and even they aren't good enough on individual level.

The trouble for that is Mino Raiola. Mino is aiming for a huge last pay cheque for Pogba either as a free agent or in the form of a ridiculously high salary at United. He won't let that slip by agreeing for a move now. We should have dealt with Pogba last year. This year we're basically doing his bidding.

United could have done better on other areas though

a- Why were Mata and Grant given new contract extensions? Haven't we learnt anything from the Jones saga?
b- Why haven't we sold VDB, Lingard and James early on? Its evident that the manager doesn't like the former while the latter are simply not good enough
c- When will we finally lose hope on Martial? Its evident that the guy needs a change.

If we tackled those issues then we could have easily been able to afford a CM, probably 2.

Ole need to deliver now. Ole inners can't blame this on the board especially after we signed Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. If he wanted more players then all he had to do is to take some tough decisions which are normal at this level.

 

[AneRu]

Except Matic is a DM and Fred and McT are not.

The person you quoted is living in the clouds saying any of the three can do the "Busquets role", but Matic is the only one in the squad that can actually play as the DM in a three. We've never played Matic-Pogba-Fernandes in that system as a proper 4-3-3.

Might be worth a shot at this point, really.

Matic is just not a viable option at this level, this is the lie that Ole has told himself and it might cost him. In all the planning we can make we should discount Matic, in reality we only have Fred and McTominay because Pogba and VDB don't have the necessary off the ball game to play there against decent opposition.

 

[Andycoleno9]

I really hope to see VDB on dmc. I think that he could be good there.

 

[Borys]

The trouble for that is Mino Raiola. Mino is aiming for a huge last pay cheque for Pogba either as a free agent or in the form of a ridiculously high salary at United. He won't let that slip by agreeing for a move now. We should have dealt with Pogba last year. This year we're basically doing his bidding.

United could have done better on other areas though

a- Why were Mata and Grant given new contract extensions? Haven't we learnt anything from the Jones saga?
b- Why haven't we sold VDB, Lingard and James early on? Its evident that the manager doesn't like the former while the latter are simply not good enough
c- When will we finally lose hope on Martial? Its evident that the guy needs a change.

If we tackled those issues then we could have easily been able to afford a CM, probably 2.

Ole need to deliver now. Ole inners can't blame this on the board especially after we signed Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. If he wanted more players then all he had to do is to take some tough decisions which are normal at this level.

I agree with you on all points, only I'm not sure how easy/difficult it is to sell players. If we don't move any of Lingard, Martial, Jones this window then it's bizarre. Surely we must consider an option they don't want to move?

 

[largelyworried]

Im not sure what Oles plan is here to be honest. I generally think he’s got most of his transfer work spot on, but he’s taking one hell of a risk here. Unless he thinks VDB is an option, we have Fred, McT and Matic as our only real midfielders. Matic looks like his legs have finally gone. Pogba just isn’t an option in centre mid except against very compliant teams. So in terms of realistic options we’re looking at two midfielders for two slots. That’s reckless. What happens if one gets injured?

In his first summer transfer window Ole took a risk by not picking up any senior attackers. That almost backfired and we had to pick up Bruno in the winter window to save our season. But in that year Ole had lower targets. Top 4 was just acceptable for a team that had missed out on the CL so often. This season the stakes are way higher. We’re expected to be up there challenging for the title. Scraping top 4 probably wouldn’t save his job.

Fred and McT have been taking pelters recently from United fans but personally I think they are both just about acceptable as a base to build up from, even if both can certainly be upgraded. But by relying on them to both manage 50+ games this season, OLe risking is own job.

 

[Devil may care]

Pretty much throughout his entire time with the French squad he has played in a double pivot with Kante. In the last two years Deschamps has also added 3 at the back in their repertoire and packed the midfield.

However they play a double pivot AND a packed midfield it's not just one. Proving that Pogba can play in BOTH. So the narrative he can't play in a double pivot is a FOOLS one. He won a World Cup in one.

And to your Rabiot comment, In the last Euros against Portugal it was a DOUBLE PIVOT. The previous Euros before the last DOUBLE PIVOT, Nations League he was playing in a DOUBLE PIVOT, Euro qualifiers guess what… BINGO, DOUBLE PIVOT. All playing against different nations that have different playing styles, different tempos. All showing he's more than capable of doing it. And win trophies while doing it.

They went with a midfield 3 in 2 of their 4 matches the other two were a double pivot.

So the foolish sentiment he can't is just stupid, the issue is his partner doesn't have the discipline like I said.

It wasn't a double pivot, in the Euros it was a 3 man midfield, in the World Cup Deschamps sacrificed the left wing to play Matuidi there to tuck in and make it a 3, and no international football is close to the pace of the PL. Playing Pogba in the double pivot is not only a defensive headache no matter who he is paired with, but it also prevents him from playing his best football which is creating in the final 3rd.

 

[sdb4884]

Surely we sold James to get a CM in ? Or else what was the point of the transfer ?

 

[sullydnl]

Surely we sold James to get a CM in ? Or else what was the point of the transfer ?

We signed Ronaldo. Selling James seemed to be a consequence of that.

 

[Deery]

Surely we sold James to get a CM in ? Or else what was the point of the transfer ?

Too many players with Amad coming back and Ronaldo coming in.

 

[Mr Smith]

He's going to do a circa Fergie 2012/13; hope we can get away with it by having world class defenders and forwards. Going to be a fun season

 

[KD6-3.7]

Going into the new season with McFred is piss poor management on his part. We didn't even attempt to get someone by the looks of it.

And our coaching staff definitely isn't good enough to work around that weakness but instead exposes it even more especially when things aren't going well.

 

[Red Shorts]

Anyone have a feeling about a surprise deadline CM, or stick with what we have?

 

[Desert Eagle]

Im not sure what Oles plan is here to be honest. I generally think he’s got most of his transfer work spot on, but he’s taking one hell of a risk here. Unless he thinks VDB is an option, we have Fred, McT and Matic as our only real midfielders. Matic looks like his legs have finally gone. Pogba just isn’t an option in centre mid except against very compliant teams. So in terms of realistic options we’re looking at two midfielders for two slots. That’s reckless. What happens if one gets injured?

In his first summer transfer window Ole took a risk by not picking up any senior attackers. That almost backfired and we had to pick up Bruno in the winter window to save our season. But in that year Ole had lower targets. Top 4 was just acceptable for a team that had missed out on the CL so often. This season the stakes are way higher. We’re expected to be up there challenging for the title. Scraping top 4 probably wouldn’t save his job.

Fred and McT have been taking pelters recently from United fans but personally I think they are both just about acceptable as a base to build up from, even if both can certainly be upgraded. But by relying on them to both manage 50+ games this season, OLe risking is own job.

This cannot be stressed enough. One Mctom injury for a couple weeks has already shown us how deficient we are. If we don't add one midfielder it's going to be a very long season.

 

[Rustyspider13]

I think Ole's got his sights set on Rice and will wait another year to get him (like Sancho) even if it's to the detriment of this season. I just hope we try for a CM in January if we're anywhere near the title.

 

[hungrywing]

I keep saying this since Sancho signed, we should have sold Pogba for any decent money and buy a proper midfielder.
Now we have about 7 players (Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho, Martial) for 4 positions, PLUS Pogba who can't play in midfield two. It's nice to have him as an LW/LM/AM option but we are already pretty stocked in that position.

I can't take seriously people who think we can play Ronaldo without an industrial midfield behind. Check in how many defensive actions our forwards are involved.

McFred is the least of our problems, and even they aren't good enough on individual level.

As in our forwards are forced to do more defensive work than average? Or that they're way below average?

 

[altodevil]

There must be some DM we can loan in - for depth more than anything

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

Fergie used to play defenders in midfield on a regular basis e.g. Phil Neville, Jones etc

If our tactical structure is solid enough then you can pick a non-specialist to play in that area of the pitch. The problem with us is that our structure/system is fundamentally weak

 

[sullydnl]

As it stands he'll have to hodge something together with what he has, likely relying on the McFred pairing that tbf saw us finish 2nd last year.

I don't like it but all teams have weaknesses. As a supposedly top class manager (given he's managing Manchester United) and someone who has had several transfers windows to build the team to this point, it's on Ole and his coaching team to make it function to a serviceable level.

 

[midou]

He's going to do a circa Fergie 2012/13; hope we can get away with it by having world class defenders and forwards. Going to be a fun season

The midfield that season was about 10 times better, Carrick started 40+ games. The current batch of Matic and McFred don't make 1 Carrick put together.

 

[Mr Smith]

The midfield that season was about 10 times better, Carrick started 40+ games. The current batch of Matic and McFred don't make 1 Carrick put together.

I think you will find Pogba will be back in midfield in all but the big games this season. I can almost guarantee against Newcastle next week:

--------Pogba----------Fred/Scott------

Greenwood-----Bruno-----Sancho

---------------------Ronaldo------------------

Be prepared for absolute chaos

 

[the_answer]

Sir Alex won the league without a midfield. Klopp won it with the likes of milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum.

Id argue Wijnaldum would turn us into a potential league winning side (and some better coaching from Ole).

 

[Adnan]

Taking Bruno from the 10/SS long term is a sackable offence imo. 4-3-3 just doesn't suit the players we have and we should forget about it. Why do people want 4-3-3 anyway?

It will be McTominay and Fred as first choice with hopefully the introduction of DVB.

Because a 4-3-3 along with a 3-4-3 opens up triangles/rondos which helps a team's build up phase. The Dutch used the formation(s) for many years for those reasons.

And with the players that have been signed, we need to see a cohesive attacking plan starting from deeper with connectivity. And if Bruno is allowed to just free roam without providing a vertical pass option by dropping deeper, then that will be a sackable offence too because it will mean the midfielders will have to take unnecessary risks with their passing.

 

[Rozay]

One thing about us is we know the players we want and don’t switch targets easily. To me, we will largely manage what we have until the opportunity to sign Declan Rice arises. It’s clear that he’s the one we want.

 

[Brightonian]

Once again, the whole idea of 'McFred' obstructs any serious analysis of what's actually happening in our midfield. Sometimes it warps how we see Fred's contribution, sometimes McTominay's.

So far this season, McT has played one game, in which he was a dominant force in the midfield, one of the better players on the pitch, earned rave reviews on here, and we won 5-1. He hasn't played again since then.

But 'McFred isn't good enough, we'll never win anything with McFred'.

They're two different players.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

McFred

Especially with Ronaldo up front, who won't contribute much out of possession compared to Cavani or Greenwood, so no way we get away with Pogba in a midfield 2.

 

[MadMike]

Sir Alex won the league without a midfield. Klopp won it with the likes of milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum. Come on. You don't need a world class midfield you need a manger who knows how to put the pieces together.

The midfield was Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum. Not sure why you put Milner ahead of Fabinho there.

That midfield was/is is very good workman-like midfield actually. Great for a high pressure, high energy game which is what Liverpool strived for. It was built for purposes and a significantly better midfield than Cleverley, Anderson, and 33yo Carrick that we played with in our last title win.

But yes, you can have all the pieces and if your manager doesn't know how to put them together then you'll fail time and again.

 

[laughtersassassin]

With the fact we have no DM I really think we are going to have to drop Bruno deeper and make it more of a 3 man Midfield.

An actual MIDFIELD of McT Bruno and Pogba can definitely work as long as Bruno isn't playing second striker.

It will be the best thing for the team I think

 

[CM]

@Skills nailed it.

After we bring in this midfielder, the next thing will be, 'we're a RB away', then it'll be a 'we're a sweeper keeper away'.

It's never-ending.

It still amazes me to this day that our fan-base downplays what a manager can do with a team.

I think Ole has done a decent/good job thus far, but now is the time to show if he can lead us to titles. There is no excuse for not challenging this season.

If we somehow did bring in a midfielder, I'd want the title.

This is a strawman.

Nobody in their right mind can look at that midfield and think it's remotely good enough to win a league title. Even if we signed a midfielder that is by no means a guarantee of winning the league when the competition is Chelsea and Man City - two very good teams in their own right. But it would take us a hell of a lot closer. 2nd is our ceiling with this midfield, and we risk going backwards as things stand.

 

[Abraxas]

These a few of the problems with 4-3-3 for us:
1) No DM
2) The best nr10/SS in World football would have to be sacrificed (sackable offence imo; something Arteta might do)
3) A Pogba that needs at Juve and France 2 mids to cover for him, making Bruno even more restricted
4) No attacking right back

The shape of 4-2-3-1 has no issues. Our problems have been poor quality in same areas and a lack of balance. We fixed improving 1on 1 defending at center back, right wing and major upgrade in CF. Better quality in mid to move the ball better and faster up front would be great but we could only do so much in one window.

I don't get this new found obsession with 4-3-3 for some United fans.

I agree, ever since that article came out suggesting Ole may try a 4-3-3 a number of fans have been obsessed with the idea.

It seems to be based on hopeful optimism rather than any kind of logic considering the line between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3 can be extremely narrow. Which is probably exactly why Ole considered it, it's not a large scale change. If Bruno drops in its already close to a 4-3-3, and yet we wouldn't expect miracles from this change, would we?

There are clearly personnel and balance issues, I don't think moving the deck chairs around a bit is going to have a spectacular effect yet every other post on our buildup or midfield composition and buildup seems to think this is a crucial factor.

 

[Loon]

I wonder if we actually had a CM in mind at all? Seems RW and CB were the priorities.