Are wingers essential?

[Shane88]

I'm looking at our midfield options; Pogba, Bruno, VDB, Matic, Fred, McTominay. Would it be worth trying a central-ish four of them behind a front two of Rashford/Martial/Greenwood/Ighalo?

Our right has been a barren wasteland for close to a decade now. It is not going to be fixed anytime soon with Bissaka and James being our options there. Our left isn't much better so why persist with trying fruitless wing play?

 

[Ecstatic]

No, if you are great offensive lateral defenders and midfielders who can support them.

 

[Lebo]

You can play without wingers if your fullbacks are brilliant attackers

 

[VorZakone]

Either play 3 at the back (Bailly - Smalling - Maguire) or a diamond formation with 4 midfielders: Matic, Pogba, Fernandes, Van de Beek. And Rashford/Martial can roam up front in central positions. Greenwood will get enough minutes both as a sub and starter.

 

[Varun]

You can play without wingers if your fullbacks are brilliant attackers

Pretty much this which rules us out.

 

[Invictus]

@Šjor Bepo

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

You can play without wingers if your fullbacks are brilliant attackers

Wings too.

 

[redom]

To echo what others have already said, wingers aren't necessary but I think width is, whether that comes from wingers/fullbacks/wide forwards. If the opposition know that you're not a threat from wide it allows them to stay very compact which makes defending a lot easier.

 

[Charlie Foley]

@Šjor Bepo

I love this video. Wish there were more like this

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

@Šjor Bepo

Must admit, I'm in love with this video ever since I saw it, the concept and the diamond in general. Think it will work for us?

Also a 3-5-2.

 

[Lee565]

It wouldn't be if we actually had good attacking fullback but that's on ole.

 

[VorZakone]

To echo what others have already said, wingers aren't necessary but I think width is, whether that comes from wingers/fullbacks/wide forwards. If the opposition know that you're not a threat from wide it allows them to stay very compact which makes defending a lot easier.

It's never that black-and-white. You'll always get opportunities generally. Hell, there have been plenty of games with wide players where Man Utd couldn't break down the defence.

You need to get the most out of your personnel and if it leans heavily towards central players, you need to optimize your formation for it. United currently has a good set of central players, both CM's and CB's.

 

[Amadaeus]

Reminds me of the good old days with Valencia running down the right wing and canon passing his crosses into the box to see which player he can kill hit. To answer the op question wingers aren’t and are essential depending on the tactics of the opposition. Holistically, I would prefer a fluid dynamic front line with inverted attackers, while the fullbacks becomes maurading wingers similar to the system pochettino modernized in the premier league.

 

[redom]

It's never that black-and-white. You'll always get opportunities generally. Hell, there have been plenty of games with wide players where Man Utd couldn't break down the defence.

You need to get the most out of your personnel and if it leans heavily towards central players, you need to optimize your formation for it. United currently has a good set of central players, both CM's and CB's.

I'm not saying you're guaranteed clean sheets if you have a compact defense but it makes almost all aspects of defending easier. You won't find many if any defensive tactics that purposely isolate and spread out players because it puts so much more emphasis on individual defensive ability and performance over collective which allows players to cover for each other, which they can do when compact.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

So OP is proposing diamond formation?

It could work.

Rash/Mart --- Greenwood
Bruno
Pogba --- VDB
Matic
Shaw --- Mag --- Lind --- AWB
DDG​

The problem is still our right wing.

Rashford or Martial will drift to the left wing to provide the left width with Shaw, and Pogba playing mezzala role, drifting at times to the wing. Need to give freedom to Pogba.

Greenwood and AWB will provide the right width.. quality of attacks is not consistent. VDB may also drift to RW, mezzala role.

When either one of the two striker drift to one wing, the other should be in the box. Pogba and VDB may switch their positions at times.

The plus side, we should have better control of midfield with more bodies there. Dealing with high pressure should be slightly easier.

Overall, it's a complex system, and honestly I'm not confident we can pull it off. We're seriously lacking in the football intelligence and tactical coaching departments to pull this off effectively making a good system out of it.

 

[arnie_ni]

@Šjor Bepo

This this this. 3 4 3 diamond in midfield.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

We don't need to change formation it isn't FIFA

 

[Bebestation]

The thing for me is that Ole plays the 4231 which is a tumescent formation that makes it hard to change shape & leaves wide players usually out too wide and deeper from the more creative players.

The 433 or as simple as it sounds allows us to play in so many different ways and usually the players can find these positions themselves.

Rashford-Martial-Greenwood
Pogba - Bruno
Matic
Shaw -Maguire - Bailly - AWB

​

Can easily revert to the 235 which is actually variants of what City & Liverpool play due to them playing 433.

Rashford- Greenwood
Martial
Pogba- Bruno
Shaw- Matic- AWB
Maguire - Bailly
​

Players like Matic are used to covering or dropping in to the CB to make a back 3 only when needed & making the back line wider and harder to penetrate. Martial is a link up support striker that needs inside forwards playing closer to him because he usually drops deep to get the ball before making a pass to Rashford or Greenwood to make a run in behind more centrally to make clinical finishes. Allowing Pogba to play more further up in a 433 alongside Bruno Fernandes with the covering of a player like Matic gives them the ability to dictate between them when the space opens up between them when they should turn from being CM to CAM and even CF in positioning or even wider.


When you look at the first 433 we have width from Rashford & Greenwood waiting to receive the ball and when we get it we initiate and attack and our team should turn narrower at that point in to team version 2 - the more defensive players are guarding the back depending on which angle we attacked on and allowing us to attack up on a 235 but defend in a 532 if needed.


Ole's use of the 4231 is holding back our width unnecessarily even if their talents are being argued before or after hand.

​

 

[dinostar77]

Ideally we would have a good left and right wingers in the squad. Firstly it would create competition for places. So players out of form wouldn't be starting i.e. rashford for past few months. Also wingers would allow us to use rashford and greenwood as alternatives to martial up front and rest them as well. Its obvious Rashford isnt right physically since his back injury.

I agree that if you have fantastic attacking fullbacks ahem...TTA and Robertson for example then you dont need orthodox wingers. As the fullbacks provide the width and crosses. We dont have good attacking fullbacks. We have an excellent defensive fullback in AWB which would suggest we should go for an extremely attacking LB, as traditionally one FB goes forward while other stays back most of the time.

I haven't given up on Daniel James, the lad needs a season out on loan, starting regularly to build up his confidence.

It wont happen, but it would be good if we could bring in two wingers on loan if Sancho doesnt happen.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

It's basically using at much of the pitch as possible to create as many scoring opportunities as possible.

There are different ways to create width as other posters have mentioned.

 

[golden_blunder]

Personally I’d love us to keep it simple, 4-4-2 with 2 proper wingers stretching the pitch, 1 proper out and out striker and 1 slightly withdrawn in the number 10.
Leicester won the league by keeping it simple.
we need to stop over thinking things and trying to plug circles into square holes.
let’s try and dominate our own league again before we start worrying about Europe and setting up for that

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Personally I’d love us to keep it simple, 4-4-2 with 2 proper wingers stretching the pitch, 1 proper out and out striker and 1 slightly withdrawn in the number 10.
Leicester won the league by keeping it simple.
we need to stop over thinking things and trying to plug circles into square holes.
let’s try and dominate our own league again before we start worrying about Europe and setting up for that

This.

 

[golden_blunder]

This.

1st member of my new 442 club. Congratulations!

 

[11101]

Wingers are not essential but width is. Just as a defending team tries to keep the pitch compact, an attacking team should be trying to stretch it. You can't do that without players who will hug the touchline and keep opposing fullbacks apart from their centre backs.

 

[#07]

You can play without wingers if your fullbacks are brilliant attackers

Bingo. Close thread. Argument done.

The issue for United isn't that we don't have wingers, its that we don't have width. Just look at the service Liverpool get from Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. Look at what Barcelona used to get from Dani Alves or Jordi Alba. You can play with narrow attackers, inside forwards, whatever you wanna do in the middle, if you have width.

 

[Foxbatt]

If only we could get someone close to this? So clear and easy to understand. Man was a genius.

 

[bond19821982]

Personally I’d love us to keep it simple, 4-4-2 with 2 proper wingers stretching the pitch, 1 proper out and out striker and 1 slightly withdrawn in the number 10.
Leicester won the league by keeping it simple.
we need to stop over thinking things and trying to plug circles into square holes.
let’s try and dominate our own league again before we start worrying about Europe and setting up for that

We don't have traditional wingers these days though. Even, if we are going to buy it, who exactly is thats available?

Also, we need a proper classic CF to play that roles.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

What is important and will become fundamental (to be one of the best teams in the world) is having players that can operate in different positions/roles in the build up and in the final third.

Your wide forwards and fullbacks can operate as wingers, either thorugh crossing, dribbling etc. Your fullbacks can go central if the forwards stays wide and the midfielder makes a forward run...

 

[romufc]

What is important and will become fundamental (to be one of the best teams in the world) is having players that can operate in different positions/roles in the build up and in the final third.

Your wide forwards and fullbacks can operate as wingers, either thorugh crossing, dribbling etc. Your fullbacks can go central if the forwards stays wide and the midfielder makes a forward run...

Exactly. It all comes down to coaching.

If AWB is not good in attack, why not say to him to stay central and stop the counter, that allows Pogba and Bruno to push higher up.

There is always a way to get the best out of the players you have on the pitch.

Ole is failing to do that.

Greenwood is not a winger so that option does not work with Greenwood and AWB.

 

[pacifictheme]

Using the width of the pitch effectively is key. As someone said you don't need wingers if your full backs can attack but playing narrow is a recipe for disaster.

 

[gerdm07]

I would try Pogba at RW. He is our best player at beating players on the dribble and some days, like Saturday, he doesn't have the concentration to be a good holding midfielder. This also allows us to play our best in-form players.

................Greenwood
.......Martial....VDB........Pogba
.............Fred......Bruno
Shaw...Maguire...Lindelof...AWB


It's time to drop Rashford for a few matches.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Exactly. It all comes down to coaching.

If AWB is not good in attack, why not say to him to stay central and stop the counter, that allows Pogba and Bruno to push higher up.

There is always a way to get the best out of the players you have on the pitch.

Ole is failing to do that.

Greenwood is not a winger so that option does not work with Greenwood and AWB.

The idea behind having players operating in different roles is that they have the abilities to do so. Greenwood can stay wide and cross if needed, and he got the technical ability to drop deep and help in the buildup. He lacks some coaching, experience etc, but he got the abilities to be able to play as a winger in some situations, or dropping deep to recycle the ball.

AWB does not. He cannot cross, pass or find a good pass. So if the aim is to dominate the game and break down a parked bus, AWB is not really suited to this.

For some of our players, this is down to coaching and lack of a discernable system, but for others, this is down to lack of abilities.

 

[golden_blunder]

We don't have traditional wingers these days though. Even, if we are going to buy it, who exactly is thats available?

Also, we need a proper classic CF to play that roles.

Sancho RW, James LW
Martial & greenwood up top

would do until we can upgrade