Arsenal 22/23 - go to new thread

[oneniltothearsenal]

And here lies the problem

The problem is you have more posts in this thread than any other poster and many of your posts contribute nothing to the thread accusing other posters of being WUMs when your posts do just as much wumming, laughing because you imagine yourself getting under someone else's skin and making exaggerated and made up accusations of posters in this thread that never happened.

I don’t think it’s Arsenal fans per se. Just people tend not to really like those who come to the Caf to gloat and give it the big one when their team is doing well (whilst also trying to stick the boot in to United).

The same folk that tend not to be here when their clubs are struggling (or United are winning).

It’s a bit sad really. That said there’s a few decent posters and they stand out as being genuine. They present some interesting viewpoints that you don’t always get from within the same fanbase.

The same can be said for you who has more posts in an opposition teams thread than any Arsenal fan. To be blunt, your posts don't come off as genuine so you aren't really the one to be gatekeeping here.

 

[NicolaSacco]

I think it’s more about common decency no?

If you came on here as an Ipswich fan to act like a twat then I’d fully expect you to get binned off. Banter is one thing but when all you offer is baiting and wind up posts to the host club then I don’t see what value you have being here. Agreed?

Clearly I’ve no argument with the idea of common decency, that should be a given, from all fans. I did t actually think the Arsenal fan involved was going out of his way to bait you though. But to be clear it’s not like I’ve read everything they posted. Maybe he’s an absolute shitgoblin, I’m which case you might be right!

 

[Loon]

The problem is you have more posts in this thread than any other poster and many of your posts contribute nothing to the thread accusing other posters of being WUMs when your posts do just as much wumming, laughing because you imagine yourself getting under someone else's skin and making exaggerated and made up accusations of posters in this thread that never happened.



The same can be said for you who has more posts in an opposition teams thread than any Arsenal fan. To be blunt, your posts don't come off as genuine so you aren't really the one to be gatekeeping here.

I’m not siding with anyone here, but would you say certain posts from Arsenal fans in this thread might be considered wums and not genuine?

 

[WeePat]

How does it stand up to well to past years when a City failing to match their performances of the past are the only competition? Liverpool have imploded, Chelsea and United in flux. Nobody is pushing Arsenal.

Most title races only have two teams in it. It’s not often you get 3 teams involved in the race beyond February/March. The year Liverpool won the title, City finished 2nd but like 20 points behind. Nobody challenged them either yet I haven’t seen anybody accuse them of doing a Leicester (granted, I know the context is different, Liverpool challenged over multiple seasons and won the CL) but still in that season, they had no challengers. When Chelsea won it in 2017, we won it by 13 points. All the usual big teams (City, Liverpool, United and Arsenal) were floundering 20-30 points behind. I think any team that wins the title with more than 90 points managed to win it by being dominant and if Arsenal do it, they will take their place as a dominant title winner and they will deserve the plaudits that come it.

 

[Loon]

Most title races only have two teams in it. It’s not often you get 3 teams involved in the race beyond February/March. The year Liverpool won the title, City finished 2nd but like 20 points behind. Nobody challenged them either yet I haven’t seen anybody accuse them of doing a Leicester (granted, I know the context is different, Liverpool challenged over multiple seasons and won the CL) but still in that season, they had no challengers. When Chelsea won it in 2017, we won it by 13 points. All the usual big teams (City, Liverpool, United and Arsenal) were floundering 20-30 points behind. I think any team that wins the title with more than 90 points managed to win it by being dominant and if Arsenal do it, they will take their place as a dominant title winner and they will deserve the plaudits that come it.

Absolutely. Just as Leicester deserved it and “the weakest side in United history” deserved it.

You seem to have fixated on my use of Leicester, which in hindsight is perhaps dingenuous, but my focus was: Does Arteta become a world class manager if he does it?

 

[AndersB]

Yes, a necessary one. Only way to progress the club and return to what we were before, financially and otherwise. It would be ok as long as we consistently remain in CL moving forward. But surely at some point, the board can't continue with the spending they have in the last few years once the squad has been established.



Mental gymnastics is the only form of exercise i get these days.

Haha, good one

Another thing I'll give Arteta is that he's managed to build a squad that doesn't seem to have a single prima donna right now. The only one I could see becoming one in the current 11 is Martinelli, but even that is a stretch. Also handled the Xhaka situation well.

 

[WeePat]

Absolutely. Just as Leicester deserved it and “the weakest side in United history” deserved it.

You seem to have fixated on my use of Leicester, which in hindsight is perhaps ingenuous, but my focus was: Does Arteta become a world class manager if he does it?

I mean yes, I was specifically objecting to the Leicester bit. I don’t think it’s fair to say Arsenal are just taking advantage of weakened big clubs. But yes, Arteta has put together a brilliant season and is for me the runaway the manager of the season. Needs to do it for more than a season to earn his place among the world class coaches in the world.

 

[Buxton]

You didn’t answer so I’m assuming you think Casemiro and Shaw are United’s two best players? 31 and 27 (not that 27 is old really).

I’m not really sure age is something you can be critical of as on the whole the squad is quite balanced. Again though, Ten Hag has only had one window (not 6) so I’m sure he’ll shape the squad as time passes. We also have some good young players like Garnacho, Amad, Antony, Sancho, Pellistri who are in and around the first team and should continue to progress.

One thing Ten Hag is particularly good at is working with and developing young players. This is why he was a good fit with United given the clubs ethos.

Yes it’s clearly Casimero and Rashford . We have Partey and Xhaka as you said but we are not still building for a title challenge, we are there now .

 

[Loon]

I mean yes, I was specifically objecting to the Leicester bit. I don’t think it’s fair to say Arsenal are just taking advantage of weakened big clubs. But yes, Arteta has put together a brilliant season and is for me the runaway winner of the manager of the season. Needs to do it for more than a season to earn his place among the world class coaches in the world.

I’d agree with that. If Arsenal win it, they totally deserve it. That is true of every club.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I’m not siding with anyone here, but would you say certain posts from Arsenal fans in this thread might be considered wums and not genuine?

Earlier in the thread, yes. But since the EL loss there has been a massive amount of baiting, wumming, and either intentionally or unintentionally completely misrepresenting other people's posts (or just flat-out ascribing views that no one in this thread posted) from the poster I mentioned, which, combined with the abrasive self-appointed gatekeeping makes me doubt the intention of having a good faith discussion. I don't think any Arsenal fan in the last week has been arguing in such bad faith.

 

[Loon]

Earlier in the thread, yes. But since the EL loss there has been a massive amount of baiting, wumming, and either intentionally or unintentionally completely misrepresenting other people's posts (or just flat-out ascribing views that no one in this thread posted) from the poster I mentioned, which, combined with the abrasive self-appointed gatekeeping makes me doubt the intention of having a good faith discussion. I don't think any Arsenal fan in the last week has been arguing in such bad faith.

Perhaps not bad faith, but I can certainly see some posters employing certain “tactics” in the guise of discussion we say?

 

[Daydreamer]

How does it stand up to well to past years when a City failing to match their performances of the past are the only competition? Liverpool have imploded, Chelsea and United in flux. Nobody is pushing Arsenal.

Would you say Arteta is world class if he wins the league this season? Would you say it about Potter? I certainly wouldn’t say it about Ten Hag.

ADDITIONALLY: It was laughable that United were considered to be in the title race at one point.

I would have thought that it stands up well because 28 games in Arsenal have a points total that would have them at or near the top of the league in every season ever played.

 

[Loon]

I would have thought that it stands up well because 28 games in Arsenal have a points total that would have them at or near the top of the league in every season ever played.

Near the top. I’m glad you included that.

 

[Daydreamer]

Perhaps not bad faith, but I can certainly see some posters employing certain “tactics” in the guise of discussion we say?

One poster aside, I've found the discussion to be relatively good faith from supporters of all clubs in this thread. Speaking only for myself, the comparisons with ETH are not to downplay his achievements at all. I think he's done an amazing job. I just don't think it's logical to criticise Arteta for not competing on four fronts and then point to someone who is 19 points behind in the league as someone who is doing so.

No team has gone deep in every competition this year - even City went out of the League Cup early - and they win it every year.

 

[Daydreamer]

Near the top. I’m glad you included that.

Yep. I though that is what we were discussing? For context, though, it would be at the very top in the vast majority of seasons. 69 points after 28 games puts you on track to win the league in pretty much any season.

 

[Loon]

One poster aside, I've found the discussion to be relatively good faith from supporters of all clubs in this thread. Speaking only for my self, the comparisons with ETH are not to downplay his achievements at all. I think he's done an amazing job. I just don't think it's logical to criticise Arteta for not competing on four fronts and then point to someone who is 19 points behind in the league as someone who is doing so.

No one team had gone deep in every competition this year - even City went out of the League Cup early - and they win it every year.

I would say there’s a couple of folks from both sides who like to mix it, but we all see things from our blinkered perspective.

Personally, I don’t think United will win another trophy this season, but I am happy with top four and one and Arsenal HAVE to go for the league. It’s right there for the taking.

Personal feelings about Arteta aside, he has done a great job and I would ABSOLUTELY trade the three potential cups for a league title (if only to keep the dippers at bay )

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Saka and Odegaard grew better throughout the season. Saka was looking a little off at the start. Jesus came in and impacted the squad straight away hence why we labelled him our best player. Him coming back, I hope he is a menace. He reminds me of prime Alexis Sanchez at Arsenal, but without the appetitie for goal.

He’s not your best player though whatever you labelled him. If I want you to lose the title I’d prefer Saka being out rather than Jesus. But I think it’s much better you win the league than cheats

 

[Loon]

Yep. I though that is what we were discussing? For context, though, it would be at the very top in the vast majority of seasons. 69 points after 28 games puts you on track to win the league in pretty much any season.

I wasn’t really. I was discussing Arteta’s reputation based on a single title. As you can see in my reply to Wee Pat, it strayed a little!

 

[Daydreamer]

I would say there’s a couple of folks from both sides who like to mix it, but we all see things from our blinkered perspective.

Personally, I don’t think United will win another trophy this season, but I am happy with top four and one and Arsenal HAVE to go for the league. It’s right there for the taking.

Personal feelings about Arteta aside, he has done a great job and I would ABSOLUTELY trade the three potential cups for a league title (if only to keep the dippers at bay )

Yep, every fanbase has it's WUMs. Ironically, one of "ours" chose the name 'GoonerInPeace'. They seem to wake up and choose violence for the most part.

I also would love to see United return to their best. Our recent game was the most-watched in US history. It felt like a throw back to a true rivalry from clubs with self-generated resources (in fact, United go beyond self-sustaining as your owners who leech off of you). That game really meant something for the first time in years and I would love more of it.

 

[Daydreamer]

I wasn’t really. I was discussing Arteta’s reputation based on a single title. As you can see in my reply to Wee Pat, it strayed a little!

Fair enough, I got the wrong end of the stick.

I'm not sure what I'd classify Arteta as if we won. I don't think I'd care all that much. He would be the youngest ever PL Champion, though. I'd rank that win over Mourinho's PL win, seeing as he spent a boatload to take Chelsea up a single place.

To make 100% clear, I'm not comparing that hypothetical feat to Mourinho's CL win, the start of his career, or indeed his career as whole. I thought I'd get that in ahead of being misquoted.

 

[Loon]

Fair enough, I got the wrong end of the stick.

I'm not sure what I'd classify Arteta as if we won. I don't think I'd care all that much. He would be the youngest ever PL Champion, though. I'd rank that win over Mourinho's PL win, seeing as he spent a boatload to take Chelsea up a single place.

To make 100% clear, I'm not comparing that hypothetical feat to Mourinho's CL win, the start of his career, or indeed his career as whole. I thought I'd get that in ahead of being misquoted.

wise!

 

[acnumber9]

Expectations are certainly different as United are one of the biggest clubs in the world, but then so are the resources

Indeed.
https://talksport.com/football/1163867/arsenal-mikel-arteta-transfer-window-gabriel-jesus/amp/

 

[Lincm]

Absolutely. Just as Leicester deserved it and “the weakest side in United history” deserved it.

You seem to have fixated on my use of Leicester, which in hindsight is perhaps dingenuous, but my focus was: Does Arteta become a world class manager if he does it?

No he doesn't. He just becomes the youngest manager to ever win this league.
I don't think he can claim to be world class unless he's consistently challenging for a few years, and not just for the league, but the cups and in europe.
"World class" should be kept very very far away for now. And Arsenal haven't even won it this year yet.

 

[acnumber9]

Yes it’s clearly Casimero and Rashford . We have Partey and Xhaka as you said but we are not still building for a title challenge, we are there now .

Well no wonder there’s confusion. Rashford is 25. You don’t make yourself seem more reasonable when you make things up.

 

[Daydreamer]

Indeed.
https://talksport.com/football/1163867/arsenal-mikel-arteta-transfer-window-gabriel-jesus/amp/

Yep, indeed...
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/man...hag-defends-record-220-million-transfer-spend

 

[acnumber9]

Yep, indeed...
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/man...hag-defends-record-220-million-transfer-spend

Per Transfermarkt, a whopping €25m more than Arsenal over the last two seasons. Given Arsenal were willing to spunk more on Mudryk while United were shopping for Burnley strikers, I don’t think the difference in resources available are all that is being suggested. And of course much of that has feck all to do with Ten Hag. I don’t think we’ll be finishing 8th under Ten Hag anytime soon.

 

[awop]

Per Transfermarkt, a whopping €25m more than Arsenal over the last two seasons. And of course much of that has feck all to do with Ten Hag. I don’t think we’ll be finishing 8th under Ten Hag anytime soon.

I don't think you should dabble with numbers above 9, they seem to confuse you

 

[acnumber9]

I don't think you should dabble with numbers above 9, they seem to confuse you

If you say so. Arsenal fans aren’t too fond of facts it seems.

 

[Daydreamer]

Per Transfermarkt, a whopping €25m more than Arsenal over the last two seasons. Given Arsenal were willing to spunk more on Mudryk while United were shopping for Burnley strikers, I don’t think the difference in resources available are all that is being suggested. And of course much of that has feck all to do with Ten Hag. I don’t think we’ll be finishing 8th under Ten Hag anytime soon.

The point being made was United have higher expectations in line with their higher revenue and spending. Which is true by almost any metric available.

It's also not a diss. I don't know why you would get touchy about Arsenal fans saying United generate - and thus spend - more money than Arsenal. It's a good thing for you, surely?

 

[acnumber9]

The point being made was United have higher expectations in line with their higher revenue and spending. Which is true by almost any metric available.

It's also not a diss. I don't know why you would get touchy about Arsenal fans saying United generate - and thus spend - more money than Arsenal. It's a good thing for you, surely?

You know it’s not being used to portray a good thing. I think Arsenal fans want to downplay the investment made in their squad. They’ve been spending in line with everybody else the last couple of seasons.

United spent so much last summer because it was taken from this summers budget. That’s why we were signing Weghorst while Arsenal chased Mudryk. The implication here is that Arsenal are working wonders relative to their budget. I would disagree.

 

[Daydreamer]

You know it’s not being used to portray a good thing. I think Arsenal fans want to downplay the investment made in their squad. They’ve been spending in line with everybody else the last couple of seasons.

United spent so much last summer because it was taken from this summers budget. That’s why we were signing Weghorst while Arsenal chased Mudryk. The implication here is that Arsenal are working wonders relative to their budget. I would disagree.

We're discussing facts here. How much Arsenal spent to assemble their squad is public knowledge. The same is the case for United. One number is a lot lower than the other. You can draw whatever conclusions from that as you wish. My opinion is that Arsenal are making pretty good use of their resources and I think the numbers back that up.

United spent a lot in the summer. They spend a lot most summers. They've spent more than pretty much anyone else - until Chelsea went on their rampage. But seeing as United spend money that the club generates, I don't see the spending itself as a problem. How effectively the money has been spent, is a different matter.

 

[TheReligion]

The problem is you have more posts in this thread than any other poster and many of your posts contribute nothing to the thread accusing other posters of being WUMs when your posts do just as much wumming, laughing because you imagine yourself getting under someone else's skin and making exaggerated and made up accusations of posters in this thread that never happened.



The same can be said for you who has more posts in an opposition teams thread than any Arsenal fan. To be blunt, your posts don't come off as genuine so you aren't really the one to be gatekeeping here.

Cool story. You went to way too much effort though all the same.

 

[TheReligion]

Yes it’s clearly Casimero and Rashford . We have Partey and Xhaka as you said but we are not still building for a title challenge, we are there now .

Rashford is 25

 

[TheReligion]

The point being made was United have higher expectations in line with their higher revenue and spending. Which is true by almost any metric available.

It's also not a diss. I don't know why you would get touchy about Arsenal fans saying United generate - and thus spend - more money than Arsenal. It's a good thing for you, surely?

United are a bigger club than Arsenal yes. The expectations are much higher.

It’s not all to do with money.

 

[TheReligion]

Clearly I’ve no argument with the idea of common decency, that should be a given, from all fans. I did t actually think the Arsenal fan involved was going out of his way to bait you though. But to be clear it’s not like I’ve read everything they posted. Maybe he’s an absolute shitgoblin, I’m which case you might be right!

They are all shitgoblins it’s just a case of ranking them best to worst

 

[Bilbo]

Does Arteta become a world class manager if he does it?

Not yet, for me. Sometimes managers can stumble across a formula that just works. I'm not saying that's the case here, this Arsenal team have clearly been built in layers and over time.

For me though a world class manager has to have done something more than once. They have to adapt to changing competition and setbacks and all manor of other things before being elevated that high. I would personally argue that Ten Hag has been just as impressive this season, albeit in different ways. He isn't world class yet either

 

[GoonerBear]

You know it’s not being used to portray a good thing. I think Arsenal fans want to downplay the investment made in their squad. They’ve been spending in line with everybody else the last couple of seasons.

United spent so much last summer because it was taken from this summers budget. That’s why we were signing Weghorst while Arsenal chased Mudryk. The implication here is that Arsenal are working wonders relative to their budget. I would disagree.

Not having much to spend in January doesn't mean you wouldn't have much to spend in the summer though.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

The difference being I’m a United fan posting on a United forum.

If I was a guest elsewhere then I’d be respectful of the host clubs fans. Especially if I was posting there for genuine reasons.

I’m not really sure why some struggle with this. Then again I don’t post on other forums so not sure what the thought process is with those that do.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that there are two sets of rules and certain rules apply to opposition fans that don't apply to you. Redcafe is the best football forum because the staff puts in a lot of volunteer work curating the forum so it has quality posters from all over the world and multiple clubs that all adhere to the general rules of decency and good faith discussions. Your posts in this thread, (the Arsenal thread in the football forum not a United thread on the United forum), at least since Thursday, have been more baiting, wumming, indirect and direct insults of other posters than every Arsenal fan in this thread put together. It is revealing to see you admit that you don't feel you have to argue in good faith but you expect others to somehow be respectful to you no matter what.

 

[Sweet Square]

I'm not sure what I'd classify Arteta as if we won. I don't think I'd care all that much. He would be the youngest ever PL Champion, though. I'd rank that win over Mourinho's PL win, seeing as he spent a boatload to take Chelsea up a single place.

Isn’t the different here something like 1 year ? Mourinho won it at 42 and Arteta will be 41 by the end next of the week.

 

[Daydreamer]

Isn’t the different here something like 1 year ? Mourinho won it at 42 and Arteta will be 41 by the next of the week. Interesting stat for a pub quiz but hardly something to care about.

I mentioned Mourinho because he’s the currently the Manager who won the league at the youngest age. If someone has a chance to break a record, it’s fairly common to draw comparisons with the current record holder.

I don’t particularly care about the one year difference, which is why I didn’t bring it up - you did.

The funny thing is I went out of my way to not be misquoted.