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Arsenal 2023/24 - Need to beat Everton plus City to drop points

Daydreamer

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In isolation you would take a 0-0. However, in the circumstances and the nature of it being a 3 horse race, Arsenal may well regret their approach to the game. They chose to merely sit in, just like what we do away against the top sides. The only difference is that they are a better side than us and therefore restricted City to very few chances. A point doesn't turn the needle and it now leaves them relying on Liverpool slipping up. They simply decided not to take the initiative. I highly doubt that Klopp's Liverpool would have played that match with such little ambition.
Klopp's Liverpool have never taken three points away from the Etihad against Pep's City.
 

Remember the geese

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Klopp's Liverpool have never taken three points away from the Etihad against Pep's City.
Yet I have never seen them park the bus against them. Remains to be seen, but I will be surprised if that point proves to be enough. It's very odd that Arsenal seemed to be perfectly content with a point from the outset.
 

tomaldinho1

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I think it's their season, for sure. City are spluttering along, lacking inspiration (four on the bounce is tough.... ); Liverpool are doing great but I wonder whether their injuries and lack of top, top forward (aside from Salah) may cost them. If Arsenal don't nab it this season, not sure when they will.
I know he's a bit of a meme on here but Nunez is having an excellent season, 10 goals, 7 assists and then their other forwards always chip in.

City and Pool both carry one truly elite goal scorer in Salah and Haaland but is it to their detriment (particularly City)? Arsenal spread the goals a lot more through the midfield, they only have 1 player in double digits for goals (Saka) but yet have scored more than City and Pool.
 

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In isolation you would take a 0-0. However, in the circumstances and the nature of it being a 3 horse race, Arsenal may well regret their approach to the game. They chose to merely sit in, just like what we do away against the top sides. The only difference is that they are a better side than us and therefore restricted City to very few chances. A point doesn't turn the needle and it now leaves them relying on Liverpool slipping up. They simply decided not to take the initiative. I highly doubt that Klopp's Liverpool would have played that match with such little ambition.
Klopp has won 3 league titles in 16 years. A very poor United side just dumped him out of the FA Cup. In the Premier League he’s got a losing record against Pep. Their last 5 matches are PEP-PEP-D-D-D. Odd to use him as a yardstick, he gets it wrong more than right.

I’ll accept that the more recent Liverpool-City games have seen more entertainment. But he’s not beaten him for 2 years.

All well and good giving yourself more chances to win (they should have won the game in March admittedly). But it’s hardly paying off for the fella.
 

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Klopp has won 3 league titles in 16 years. A very poor United side just dumped him out of the FA Cup. In the Premier League he’s got a losing record against Pep. Their last 5 matches are PEP-PEP-D-D-D. Odd to use him as a yardstick, he gets it wrong more than right.

I’ll accept that the more recent Liverpool-City games have seen more entertainment. But he’s not beaten him for 2 years.

All well and good giving yourself more chances to win (they should have won the game in March admittedly). But it’s hardly paying off for the fella.
The reason I used Klopp's Liverpool as a yardstick is because I don't think they would have approached this match in the same way. If Arsenal honestly believed that a point at City was good enough, then by all means, park the bus and do what they did. It is my opinion that a point wasn't good enough and that they should have shown more ambition to win the game.
 

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Yet I have never seen them park the bus against them. Remains to be seen, but I will be surprised if that point proves to be enough. It's very odd that Arsenal seemed to be perfectly content with a point from the outset.
The point that you’re saying we were content with (we were trying to win, btw) is the most Klopp has ever taken away from the Etihad facing Pep.

If his approach has never been successful, why is it relevant?
 

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The point that you’re saying we were content with (we were trying to win, btw) is the most Klopp has ever taken away from the Etihad facing Pep.

If his approach has never been successful, why is it relevant?
I didn't see a lot of evidence that you were trying to win and that is the problem. If the opportunity presented itself then sure, it would be rude not to, but this was not a normal Arsenal approach to winning a football match.

It is my belief that under Klopp, Liverpool usually attempt to go toe to toe with City. If you think Arsenal were more likely to win the match by taking the approach they did, then that's fine. I just don't agree.
 

Changeisgood

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Not sure City wanted to go toe to toe either with us. They didn't play with a whole lot of gumption...it was safety first from their perspective too. This is what our matches with City look like now.

The draw kinda works for both but especially us considering who and where we were playing. If I was Pep I'd be a little concerned with the table as it is. Both Pool and Arsenal are capable of going on an 8 game run leaving them virtually out of wiggle room. Difference between now and last year for them is they have two teams to overtake. This is usually the time of year they shine though. We will see if they pick up on their somewhat soso form.
 

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I didn't see a lot of evidence that you were trying to win and that is the problem. If the opportunity presented itself then sure, it would be rude not to, but this was not a normal Arsenal approach to winning a football match.

It is my belief that under Klopp, Liverpool usually attempt to go toe to toe with City.
If you think Arsenal were more likely to win the match by taking the approach they did, then that's fine. I just don't agree.
Of course it wasn't a normal Arsenal approach to winning a football match - we don't usually play the reigning Treble-winning champions in their home stadium where they've scored in each of their last 57 games.

We also had 2 shots on target to their 1 and it would of been more had our final ball been better.

You're absolutely correct that Klopp usually goes toe to toe with Pep... and it's never been successful, so I don't get what your point is. If Klopp's approach is so much more likely to win the match - why doesn't it?
 

ThierryHenry14

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Of course it wasn't a normal Arsenal approach to winning a football match - we don't usually play the reigning Treble-winning champions in their home stadium where they've scored in each of their last 57 games.

We also had 2 shots on target to their 1 and it would of been more had our final ball been better.

You're absolutely correct that Klopp usually goes toe to toe with Pep... and it's never been successful, so I don't get what your point is. If Klopp's approach is so much more likely to win the match - why doesn't it?
Arsenal couldn't keep the ball. City controlled the match. it is as simple as that. I don't think it surprise anyone given Arsenal's record in Eithad in the past 8 years.
 

Daydreamer

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Arsenal couldn't keep the ball. City controlled the match. it is as simple as that. I don't think it surprise anyone given Arsenal's record in Eithad in the past 8 years.
Our ball-retention was very poor, but City didn't really control the match. They created very little because they mainly had the ball in areas that posed very little danger. They were forced to play in way that they really didn't want to.

At least, that's not my personal definition of controlling a match.
 

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Yet I have never seen them park the bus against them. Remains to be seen, but I will be surprised if that point proves to be enough. It's very odd that Arsenal seemed to be perfectly content with a point from the outset.
TBF Liverpool also weren't in a situation where they've suffered the trauma of being absolutely smashed away by City 8 years on the trot (Including last season where Arsenal were imperious in the first half of the season). I'm not a fan of it but it's completely understandable that Arteta has taken the conservative approach here. Arsenal's team are still relatively young and only in the second year of challenging for major honours. They need to learn to walk before they can run when it comes to City and taking a point at their ground is a good start, I'm sure it's not the plan going forward to always take this kind of approach at City.
 

Changeisgood

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Our ball-retention was very poor, but City didn't really control the match. They created very little because they mainly had the ball in areas that posed very little danger. They were forced to play in way that they really didn't want to.

At least, that's not my personal definition of controlling a match.
City did their usual thing but it was really without any serious intent most of the time. The full backs were rarely chipping in. They were always plugging up the space in behind. Not a whole lot of intent at all in there.

You made a good point earlier too. There is a reason why they are the best club in the world at the moment coming off a treble, is that there is no great winning formula against them, and Klopp doesnt have one at the Etihad anymore than Arteta does apparently. There are no guarantees and especially not against City. They can punish you pretty quickly.
 

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The reason I used Klopp's Liverpool as a yardstick is because I don't think they would have approached this match in the same way. If Arsenal honestly believed that a point at City was good enough, then by all means, park the bus and do what they did. It is my opinion that a point wasn't good enough and that they should have shown more ambition to win the game.
But Arsenal have outscored Liverpool this year?

It’s really wild for you to think that top managers go into away matches with their direct rivals in the final third of the season and invite jeopardy. They don’t. It’s so rare to see a barnburner in a game like this.

Fair go if you think that a more front-foot Arsenal, against a team without their first choice keeper, centre back and right back. I agree with you.

But the fact remains that a loss would have left Arsenal with an impossible task and a close to zero chance of winning the league. Had they lost 3-2 and Liverpool also won, everyone would be ‘Ha ha Arteta’.

As it is, they had a good time against City at The Etihad and could have won. It’s so rare that anyone does that, and Klopp has hardly ever walked away from the ground feeling that way. His side have only scored 6 league goals there in 9 matches from a quick glance.

As I said, I do think that Arsenal could have gone there and won, had they exerted more pressure, but Arteta 100% made the right choice. Keep it tight, try and pinch one. It’s worked for Fergie, Jose, Conte, Ranieri, Wenger, and yes Klopp and Pep too.
 

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But Arsenal have outscored Liverpool this year?

It’s really wild for you to think that top managers go into away matches with their direct rivals in the final third of the season and invite jeopardy. They don’t. It’s so rare to see a barnburner in a game like this.

Fair go if you think that a more front-foot Arsenal, against a team without their first choice keeper, centre back and right back. I agree with you.

But the fact remains that a loss would have left Arsenal with an impossible task and a close to zero chance of winning the league. Had they lost 3-2 and Liverpool also won, everyone would be ‘Ha ha Arteta’.

As it is, they had a good time against City at The Etihad and could have won. It’s so rare that anyone does that, and Klopp has hardly ever walked away from the ground feeling that way. His side have only scored 6 league goals there in 9 matches from a quick glance.

As I said, I do think that Arsenal could have gone there and won, had they exerted more pressure, but Arteta 100% made the right choice. Keep it tight, try and pinch one. It’s worked for Fergie, Jose, Conte, Ranieri, Wenger, and yes Klopp and Pep too.
I agree with him there, too. It's a perfectly fair point. We definitely could have posed them a few more problems. The international break came at the worst possible time for us and resulted in injuries for them, leading to a poor match, in truth.

I'm also baffled why Havertz seemed to drift to right to compete for long balls with centre-back playing at fullback (Gvardiol) rather than drifting left to tussle with the 5'7" winger play at fullback (Bobb). That seemed like a no-brainer of a mismatch, but we never exploited it.
 

Rozay

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Arsenal for me are easily the best team in the PL at the moment. I have not been particularly impressed by City or Liverpool this season. If teams were not so scared to actually go out and beat City, more of them would actually go out and beat them. Arsenal have been the more dominant team in more of their games than City and Liverpool who have been snatching wins more often.

I think if Arsenal don’t win the league this season they will win it next season when they add a top striker. Arteta and Edu have done a fantastic job there I must say, and have built a title challenging team with smart signings who are pretty much all under the age of 25 too.
 

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This argument between liverpool and arsenal fans is funny when you consider the last time they played Arenal made Liverpool look like a U23 team...
 

Changeisgood

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Havertz was running around without real purpose in this one. I dont think we have our attack set up properly for a full on counter attacking game. It is one area we can definitely improve upon. The movement and passing lanes are a bit different. We could probably learn from Pool on that, as they transition a lot better.
 

Daydreamer

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This argument between liverpool and arsenal fans is funny when you consider the last time they played Arenal made Liverpool look like a U23 team...
I mean, I didn't want to bring it up as it's not directly relevant, but it is true.

Also, Liverpool are top of the league and favourites to win the title. Klopp has played an absolute blinder in adverse circumstances and is further cementing his status with each passing game. I don't get why their fans feel the need to try and boast about his approach in games away City - his record there is pretty underwhelming.
 

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I agree with him there, too. It's a perfectly fair point. We definitely could have posed them a few more problems. The international break came at the worst possible time for us and resulted in injuries for them, leading to a poor match, in truth.

I'm also baffled why Havertz seemed to drift to right to compete for long balls with centre-back playing at fullback (Gvardiol) rather than drifting left to tussle with the 5'7" winger play at fullback (Bobb). That seemed like a no-brainer of a mismatch, but we never exploited it.
I do agree with both you and @Changeisgood
In the broadest terms. But it’s just mad to me that people are suggesting it would have been easy and more viable. Giving Haaland and de Bruyne more space to operate in and have more transitions, higher up the pitch, is just playing into City’s greatest strength.

Truth is, if they win the league by a point or goal difference, Arteta will be largely vindicated. If they lose it by a point, you’ll have a bigger argument.
 

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If you think Arsenal were more likely to win the match by taking the approach they did, then that's fine. I just don't agree.
Check any team who has won away at City in the league since Pep arrived and tell if ANY of them went toe to toe.
Going toe to toe with them away is naive if not foolish. Happy with what is tried and achieved.
 

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Check any team who has won away at City in the league since Pep arrived and tell if ANY of them went toe to toe.
Going toe to toe with them away is naive if not foolish. Happy with what is tried and achieved.
We have won games away at City in the past by killing then on the counter. Arsenal didn't even offer that threat.
 

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We have won games away at City in the past by killing then on the counter. Arsenal didn't even offer that threat.

That was not the plan. Even Jesus and Odegaard in the interview mentioned that they defended deeper than expected. Also we tried that with Trossard/Martinelli in the end, just couldn't get it done.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Help us, Lego-Wan Kenobi. You're our only hope.

(Well, technically Pep Baldwalker will do too - but I don't know how much more of this "it doesn't really count if they win stuff" I can take.)
 

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This argument between liverpool and arsenal fans is funny when you consider the last time they played Arenal made Liverpool look like a U23 team...
You're going to drown the poor Arsenal fans on here with trinkets. Man Utd made us look like an U23 team only a few weeks ago. :lol:
 

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Best manager in the league. I mean, a lot of people in here claim 80% of pool players are shite and he still manages to be top of the league
 

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It’s City away. Why is there so much discussion around a point very well gained at a ground almost nobody ever wins against a team that has won the league in 5 of the last 6 seasons and the current treble winners? City’s approach was also very cautions and risk averse. It made for a very dull game but both teams got what they wanted, avoid defeat, even though I think the onus to win was on City much more than it was on Arsenal.

When Chelsea were winning titles we used to always say beat your rivals at home and avoid defeat away and then beat everyone else. I never went to Old Trafford in any of those years we battled for the league thinking we have to win this. A draw was always ok.
 

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It’s City away. Why is there so much discussion around a point very well gained at a ground almost nobody ever wins against a team that has won the league in 5 of the last 6 seasons and the current treble winners? City’s approach was also very cautions and risk averse. It made for a very dull game but both teams got what they wanted, avoid defeat, even though I think the onus to win was on City much more than it was on Arsenal.

When Chelsea were winning titles we used to always say beat your rivals at home and avoid defeat away and then beat everyone else. I never went to Old Trafford in any of those years we battled for the league thinking we have to win this. A draw was always ok.
That's the difference between a two horse race and a three horse race.
 

WeePat

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That's the difference between a two horse race and a three horse race.
Doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference. Liverpool and City played out 2 draws with each other while they both lost to Arsenal away and failed to beat Arsenal at home. Arsenal have done their job in their head to heads. If they don’t win the title from here, it won’t be because they drew at the Etihad. It would be because they messed up somewhere else.
 

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Doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference. Liverpool and City played out 2 draws with each other while they both lost to Arsenal away and failed to beat Arsenal at home. Arsenal have done their job in their head to heads. If they don’t win the title from here, it won’t be because they drew at the Etihad. It would be because they messed up somewhere else.
True, but the fact they messed up elsewhere previously should have forced them into having to overcompensate (place greater emphasis on winning the game). Instead they chose to gamble on Liverpool slipping up somewhere down the line.
 

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True, but the fact they messed up elsewhere previously should have forced them into having to overcompensate (place greater emphasis on winning the game). Instead they chose to gamble on Liverpool slipping up somewhere down the line.
So, so simple. I'm beginning to understand why Chelsea, Utd and Arsenal fans accept so much of the things they do. I've lived it for over 30 years under Evans, Houllier and Rafa, etc. When you don't win the big things for such a long time, the trinkets are everything. Everything.

I will probably return to that logic in a few seasons myself now Klopp's leaving.
 

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So, so simple. I'm beginning to understand why Chelsea, Utd and Arsenal fans accept so much of the things they do. I've lived it for over 30 years under Evans, Houllier and Rafa, etc. When you don't win the big things for such a long time, the trinkets are everything. Everything.

I will probably return to that logic in a few seasons myself now Klopp's leaving.
Its actually simple, Everyone expects Liverpool to drop points in the last 9 games and good chance city wont.
So its easier to recover lost ground to Liverpool than City.

(Also not sure how suddenly Liverpool fans are acting like they know everything thing about title chases. They have 1 PL title in last 30 years, same as Leicester City.)
 

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You're going to drown the poor Arsenal fans on here with trinkets. Man Utd made us look like an U23 team only a few weeks ago. :lol:
Unintentional but i'll take it :D

The important thing is City don't win, beyond that you guys can knock yourselves out as far as I'm concerned
 

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Its actually simple, Everyone expects Liverpool to drop points in the last 9 games and good chance city wont.
So its easier to recover lost ground to Liverpool than City.

(Also not sure how suddenly Liverpool fans are acting like they know everything thing about title chases. They have 1 PL title in last 30 years, same as Leicester City.)
You just made and completed my point. It's not about Liverpool, never was. It's about City. I'm sure you agree Arsenal are definitely (100%) dropping at least 2 to 3 more points than City this season, right? Conservative estimate.

You and Arteta knew this before kick off on Sunday. You had your destiny in your hand there and then. Three options: win, go 4 points above them. But lose and it's all over. Draw and... well it's still over. See above. Nothing wrong with going for it and missing out. It's when you don't go for it and still miss out that makes it madness.
 
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VARsenal

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You just made and completed my point. It's not about Liverpool, never was. It's about City. I'm sure you agree Arsenal are definitely (100%) dropping at least 2 to 3 more points than City this season, right? Conservative estimate.

You and Arteta knew this before kick off on Sunday. You had your destiny in your hand there and then. Three options: win, go 4 points above them. But lose and it's all over. Draw and... well it's still over. See above. Nothing wrong with going for it and missing out. It's when you don't go for it and still miss out that makes it madness.
You say "win" as if it's some casual stroll past Sheffield united, you yourselves with all your attacking might and "go for it" mantra haven't beaten City at the Etihad once in the league since Klopp arrived, not even this season when they've supposedly been so much worse. Where's this expectation that Arsenal should stroll up to the Etihad and beat City coming from and why haven't Liverpool done it with significantly superior attackers over the past 7/8 years?
 

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You just made and completed my point. It's not about Liverpool, never was. It's about City. I'm sure you agree Arsenal are definitely (100%) dropping at least 2 to 3 more points than City this season, right? Conservative estimate.

You and Arteta knew this before kick off on Sunday. You had your destiny in your hand there and then. Three options: win, go 4 points above them. But lose and it's all over. Draw and... well it's still over. See above. Nothing wrong with going for it and missing out. It's when you don't go for it and still miss out that makes it madness.
Honestly, i can understand this viewpoint but for a couple of things. City are formidable at home, if any team goes there and wins it's by playing counter attacking football and also lucking out a bit. We aren't really set up to play counter attacking football, we lack pace, especially with our main outlets in Martinelli only deemed fit enough from the bench and Saka evidently not 100%. It's an issue with the squad that we need to rectify in the summer, we need at least 1 more option in the squad that adds that pace, Trossard is a totally different type of player.

I think we did try and press a bit higher up the pitch 2nd half, i think we stopped standing off them as much and engaged them more. I think that resulted in a couple of opportunities where we should have done better, Saka crossing across the box that Jesus just missed, and near the end of the game, Trossard should have squared across to where Martinelli was.

The other thing is the players aren't robots. Many will have PTSD from the last couple of visits here. It's not easy to shake that off, so they will naturally be more nervous, anxious, play with a little bit of underlying fear. Plus the fact that City are just good, they press you, they smother you, they block passing lanes, they make it difficult to play and retain the ball, Rodri is a monster and just mops up everywhere if you do beat the press.

Styles make fights as they say. Klopp plays fast, high energy football, not scared to play direct, have pace and players up front like Salah & Nunez that cause chaos and worry defenders in behind, this helps make space in midfield. We don't really play like that, or had the players available to even allow us to really attempt that.
 

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True, but the fact they messed up elsewhere previously should have forced them into having to overcompensate (place greater emphasis on winning the game). Instead they chose to gamble on Liverpool slipping up somewhere down the line.
Which Liverpool likely will, so the question becomes, having set themselves up to be in a prime position to take advantage of Liverpool slipping up, will Arsenal take advantage when it happens? If they don't, we know where they messed up (it ain't the draw at the Etihad). City will likely be on hand to zoom past both of them. If they do, well congrats they have probably won the title.
 

Changeisgood

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You just made and completed my point. It's not about Liverpool, never was. It's about City. I'm sure you agree Arsenal are definitely (100%) dropping at least 2 to 3 more points than City this season, right? Conservative estimate.

You and Arteta knew this before kick off on Sunday. You had your destiny in your hand there and then. Three options: win, go 4 points above them. But lose and it's all over. Draw and... well it's still over. See above. Nothing wrong with going for it and missing out. It's when you don't go for it and still miss out that makes it madness.
You make the league title chase look inevitable....well it isnt. They are actually not in control of anything at the moment. If one of Arsenal or Pool go on. 9 game run they will win it and Coty can't do anything about it. There seems to be a total defeatism about it. Yes the odds are still in City's favour but they are no better off than they were before our game with them.

If the fate of the league rested on us beating City, a team we have not beaten at the Eithad in forever and got trounced by last year, then there wasn't much hope in the first place. And that means Pool should have chased their home fixture against City a lot more themselves.

Although I think we probably only had around a 15% chance of winning the league, I dont put our odds any lower after Sunday. In fact maybe slightly higher. City are not as good as last year in my opinion. They did not effectively replace Gundogan and Mahrez. I like Gvardlol (less so Doku) but they dont exactly replace the other two.

Perk up...there is a definite chance for Pool here. I personally hope that if we dont make it, Pool does.
 

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Honestly, i can understand this viewpoint but for a couple of things. City are formidable at home, if any team goes there and wins it's by playing counter attacking football and also lucking out a bit. We aren't really set up to play counter attacking football, we lack pace, especially with our main outlets in Martinelli only deemed fit enough from the bench and Saka evidently not 100%. It's an issue with the squad that we need to rectify in the summer, we need at least 1 more option in the squad that adds that pace, Trossard is a totally different type of player.

I think we did try and press a bit higher up the pitch 2nd half, i think we stopped standing off them as much and engaged them more. I think that resulted in a couple of opportunities where we should have done better, Saka crossing across the box that Jesus just missed, and near the end of the game, Trossard should have squared across to where Martinelli was.

The other thing is the players aren't robots. Many will have PTSD from the last couple of visits here. It's not easy to shake that off, so they will naturally be more nervous, anxious, play with a little bit of underlying fear. Plus the fact that City are just good, they press you, they smother you, they block passing lanes, they make it difficult to play and retain the ball, Rodri is a monster and just mops up everywhere if you do beat the press.

Styles make fights as they say. Klopp plays fast, high energy football, not scared to play direct, have pace and players up front like Salah & Nunez that cause chaos and worry defenders in behind, this helps make space in midfield. We don't really play like that, or had the players available to even allow us to really attempt that.
Fair enough if you don't think you had the pace without Martinelli to really go for them. And I didn't realise Saka is not his peak self yet. Then you do have bigger problems than I realised. In which a case a draw is decent. Something to reflect on in the summer.
 

Egalitard

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Aug 4, 2015
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Arsenal
Wondering if there are better things to spend your energy on than arguing whether a 0-0 at the Etihad is a good result for Arsenal on a Man United forum. I've decided yes, many.