Argentina National Team | general thread

Also I think Messi would handle being benched much better than Ronaldo as well.

That’s the problem we have, Santos knows it well.

I dunno about that, even if he'll managed better, I still think he'll retire from the NT before being regularly on the bench to avoid problems. That's more likely since Messi is notorious for not managing well being benched. The thing also it's that small injuries aside, he still is performing at a great level and the team knows how to operate around him.
 
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They're not above going through massive lulls like this. Reminds me of the post-Ronaldo/Rivaldo/Ronaldinho, pre-Neymar team that would rock up to tournaments with dossers like Fred (not our one) and Jo (Everton legend) as the main strikers.

Their midfield and forward options for the 2010 World Cup were Felipe Melo, Michel Bastos, Julio Baptista, Kaka (Real Madrid version), Gilberto Silva (past it and playing in the Greek league), Luis Fabiano, Nilmar, Robinho, Gilberto Melo, Ramires, Elano, Josue, Grafite and Kleberson (8 years after his glory days).

Exactly it's a question of having a team playing as such. Argentina and Brasil have beatan each other with lesser teams on paper than the rival, or without even entering such thing with the other one in way better form. This was done by just by at least more clever at the particular match, a quote of luck/timing or playing better as a team with the weapons at disposal.
 
Like their beef, it's all about quantity and not quality.

Brazil doesn't develop players for Brazil anymore, it's all about selling them on to foreign markets.

Some of their beef it's great, they have got quite a lot better in such regard in recent years.
 
Brazil might still have talent at top but they rarely seem to bring through midfielders who aren't hackers or grafters anymore. Guimarães might be the best they have and he's still on the grafty side, doesn't seem like they have someone that can keep play ticking over.
 
Also I think Messi would handle being benched much better than Ronaldo as well.

That’s the problem we have, Santos knows it well.
I don't think Martinez has the stones to do what Santos did, and he certainly doesn't have the bottle to excise Ronaldo from the squad altogether. So it's ride or die with CR7, it would seem.
 
Brazil might still have talent at top but they rarely seem to bring through midfielders who aren't hackers or grafters anymore. Guimarães might be the best they have and he's still on the grafty side, doesn't seem like they have someone that can keep play ticking over.

Bruno is great, being a grafter it's also a trademark of what coaches demand today to any midfielder, even offensive ones and he was severly missed, yet just 2 mids against Argentina it's like when Diego played a similar idea against Germany in 2010, worse in Diego's case because he made some odd choices in defense too. So if Bruno was going to be sent out there with just one pal, would also had problems
 
Brazil might still have talent at top but they rarely seem to bring through midfielders who aren't hackers or grafters anymore. Guimarães might be the best they have and he's still on the grafty side, doesn't seem like they have someone that can keep play ticking over.
Arthur Melo was such a huge disappointment. From starring on the biggest stage (UCL) for Barca to loving the good times too much….oh, what could (& should!) have been.
 
Brazil might still have talent at top but they rarely seem to bring through midfielders who aren't hackers or grafters anymore. Guimarães might be the best they have and he's still on the grafty side, doesn't seem like they have someone that can keep play ticking over.
I feel like their best modern teams usually just had water carriers or destroyers in midfield anyway. Dunno if they ever really had a Xavi or Pirlo.

The biggest drop off from their past teams to now has to be the fullbacks though, going from Carlos and Cafu to Marcelo and Alves to... I don't even know who the feck the fullbacks are that played last night.
 
So their beef is like their players, some decent cuts, but most of it is average at best.

Jokes aside, their beef got trully top notch with some cuts, even historically low budget ones like Picanha/Tapa de cuadril down here, have goten really good.
 
I feel like their best modern teams usually just had water carriers or destroyers in midfield anyway. Dunno if they ever really had a Xavi or Pirlo.

The biggest drop off from their past teams to now has to be the fullbacks though, going from Carlos and Cafu to Marcelo and Alves to... I don't even know who the feck the fullbacks are that played last night.

Even if they had a tradition of pulling great to extraordinary ones, mostly because their primary style needs them like water, replacing those names from such period would never be easy nor normal. Also Brazil has been using true wingers these last years that in other periods weren't that used because of those extraordinary fullbacks.

PD: what do you mean with EVER having a Xavi or Pirlo? of course they had lots of players in such roles in their history. Even if they preffered a more rock and roll approach many times.
 
I feel like their best modern teams usually just had water carriers or destroyers in midfield anyway. Dunno if they ever really had a Xavi or Pirlo.

The biggest drop off from their past teams to now has to be the fullbacks though, going from Carlos and Cafu to Marcelo and Alves to... I don't even know who the feck the fullbacks are that played last night.
Yeah that was key to Brazil's balance. If you have two unbelievable attacking full-backs then having two water carrier/grafters in midfield makes sense to cover for them. But if your full-backs do feck all in attack and are bang average, then it puts a greater onus on your midfielders to do something in creativity.
 
I feel like their best modern teams usually just had water carriers or destroyers in midfield anyway. Dunno if they ever really had a Xavi or Pirlo.

The biggest drop off from their past teams to now has to be the fullbacks though, going from Carlos and Cafu to Marcelo and Alves to... I don't even know who the feck the fullbacks are that played last night.
They had Alex Sandro and Danilo has well that were decent when younger, mostly Alex Sandro, now they have nothing.
 
I dunno about that, even if he'll managed better, I still think he'll retire from the NT before being regularly on the bench to avoid problems. That's more likely since Messi is notorious for not managing well being benched. The thing also it's that small injuries aside, he still is performing at a great level and the team knows how to operate around him.
Messi once said he'd rather be a sub coming from the bench to end games than be subbed out. With that being said, I still think Messi could potentially start at the 2026 WC.
 
PD: what do you mean with EVER having a Xavi or Pirlo? of course they had lots of players in such roles in their history. Even if they preffered a more rock and roll approach many times.
Talking about their modern teams (90s and onwards, anything previous is before my time).

Since then they've usually built around defensively solid players in midfield, rather than having any standout playmaker (Dunga and Mauro Silva, Kleberson and Gilberto Silva, Fernandinho and Luiz Gustavo, Casemiro and Paulinho).
 
Talking about their modern teams (90s and onwards, anything previous is before my time).

Since then they've usually built around defensively solid players in midfield, rather than having any standout playmaker (Dunga and Mauro Silva, Kleberson and Gilberto Silva, Fernandinho and Luiz Gustavo, Casemiro and Paulinho).

Sorry I've thougth you've implied ever, still, it isn't exactly that scenario either. It's not that much a question of tactics and players in some determinated role, it's more a question of strategy.

Brazil by tradition preffers to play on the break, to punish on the fly after recovering the ball and use even a lot of tactical fouls when defending to actually destroy the mindset of their rivals, to being punished as they could deliver dammage almost on every attack and later when the rival had the ball be stopped instantly on their tracks, this broke mentally lots of teams against them.

That being said, they had that 82 team more passing oriented and in 58 when they wanted they hold to the ball a lot, they'll do it. Yet that's not primarly their more used style.They more than anything will always live for and by the goal as their major trait.

The 94 team was indeed very much defensive oriented, yet Mauro Silva was a very skilled fella for a defensive minded player. The 90 team also prioritized Alemao and Dunga, above a Silas, more in the mould of what you are saying.

Yet since the 90's they've also used a lot of offensive midfielders, playmakers, mediapuntas mostly from the more dinamic type, that also had lots of goals in them, from Ronaldinho to Rivaldo or Kaka, to less dinamic, more traditional, organizative types like Alex, Silas, Rai, Marcelinho or Ganso to name some. Certainly all those names were playmakers, with different styles, atributes, yet offensive mids.

They also had historically players like Toninho Cerezo (a more launcher type), Falcao, that even not being their primary role to be a playmaker, had the tools to do it and influenced matches in such style.

Yet the main thing it's that they will still choose primarly to hammer, to punish inmediatly as they can, instead of sobing, keep the ball or try with lots of patience to find a gap. They would do that control, that keeping of the ball in their best periods, only sometimes when a difference was made in the match.

If they didn't had entirely the control of the match, having less possesion, their playmakers still would tend to be more direct, more assertive and risky than what normally a Rai, a Socrates, would do, yet even a Gerson in the early days easily would switch gears to a more direct approach after controlling the tempo of a match. When you have the type of forwards they have, you want to give every little advantage you can with some space, so they'll destroy you.
 
This Kit it's awesome, I hope they do not blow it in the WC, this vintage look it's great:

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They're not above going through massive lulls like this. Reminds me of the post-Ronaldo/Rivaldo/Ronaldinho, pre-Neymar team that would rock up to tournaments with dossers like Fred (not our one) and Jo (Everton legend) as the main strikers.

Their midfield and forward options for the 2010 World Cup were Felipe Melo, Michel Bastos, Julio Baptista, Kaka (Real Madrid version), Gilberto Silva (past it and playing in the Greek league), Luis Fabiano, Nilmar, Robinho, Gilberto Melo, Ramires, Elano, Josue, Grafite and Kleberson (8 years after his glory days).

2014 wasn't that great either, left out Coutinho for one of Big Phil's mates and some other odd selections.

In 2010 they were still very strong at full back area as Dani Alves wasn't getting much chance in that time as Maicon had just played a huge part in the Inter treble.

This is generational worse set of full back options I've ever seen from a Brazil side. Arana been a regular last 12 months at LB and he's not far off 30 and played about 20 games for Atalanta and Sevilla over three year period. Alex Sandro still around but getting on at 34.

Over on the other side I had high hopes for Yan Couto given he played a great part in Girona's remarkable season but seems he's faded from contention after going to Dortmund. Vanderson/Wesley are at least young options at RB to develop.

There is a reason why Brazil struggle to score more than one goal against any well organised defence and mediocre FBs and workmanlike central midfield are the big issues.
 
On a side note, how has the mighty Brazil fallen. If you look at their team compared to their past teams, it is shocking how the quality has dropped.
Literally chuckled when I saw Brazil's starting XI yesterday with 3 wingers Rodrygo, Vini, Raphinha... They had zero control in midfield due to their 424 formation. They need a better coach, perhaps a foreign hire from Portugal or Spain? 7 out of 10 Conmebol national team coaches are Argentinean which explains why Argentina are doing well, like Spain/Portugal/Germany etc the FA likely produces a lot of coaches such that even the youth teams in Argentina have competent coaches and higher standards than countries with weaker coaching pipelines.

Also it's possible Brazil were so bad they made Argentina look better than they actually were, thus Argentina needs to not get too carried away by this result.
 
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Literally chuckled when I saw Brazil's starting XI yesterday with 3 wingers Rodrygo, Vini, Raphinha... They had zero control in midfield due to their 424 formation. They need a better coach, perhaps a foreign hire from Portugal or Spain? 7 out of 10 Conmebol national team coaches are Argentinean which explains why Argentina are doing well, like Spain/Portugal/Germany etc the FA likely produces a lot of coaches such that even the youth teams in Argentina have competent coaches and higher standards than countries with weaker coaching pipelines.

Also it's possible Brazil were so bad they made Argentina look better than they actually were, thus Argentina needs to not get too carried away by this result.

It's always a classic, to beat them soundly would always be great and we will always respect them no matter what. Also classics have a tendecy to not few times do not respect current form.

If anything this Argie NT does not get carried away with Scaloni at charge, the perfomance was really good no matter how bad Brazil was and we also made them look worse than these players can provide.

If we at some get carried away and not entirely focus might be because of how things are since more or less four years or even more, not because we have won this last match, same thing that happened in the Saudi game where we got caught taking a after a very positive streak. .