Arsenal's 03/04 Invincibles are overrated

[VorZakone]

The only interesting aspect is that they went unbeaten in the PL. There's literally nothing else that stands out. Their pts total of 90 was surpassed by Chelsea in the 2 seasons following.

And they reached 0 cup finals (eliminated by Man Utd, Middlesbrough and surprisingly Chelsea in the CL).

 

[FrankDrebin]

I mean,no.
It's a bloody good achievement.

 

[2 man midfield]

11 draws tells it’s own story.

 

[horsechoker]

They're the only team to do it, they might not be the best team and they probably wouldn't have been able to do it in the modern PL era but it's still a great achievement.

United never scored high points totals but those teams were still fantastic.

 

[VorZakone]

11 draws tells it’s own story.

12 draws.

 

[Skills]

Henry, Vieira & Sol Campbell were obviously top class. But then you see players like Keown, Gilberto Silva & Lauren - and think, were they really invincible? Tbf Chelsea came in and changed the game with the amount they spent & the amount of talent they assembled.

 

[2 man midfield]

12 draws.

Even worse then. It’s a good achievement, but I’d say the fact that they won the league is in itself more impressive than the fact they didn’t lose whilst drawing 12 times.

 

[JinnerJamie]

They wouldn't even be a thing had Ruud not killed the crossbar with that penalty, overrated maybe but it was still a great achievement and it deserves some acclaim.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

It’s a great achievement - in that it hadn’t been done before.

But the aim of football is to win, and with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw you are rewarded for taking risks.

it’s therefore a very overrated team, and it’s not one of the great PL teams by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[DWelbz19]

The indrawcibles

Henry, Vieira & Sol Campbell were obviously top class. But then you see players like Keown, Gilberto Silva & Lauren - and think, were they really invincible? Tbf Chelsea came in and changed the game with the amount they spent & the amount of talent they assembled.

Literally the very next season Chelsea outdid them. They lost only once; they won the most amount of games in a season; they amassed the most points until that point in PL history; and crazily conceded only 15 goals that season. Cech got 24 clean sheets that season.

 

[rcoobc]

Didnt they go through the ENTIRE premier league season unbeaten?

And still, most people don't rate them in the top 3 best Premier League sides when taking into account other competitions?

Seems like they are rated quite fairly

 

[El Zoido]

They should have lost to Portsmouth. Seem to remember they were losing 1-0 with 10 minutes to go and Pires took one of the most blatant dives ever to win them a penalty and salvage a draw. In a VAR era they probably would have lost that game.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Yeh all I remember from that season is the Pires dive against Portsmouth. But nonetheless an amazing achievement which is great to hold as a club. I’d like us to do it

 

[SilentStrike]

Didnt they go through the ENTIRE premier league season unbeaten?

And still, most people don't rate them in the top 3 best Premier League sides when taking into account other competitions?

Seems like they are rated quite fairly

I saw a poll the other day about what team was the best of all time so far

There were like 10 options, with obvious ones like Pep's Barca, Heynckes' Bayern and Sacchi's Milan at the top.

Yet the 'invincibles' winning the poll...

Yes they are definitely overrated

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

Even though they finished with 3 fewer points, I actually rate the Arsenal of 2001/2002 above the Arsenal of 2003/2004, admittedly using subjective or more dubious reasoning.

I thought that they played more attractive football in 2001/2002, and they scored in every game (the only time that has been done in the Premier League era). Alongside City's in 2018/2019 they had arguably the best 'title charge' in the PL era that season, with 18 wins and 3 draws from their last 21 matches and 13 wins in a row to end the season, including away wins against each of the other 3 teams that finished in the top 4, Liverpool, Newcastle and of course Utd to clinch it at Old Trafford. It was impressive how they transformed their very poor away record in 2000/2001 to their outstanding away record in 2001/2002.

While they failed to beat Liverpool or Newcastle at home in the league that season, they did beat them both at home in the FA Cup, so domestically they beat each of the other top 4 teams home and away at some point during the season, while they failed to beat Utd in 4 attempts in 2003/2004 if you also include the Community Shield.

 

[Lay]

If they knocked out Chelsea, they would have won the CL in my opinion

 

[Andersonson]

Henry, Vieira & Sol Campbell were obviously top class. But then you see players like Keown, Gilberto Silva & Lauren - and think, were they really invincible? Tbf Chelsea came in and changed the game with the amount they spent & the amount of talent they assembled.

Gilberto Silva and Lauren was top class....
Silva was a constant starter for a great brazilian team that won the world cup. Thats how good he was

 

[El Jefe]

The only interesting aspect is that they went unbeaten in the PL. There's literally nothing else that stands out. Their pts total of 90 was surpassed by Chelsea in the 2 seasons following.

And they reached 0 cup finals (eliminated by Man Utd, Middlesbrough and surprisingly Chelsea in the CL).

I've been saying this for years, you're absolutely correct.

In my opinion to be a great team, you have to defend your title or win the CL and Arsenal did neither. It's a great achievement to go unbeaten of course but all this team did was win the league. They were poor in the other cups and easily gave up their throne to Mourinho's Chelsea.

Also for an attacking juggernaut they really didn't score that much. For context, the invincible only scored one more goal than Chelsea's defensive title winning teams in the two following seasons.

 

[adexkola]

The goal of football is to rack as many away CL wins as possible

 

[90 + 5min]

The only interesting aspect is that they went unbeaten in the PL. There's literally nothing else that stands out. Their pts total of 90 was surpassed by Chelsea in the 2 seasons following.

And they reached 0 cup finals (eliminated by Man Utd, Middlesbrough and surprisingly Chelsea in the CL).

Can you come back at least when other teams go unbeaten a whole season. If it ever happens again.

 

[adexkola]

Can you come back at least when other teams go unbeaten a whole season. If it ever happens again.

Also this

I remember the jubilation on here when Watford denied Liverpool that privilege. Significant accomplishment, and no you don't need to see a team win the title again in order to label it great, as if 38 fecking games isn't enough

One can make the argument that the 97/98 and 01/02 teams were better though

 

[Adisa]

Agree. Unbeaten but 90 points.
That's poo.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I think people are being harsh, it’s an incredible achievement and I have lost count of the amount of times that people proclaim it’s going to happen again (City two years ago, Liverpool this season) and yet it never does. I think someone will do it eventually but even so it’s a very difficult thing to do.

Having said that, they aren’t the best team in premier league history either just because of this. Utd have had at least a two better sides, I think Mourinho’s Chelsea were better and I think Peps City would beat them too, but losing out to those sides is no great shame.

 

[buckooo1978]

It's nowhere near a treble in terms of achievement but the fact they are the only ones to do it tells you it is a great achievement

 

[VorZakone]

I may sound harsh in my OP. It's a great achievement but IMO they should never be mentioned in discussions about which PL sides were the greatest. Like mentioned in my OP, there's simply nothing else there.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Also this

I remember the jubilation on here when Watford denied Liverpool that privilege. Significant accomplishment, and no you don't need to see a team win the title again in order to label it great, as if 38 fecking games isn't enough

One can make the argument that the 97/98 and 01/02 teams were better though

So you can make at argument that 2 Arsenal teams were better? Add in Chelsea, Man Utd and City which all had multiple better teams and whilst the fact that being unbeaten in a season is a great achievement, I’d rather a double or a treble, or a more exciting title winning team, or a team that tops 100 points than this.

it’s unique, but perhaps if Arsenal would have been braver they would have won multiple trophies that year. Their mentality was not to lose during the second half of that season, and not to win - there’s a big difference.

 

[rcoobc]

I saw a poll the other day about what team was the best of all time so far

There were like 10 options, with obvious ones like Pep's Barca, Heynckes' Bayern and Sacchi's Milan at the top.

Yet the 'invincibles' winning the poll...

Yes they are definitely overrated

Was it on a arsenal forum?

 

[rcoobc]

I may sound harsh in my OP. It's a great achievement but IMO they should never be mentioned in discussions about which PL sides were the greatest. Like mentioned in my OP, there's simply nothing else there.

The jubilation when we beat then to end their 49 game beaten run tells me they were pretty good

 

[FrankDrebin]

Even though they finished with 3 fewer points, I actually rate the Arsenal of 2001/2002 above the Arsenal of 2003/2004, admittedly using subjective or more dubious reasoning.

I thought that they played more attractive football in 2001/2002, and they scored in every game (the only time that has been done in the Premier League era). Alongside City's in 2018/2019 they had arguably the best 'title charge' in the PL era that season, with 18 wins and 3 draws from their last 21 matches and 13 wins in a row to end the season, including away wins against each of the other 3 teams that finished in the top 4, Liverpool, Newcastle and of course Utd to clinch it at Old Trafford. It was impressive how they transformed their very poor away record in 2000/2001 to their outstanding away record in 2001/2002.

While they failed to beat Liverpool or Newcastle at home in the league that season, they did beat them both at home in the FA Cup, so domestically they beat each of the other top 4 teams home and away at some point during the season, while they failed to beat Utd in 4 attempts in 2003/2004 if you also include the Community Shield.

I think most Arsenal fans would accept that they played better football in 2001/2002.

 

[Spoony]

They were a fantastic side...I loved our tussles with them.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

I guess to be fair to Arsenal, it must be said at the time when the 2003/2004 season ended, 26 wins from 38 matches (i.e. slightly better than 2 wins from every 3 matches) was a very healthy win-rate for league champions in the Premier League era. The only previous season in which Premier League champions had a better win rate was Utd with 28 wins in 1999/2000. Arsenal themselves had also won 26 games in 2001/2002.

If we look at the number of games won by league champions in the Premier League era up to that point:

1992/1993 - 24 wins from 42 games for Utd
1993/1994 - 27 wins from 42 games for Utd
1994/1995 - 27 wins from 42 games for Blackburn
1995/1996 - 25 wins for Utd
1996/1997 - 21 wins for Utd
1997/1998 - 23 wins for Arsenal
1998/1999 - 22 wins for Utd
1999/2000 - 28 wins for Utd
2000/2001 - 24 wins for Utd
2001/2002 - 26 wins for Arsenal
2002/2003 - 25 wins for Utd
2003/2004 - 26 wins for Arsenal

However it's true that Mourinho's Chelsea upped the ante and the win-rate by Premier League champions did increase in future seasons:

2004/2005 - 29 wins for Chelsea
2005/2006 - 29 wins for Chelsea
2006/2007 - 28 wins for Utd
2007/2008 - 27 wins for Utd
2008/2009 - 28 wins for Utd
2009/2010 - 27 wins for Chelsea
2010/2011 - 23 wins for Utd
2011/2012 - 28 wins for City
2012/2013 - 28 wins for Utd
2013/2014 - 27 wins for City
2014/2015 - 26 wins for Chelsea
2015/2016 - 23 wins for Leicester
2016/2017 - 30 wins for Chelsea
2017/2018 - 32 wins for City
2018/2019 - 32 wins for City
2019/2020 - 27 wins already for Liverpool

To clarify, there were several seasons in which the runners-up won the same number of games as the champions, but there were no seasons in which another team won more games outright than the champions.

 

[OleBoiii]

They're not even the 5th best team in the PL era, imo.

Keep in mind that my definition of "team" isn't limited to just a single season.

 

[Red_Aaron]

League tournaments don't happen in isolation though (well, I guess this one might end in isolation ) the cup competitions matter and make up a big part of the season as a whole.

I guess my issue is the term (which tbf is a sky sports creation) how can you be called invincible when you've lost, was it 4 times that season

I'm not so bothered that I'd come up with a more suitable name though

 

[adexkola]

So you can make at argument that 2 Arsenal teams were better? Add in Chelsea, Man Utd and City which all had multiple better teams and whilst the fact that being unbeaten in a season is a great achievement, I’d rather a double or a treble, or a more exciting title winning team, or a team that tops 100 points than this.

it’s unique, but perhaps if Arsenal would have been braver they would have won multiple trophies that year. Their mentality was not to lose during the second half of that season, and not to win - there’s a big difference.

I think an argument can be made either way. And dick measuring contests aside, you'd be hard pressed to argue that the Invincibles/Indrawables/whatever were not a great team. Spoiler alert: if you win your league then you have a seat at the table.

 

[RyRy11]

It’s a great achievement to have but once another team does it no one will care anymore. I’d rather lose games and win a double or a treble.

 

[adexkola]

I'd like to see the caf evolve to the point where we can compare teams based on the merits of a single season

 

[Bebestation]

Also this

I remember the jubilation on here when Watford denied Liverpool that privilege. Significant accomplishment, and no you don't need to see a team win the title again in order to label it great, as if 38 fecking games isn't enough

One can make the argument that the 97/98 and 01/02 teams were better though

I agree with this.

People on this forum would be left with a tear if Liverpool ended up being unbeaten because ultimately it's an achievement people do remember and it's an achievement every club would have wanted associated with their club.

As long as you win the title and your unbeaten - I dont see why the amount of points is so important; that's just comparing the teams relegated from the season before to teams that got promoted the season after, comparing the new managers and tactics with the old ones and the transfers both in and out whilst assuming that nothing will ever change in consistency.

It's an achievement on top of a title and not a title within itself.

 

[njred]

They are still the only team to go unbeaten. Until that’s over they will forever be known as the Invincibles and rightly so. We have recently seen that it is almost impossible to pull off even with all the draws.

 

[Karel Podolsky]

My most favourite EPL team ever. "The Invincible" will be forever belongs to Arsenal.
But I agree the probably the 4th or 5th best team in EPL era.

Had City 2017/2018 put more focus in becoming invincible they would probably be one. I don't remember their first defeat but I am sure it's after match day 30th up.

Edit: sorry I thought their loss to United in matchday 32 was their first. Their first lost was in matchday 23.

 

[90 + 5min]

Also this

I remember the jubilation on here when Watford denied Liverpool that privilege. Significant accomplishment, and no you don't need to see a team win the title again in order to label it great, as if 38 fecking games isn't enough

One can make the argument that the 97/98 and 01/02 teams were better though

As a supporter for another team (ManUtd) I can still see some big things being done by other teams. To go unbeaten a whole season is nothing less then Amazing and all credit to Arsene Wenger and company. Whatever Arsenal did in other competitions doesn't concern me. Arsenal had a great team and any team going unbeaten a whole season in Premier League should be applauded.

There were lot of great teams through the years from different clubs. And this Arsenal team was one of those.