Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up

eire-red

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It's annoying that Arsenal vs Bayern and City vs Real Madrid are on the same evening.

It will be fascinating to see how Arsenal do. CL knockouts are just a different test altogether to the weekly grind in the PL.
 

QuietOn Fortune

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For me, more than Arteta (who has been great) the main reason Arsenal are where they are today is because of Edu.

He is the one who has rebuilt that club.

Arteta seems to have picked up on ex-city players like Jesus & Zinchenko whilst I think Edu has built most of the proper team.
 

The_Midfielder

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They will be crying after their game at OT
I don't care if we lose all our matches except liverpool and arsenal
 

CannonBalls

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For me, more than Arteta (who has been great) the main reason Arsenal are where they are today is because of Edu.

He is the one who has rebuilt that club.

Arteta seems to have picked up on ex-city players like Jesus & Zinchenko whilst I think Edu has built most of the proper team.
Well its a joint effort.

Both have had their flaws. There was a time Edu was under scanner because of his dealings with his agent Kia with the club. This was also around the time Raul got sacked aswell. After which both Edu and Arteta were promoted.
Edu then started this vision of hiring u23 players first then gradually to u25.

Both Jesus/Zinchenko were not primary targets they were backups and it seems we have already outgrown both now atleast as starting 11.
 

Blood Mage

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Cheering on Arsenal in these last few games is going to be sickening, but I'd rather be cheering on them than City.
 

JoeyAbs

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Looking at when and where we could seal it, I would much rather win it at The Emirates than even Old Trafford. That stadium needs its defining moment.
 

Redstain

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They are annoyingly very very impressive. You have to give Arteta enormous credit, whether they win the title or not. He’s proven he’s an excellent coach.
I think that's an understatement he's beyond an excellent coach he's presently one of the best in Europe and a prestigious trophy will cement his position among Pep, Klopp etc as being world class.
 

TwoSheds

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I think that's an understatement he's beyond an excellent coach he's presently one of the best in Europe and a prestigious trophy will cement his position among Pep, Klopp etc as being world class.
Behave. One trophy so far. He's not even proven he's Conte level yet never mind Klopp and Pep. I am very impressed with Arsenal this year though, much more so than last. Turning Havertz into a half decent player again would be a feather in anyone's cap.
 

Redstain

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Behave. One trophy so far. He's not even proven he's Conte level yet never mind Klopp and Pep. I am very impressed with Arsenal this year though, much more so than last. Turning Havertz into a half decent player again would be a feather in anyone's cap.
If he wins a UCL or premier league in his fifth season in management, breaking a 20 year void while observing what the team did last season, in what sense is he not world class? What was Conte doing in his fifth season as a coach by comparison.
 

TwoSheds

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If he wins a UCL or premier league in his fifth season in management, breaking a 20 year void while observing what the team did last season, in what sense is he not world class? What was Conte doing in his fifth season as a coach by comparison.
Feel free to have a look at his Wikipedia if you like but here's a snippet

His managerial career started in 2006, leading Bari to a Serie B title, and Siena to promotion from the same division two years later. He took over at Juventus in 2011 and won three consecutive Serie A titles
 

Redstain

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Feel free to have a look at his Wikipedia if you like but here's a snippet
Not sure Wiki is a good source as it states:

In July 2006, he was appointed coach of Serie B side Arezzo. After a series of disappointing results, he was sacked on 31 October 2006.
On 13 March 2007, Conte was reinstated as Arezzo head coach as his predecessor Maurizio Sarri failed to gain any significant improvement with the club mired in a relegation struggle. He subsequently led the team to five consecutive wins, securing 19 points from 7 matches, which allowed the Tuscan side to close the points gap between them and safety. Despite this turnaround in form, Arezzo was relegated to Serie C1 on the final day of the league season, finishing one point behind Spezia.

He then encountered success in the second division of Serie B 2007, which still doesn't have the competitive merit as the first division in the English league. I'm not disclosing that Conte isn't an accredited coach, but Arteta has the pedigree of a world class manager given his trajectory and what he's demonstrating at present being an inexperienced manager. He's also doing what no United manager has achieved in even challenging for the league in a decade with numerate resources in two consecutive seasons.
 

TwoSheds

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Not sure Wiki is a good source as it states:

In July 2006, he was appointed coach of Serie B side Arezzo. After a series of disappointing results, he was sacked on 31 October 2006.
On 13 March 2007, Conte was reinstated as Arezzo head coach as his predecessor Maurizio Sarri failed to gain any significant improvement with the club mired in a relegation struggle. He subsequently led the team to five consecutive wins, securing 19 points from 7 matches, which allowed the Tuscan side to close the points gap between them and safety. Despite this turnaround in form, Arezzo was relegated to Serie C1 on the final day of the league season, finishing one point behind Spezia.

He then encountered success in the second division of Serie B 2007, which still doesn't have the competitive merit as the first division in the English league. I'm not disclosing that Conte isn't an accredited coach, but Arteta has the pedigree of a world class manager given his trajectory and what he's demonstrating at present being an inexperienced manager. He's also doing what no United manager has achieved in even challenging for the league in a decade with numerate resources in two consecutive seasons.
Ok so he won the league with Bari in his 3rd season as a coach and then won three on the bounce in his 6th, 7th, 8th seasons along with 2 cups...

From goal.com:
HonourClubYear(s) won
Serie BBari2008-09
Serie AJuventus2011-12, 2012-13, 2013-14
Supercoppa ItalianaJuventus2012, 2013
Premier LeagueChelsea2016-17
FA CupChelsea2017-18
Serie AInter2020-21

I'm not the one proclaiming Arteta as world class if he wins his 2nd trophy, just pointing out that it's highly premature. I do hope they win the league this year but they've no chance in the CL I don't think. Ok Bayern aren't very good but City and Real are better than them. Even if they won both the competitions they're still in he'd still be a long way from proving himself at the Klopp and Pep level as you suggested, he wouldn't have even proven himself at the Conte level.
 

Egalitard

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Trying not to get my hopes up. Saka and Gabriel have both been carrying injuries - if either breaks then I am not sure we can go to Spurs and Old Trafford and expect much. We've got Villa after Bayern leg 1 and Wolves away after Bayern leg 2.

The margin for error is non existent. It's going to get a bit fecking tense.
 

Egalitard

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Adding that United's draw yesterday has secured Champions League qualification for Arsenal for a second season running. That this has gone largely unremarked upon speaks volumes about Arteta's success in, as he would put it, 'raising the efoggin standards'.
 

reddevilchennai

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Looking at when and where we could seal it, I would much rather win it at The Emirates than even Old Trafford. That stadium needs its defining moment.
We would prefer you guys over City and Liverpool, but sadly you will be bottling this.
 

CannonBalls

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Not sure why everyone keeps saying Liverpool have the easiest run in. City has the easiest runin
 

Lincm

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Trying not to get my hopes up. Saka and Gabriel have both been carrying injuries - if either breaks then I am not sure we can go to Spurs and Old Trafford and expect much. We've got Villa after Bayern leg 1 and Wolves away after Bayern leg 2.

The margin for error is non existent. It's going to get a bit fecking tense.
the last time arsenal won at Utd was in 2020 by a single goal. Utd’s had the occasional game raise at home against the bigger clubs as Liverpool just experienced. We’ll have a better picture of who’s still in the running before that game.
 

Bilbo

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Adding that United's draw yesterday has secured Champions League qualification for Arsenal for a second season running. That this has gone largely unremarked upon speaks volumes about Arteta's success in, as he would put it, 'raising the efoggin standards'.
What's also largely unremarked upon is that Arteta was given a very rare gift in football - that of being allowed time to fail.

Nobody would have argued if he was sacked after two 8th place finishes, and who knows what would have happened to him after that. Probably would have taken at least 5 years to get back to a big club, if he ever did.

The fact that he has made it work is testament to him and the club, but I'm a firm advocate that managers are sacked far too early these days and I believe a lot of managers would have built better sides at many clubs had they been given the same support that Arteta has had - time, patience and financial backing to actually build a team and a culture.

I'm not convinced that makes Arteta some elite talent. He needs to do a lot more to get there
 

Egalitard

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What's also largely unremarked upon is that Arteta was given a very rare gift in football - that of being allowed time to fail.

Nobody would have argued if he was sacked after two 8th place finishes, and who knows what would have happened to him after that. Probably would have taken at least 5 years to get back to a big club, if he ever did.

The fact that he has made it work is testament to him and the club, but I'm a firm advocate that managers are sacked far too early these days and I believe a lot of managers would have built better sides at many clubs had they been given the same support that Arteta has had - time, patience and financial backing to actually build a team and a culture.

I'm not convinced that makes Arteta some elite talent. He needs to do a lot more to get there
Yes very true. The margins are fine.

Whether Arteta is truly an elite talent will ultimately be judged by whether he wins the big prizes. I know what I've seen during his time with us, though. If he doesn't do it with us, I'm convinced he'll do it with someone else.
 

CannonBalls

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What's also largely unremarked upon is that Arteta was given a very rare gift in football - that of being allowed time to fail.

Nobody would have argued if he was sacked after two 8th place finishes, and who knows what would have happened to him after that. Probably would have taken at least 5 years to get back to a big club, if he ever did.

The fact that he has made it work is testament to him and the club, but I'm a firm advocate that managers are sacked far too early these days and I believe a lot of managers would have built better sides at many clubs had they been given the same support that Arteta has had - time, patience and financial backing to actually build a team and a culture.

I'm not convinced that makes Arteta some elite talent. He needs to do a lot more to get there
He is just 41 year old. Except Pep and now Alonso which other manager has been able to transform the club the way he has at that age. We all remember where we were before he joined. He is one of the few coaches who is capable to building an identity for the club basically a project manager.
Still I agree he needs to win things to be in discussion of elite coaches.
 

Bilbo

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He is just 41 year old. Except Pep and now Alonso which other manager has been able to transform the club the way he has at that age. We all remember where we were before he joined. He is one of the few coaches who is capable to building an identity for the club basically a project manager.
Still I agree he needs to win things to be in discussion of elite coaches.
That's not really the point I'm making though. He's done very well.

My point is that he would not have survived long enough to do well at most clubs given his first two, arguably even three, seasons. He has been fortunate to be in that position and I think there are many more managers out there that would do well at big clubs if they were afforded the same opportunity to fail in the way that he did.
 

Changeisgood

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City's run in is indeed the easiest of the three. We need to win all remaining games.
 

WeePat

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That's not really the point I'm making though. He's done very well.

My point is that he would not have survived long enough to do well at most clubs given his first two, arguably even three, seasons. He has been fortunate to be in that position and I think there are many more managers out there that would do well at big clubs if they were afforded the same opportunity to fail in the way that he did.
This is why Arsenal fans rightly make sure to mention Edu as well when people are praising Arteta. It seems to me from the outside looking in that Arsenal are a club that is in complete sync from top to bottom. Yes Arteta has the personality to get players to buy in but as we've seen, an overhaul like that takes time and if he was at Chelsea, and probably even United (and Tottenham even?), he would probably have been sacked after his second season. The majority of Arsenal fans wanted him sacked. You have to credit Edu and the club for believing in the plan and sticking with it even when nobody else believed in it. I typically advocate for time for managers. My ideal situation is what Liverpool and Arsenal have. A long term manager that everyone believes in. Arteta does need to win for all this to be cemented but I'm pretty certain they will, sadly, if not this season then definitely in the next 2 seasons.

It might get laughed at now but the reason I wanted to give Potter time was because I'd seen how he had improved Brighton over 3 years and then I'd seen how Arteta had improved Arsenal over the same period and I had hoped if we just persevered through the adversity we could come through the other side in a great place. There's a pretty seismic difference between our board and their board though and for me, that ultimately doomed Potter, will likely also doom Poch.
 

CannonBalls

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This is why Arsenal fans rightly make sure to mention Edu as well when people are praising Arteta. It seems to me from the outside looking in that Arsenal are a club that is in complete sync from top to bottom. Yes Arteta has the personality to get players to buy in but as we've seen, an overhaul like that takes time and if he was at Chelsea, and probably even United (and Tottenham even?), he would probably have been sacked after his second season. The majority of Arsenal fans wanted him sacked. You have to credit Edu and the club for believing in the plan and sticking with it even when nobody else believed in it. I typically advocate for time for managers. My ideal situation is what Liverpool and Arsenal have. A long term manager that everyone believes in. Arteta does need to win for all this to be cemented but I'm pretty certain they will, sadly, if not this season then definitely in the next 2 seasons.

It might get laughed at now but the reason I wanted to give Potter time was because I'd seen how he had improved Brighton over 3 years and then I'd seen how Arteta had improved Arsenal over the same period and I had hoped if we just persevered through the adversity we could come through the other side in a great place. There's a pretty seismic difference between our board and their board though and for me, that ultimately doomed Potter, will likely also doom Poch.

Yes Edu has had a huge role to play. He convinced Arteta to go for u23 players
 

ThierryHenry14

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This is why Arsenal fans rightly make sure to mention Edu as well when people are praising Arteta. It seems to me from the outside looking in that Arsenal are a club that is in complete sync from top to bottom. Yes Arteta has the personality to get players to buy in but as we've seen, an overhaul like that takes time and if he was at Chelsea, and probably even United (and Tottenham even?), he would probably have been sacked after his second season. The majority of Arsenal fans wanted him sacked. You have to credit Edu and the club for believing in the plan and sticking with it even when nobody else believed in it.
Both deserved the credit they rightly deserved for rebuilding the team and also the cultural side of the dressing room. I don't understand how internal works in Arsenal but from the first couple episodes in the Amazon documentary, Josh had confidence in Arteta and backed him 100%. I don't know what Arteta did and convinced Josh he was the right man when the results were bad at the time. I am not sure if Edu is the man who has the authority to call the shot on the manager either at the time.
 

JoeyAbs

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Ah so it's not about if you'll win it, rather about where you'll win it!
I said we could win it, not that we’re going to.

We’re rightfully favourites though. It’s just about whether this current City side can win seven straight times.
 

Mogget

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I said we could win it, not that we’re going to.

We’re rightfully favourites though. It’s just about whether this current City side can win seven straight times.
We're not favourites though. And I'd say this City side winning seven in a row is pretty manageable
 

Gene Loblaw

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Arsenal have the most difficult run in of games. But unlike last season, Arsenal are fully fit and healthy. The squad just got Jesus, Zinchenko, Partey, and Tomiyasu back all recently. And Martinelli is working his way back to full fitness too. So the squad is definitely prepared for the final month and half of the season.

Defense wins championships. At least that's a common sports saying here in the colonies. And Arsenal have been playing the best defense in the league.
 

CannonBalls

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That's what Chelsea have tried to do. They've just gone about it completely wrong.
Thats just one part though.
That and clearing the squad (except Sterling who got added).
But the biggest part is that everyone from owners to DOF to Manager and his staff has to be on the same wavelength. This is what Arsenal have done.

What Chelsea have done is take the Brighton model (including some personal). Where long term hiring is done by Technical Directors and hire a head coach. Head coach does not have much say in transfers as we have seen with Poch and Potter before. IF it clicks over a long term this is better (as currently if Arteta leaves its very difficult to replace him) but its much harder to make it work.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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This is why Arsenal fans rightly make sure to mention Edu as well when people are praising Arteta. It seems to me from the outside looking in that Arsenal are a club that is in complete sync from top to bottom. Yes Arteta has the personality to get players to buy in but as we've seen, an overhaul like that takes time and if he was at Chelsea, and probably even United (and Tottenham even?), he would probably have been sacked after his second season. The majority of Arsenal fans wanted him sacked. You have to credit Edu and the club for believing in the plan and sticking with it even when nobody else believed in it. I typically advocate for time for managers. My ideal situation is what Liverpool and Arsenal have. A long term manager that everyone believes in. Arteta does need to win for all this to be cemented but I'm pretty certain they will, sadly, if not this season then definitely in the next 2 seasons.

It might get laughed at now but the reason I wanted to give Potter time was because I'd seen how he had improved Brighton over 3 years and then I'd seen how Arteta had improved Arsenal over the same period and I had hoped if we just persevered through the adversity we could come through the other side in a great place. There's a pretty seismic difference between our board and their board though and for me, that ultimately doomed Potter, will likely also doom Poch.
The best endorsement of Edu and Arteta is the sheer number of top quality young players that are signing new long term contracts.

Arsenal of just four years ago would be haemorrhaging talent to better and more ambitious teams.

As it stands, their best players are all on long term deals. Sure, they may leave, but they’ll fetch a fortune.

Extremely well ran club.