Assessing Man Utd's psychological fortitude: Who are the weak links?

rio's upper lip

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As we await the start of the new season under ten Hag, it's important to reflect on the challenges that have plagued the club in recent times. One major concern that has haunted us has been the issue of psychological fragility in certain players, leading to collapses under pressure in too many games in recent years. With ten Hag making significant changes to the squad over the course of a couple of windows (with possible additions coming), it's an opportune moment to discuss where the weak psychological links still remain in the team.

With a squad fully fit, this is probably the starting XI for the first few matches:
  • Onana
  • Shaw
  • Martinez
  • Varane
  • Dalot
  • Casemiro
  • Mount
  • Fernandes
  • Rashford
  • Antony
  • Højlund/Martial/Sancho
Players like McTominay, Maguire, Lindelof, Wan-Bissaka, Garnacho and Eriksen will also get plenty of minutes and their mental fortitude will be critical throughout the season.

Who do you believe might still be struggling mentally in high-stakes games? And, conversely, which players have consistently demonstrated the mental fortitude to excel under pressure? With Erik ten Hag second go at it just around the corner, the big question is: Can his coaching turn the tide and toughen Manchester United's mental game enough for us to truly compete for glory?
 
Looking at the players, the first thought was there's no obvious weak link in the starting 11, but then you remember that a lot of them played in the defeat at anfield as well as some other shocking displays last season. So I think I'll reserve judgement for now!
 
There is absolutely no way for us to know this. The whole armchair psychology thing is a bit pointless because we just can't know. Is McTominay hiding from the ball because he's a coward or does he just not have the awareness and anticipation? Does Maguire commit stupid mistakes because he's mentally fragile or simply because he physically and technically can't cope with the demands of a team that isn't set out to protect its back four first and foremost?
 
Would it not be speculation based on almost nothing? Effort is not the same as mental fortitude.
 
Siorac said:
There is absolutely no way for us to know this. The whole armchair psychology thing is a bit pointless because we just can't know. Is McTominay hiding from the ball because he's a coward or does he just not have the awareness and anticipation? Does Maguire commit stupid mistakes because he's mentally fragile or simply because he physically and technically can't cope with the demands of a team that isn't set out to protect its back four first and foremost?
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Yep. Bruno could either seem mentally tough (he's a leader, he shouts a lot, he runs a lot) or he could be seen as mentally weak (he's a moaner, he laments teammates far too often, he gives up/throws his arms around) when things aren't going our way. People will just end up targeting the players they dislike the most - for the majority anyway and find reasons/results to suit that agenda.
 
Scandi Red said:
Would it not be speculation based on almost nothing? Effort is not the same as mental fortitude.
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Won’t be based on nothing. It’ll be based on who the internet fandom hates - so Maguire and Mctominay will clearly be deemed the mental weaklings stopping the others from not getting smashed 7-0 at anfield by their mere presence around the place.
 
Feels like Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Lindelof, Dalot and Rashford are fair weather players and who melt at places like anfield or in the big games in the last couple of seasons if we go behind.

Letting city, Liverpool score 5,6,7 goals is a mental thing. Being able to to stop them and fight back, bring yourself in the back in the game is a big thing to have and I feel these players do not have it.

I am guessing the Onana will help the defense in with this bit.
 
Maguire
McTominay
Lindelof
Sancho
I think AWB but not in the same way, I think he’s a confidence player
 
Looking at some of the mentions so far: it's possible to not be very good at football without being mentally weak. Just saying...
 
Scandi Red said:
Looking at some of the mentions so far: it's possible to not be very good at football without being mentally weak. Just saying...
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Actually re thinking. Yes makes sense, you will need to be mentally strong to make it big in football.

But once you are there, in the last two seasons, we have been beaten so badly by our biggest rivals, it has to be a mental thing.

How do you let Liverpool score 20 goals in 4 games for the past 3 seasons if it's not a mental thing?
 
@rio's upper lip I always felt like David de Gea was mentally weak, personally. Which is strange because he was a real Jekyll and Hyde for us, he would literally pull off unbelievable saves in the last minutes of games to win them for us when he was clearly riding a wave - but against the likes of City, Liverpool, for Spain and for us in the CL + Europa later stages he often felt like an absolute liability.

I'm not suggesting that Onana will necessarily improve us in that regard, but he's certainly played his share of big games at this point at 27 years old. Whether I'm proven correct in the long run I am not sure, I always felt like a commanding presence - and some early game saves - would help us, de Gea often let in the first shot on target against him.
 
People saying McTominay is mentally weak - I'd love to hear their reasoning for it. He's one of the more mentally strong players in our squad as far as I'm aware. Gets flack from fans and doesn't get impacted by it in his performances or (as far as I can tell) his overall attitude. He's in the faces of our opponents and is verbal towards the players he plays with, and if he goes without minutes he still comes back fighting.

Sancho could perhaps be seen as mentally weak by some, but perhaps our playstyle just really doesn't suit him because he never had issues at Dortmund. Still, the fact that the manager mentioned it is telling. Shaw has also been mentioned in the past for his mentality, but more so that he struggles mentally when he's not being challenged -whenever a challenge comes up he seems to step up, hence whenever a new LB is brought in he seems to come out stronger for it.

Honestly, I agree with those that said that it's simply not something we can really know for sure.
 
For a long time our weaknesses have been obvious to our opponents. Struggles to play out from the back, incapable defensive midfielders (McFred) offering options, a lack of balance on the right side and Harry Maguire. A lack of technical consistency from players like Bruno and Rashford haven’t helped either.

Whenever these weaknesses have been preyed upon the team have imploded a bit, making it seem like a mental issue. Now most of those weaknesses are seemingly fixed hopefully we’ll see a lot less of it happening.

My only slight concern going into the new season is Casemiro‘s workload, having two offensive 8/10s in front of him. Ten Hag sees Bruno on the right as a solution in the big games, which to me is introducing another weak point, rather than a solution.
 
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I think as a team and club we’ve been suffering from confidence issues for the last 10 years really and this has had a tremendous effect on self belief and mental resilience.

The friction in the dressing room, lack of cohesion on the pitch and changing managers and systems have all had an effect too. So it’s difficult at times to know whether it’s a player being low or not having the dog and fight in them.
When players are happy and winning they run harder and fight more, so if we can sustain the form shown at times last season more this, the benefits will show. Think this rings true especially for a few in our squad who are ‘ confidence’ players.

I think we know the obvious candidates but think Ten is having effect on those individuals too, hopefully!
 
In terms of the starting line-up, Shaw and Rashford do seem likely to fall apart when things start going bad. The question is whether they are naturally like that or whether it's just a reaction to having been here so long in teams that had no real leaders and that have fairly consistently shit the bed. If it's the latter then the team around them developing with the leaders and fighting mentality that ETH is bringing will hopefully bring out their own drive and fighting instinct.

As much as I do like him, Martial seems an obvious one. Likely Sancho as well.
 
hard to define mental fortitude, maybe players who need a lot confidence to play well would another way to gauge?

For example, Rashford would hang his head down and sort of gave up when his confidence is shot for whatever reasons. On the other spectrum, you have players like Bruno who is never short of confidence no matter the criticism or manager instructions.

Looking at our first eleven, we have quite a few like Martinez, Varane, Case, Bruno and maybe Dalot who always have that self belief when things are not going their way to ride out any bad form. Not sure about Onana or Mount. On the sub bench, probably Garnacho and that's it.
 
Scandi Red said:
Looking at some of the mentions so far: it's possible to not be very good at football without being mentally weak. Just saying...
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:lol: So true!

These type of threads always turn into a "who don't you like" discussion, regardless of the topic of discussion.
 
Not at United anymore, but De Gea would sometimes suffer from a lack of it after a shaky start.
 
This is too complex of an issue to just name people individually...because there is so much more than individual mental performance when playing a team sport.

Didn't ETH bring a team with him to help with this?
 
Scandi Red said:
Looking at some of the mentions so far: it's possible to not be very good at football without being mentally weak. Just saying...
Click to expand...
It's like fans would always rather attribute failure to some abstract concept rather than just accept that quality and concrete competence is usually the main decidor. Arsenal didn't lose the league to City because they had a couple of their rejects and a bunch youngsters who had their first go at a title race coming from a 5th place finish, nah can't be! It must be some psychological shortcoming. I guess it gives people the comfy feeling that everything can work out as long as we have the right mindset which is only part of the formula and can never make up for lack of quality. We are nowhere near knowing how pyschological strong or fragile we are, we need to be good first at passing, moving, creating, defending and all other technical aspects. Once we're there and show we can do it consistently, then mentality come in to play when we play the title deciders and Cup finals on an equal technical footing with whoever is the opponent.
 
Wan Bissaka does best vs the best lw which play for top clubs not relegation teams - just proof that all these mental estimations are guess works
 
Hey, I have two self-awarded degrees in armchair psychology and I would say Sancho and Martial are the two obvious candidates. They seem to be affected by external factors.
We have a bunch of confidence players in Rashford and Shaw, who have the talent, but can go down when a bad run of games happens.
 
Martial seems sad most of the times, and he's probably (rightly) too afraid of getting injured to actually put in a serious effort anymore.

Sancho seems quite fragile, and wasn't it widely speculated that his absence was in part due to mental issues?

Maguire seems shook most of the time - probably rightly so. Should never have been signed for that amount, let alone be made captain right away. Most people would probably cope badly with being a living football meme.

Rashford seems to switches of too much during matches, and his massive ups and downs in form could probably be mental as well.

Shaw has to be mentioned as well. Quite big ups and downs, and he seems to be very dependent on the backing of the manager. I know that the Mourinho situation was a grim case, but not all professionals would be that affected by bad man managing.
 
If we're being honest, Bruno and Shaw are probably the most prone to losing their heads in difficult games, which is unfortunate as they're arguably our two best footballers.
 
Witchking said:
Feels like Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Lindelof, Dalot and Rashford are fair weather players and who melt at places like anfield or in the big games in the last couple of seasons if we go behind.

Letting city, Liverpool score 5,6,7 goals is a mental thing. Being able to to stop them and fight back, bring yourself in the back in the game is a big thing to have and I feel these players do not have it.

I am guessing the Onana will help the defense in with this bit.
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I think Dalot has improved under Ten Hag. He brings intensity which he had lacked before. Shaw and Rashford are up and down, Shaw needs competition to light a fire, while Rashford can at times seem like he doesn't care to try. I'm not sure that's mental fortitude however, as that would be pretty hard to infer. You can see it with Maguire though, when a mistake happens he begins to brick himself. As far as effort goes though, that's pretty easy to tell. We still have a fair few players who will decide game by game when they feel like putting in effort. Sancho, Martial, Rashford etc.
 
Onana Martinez Casemiro (hopefully) Hojland will be the mentally tough spine we have been lacking. Hopefully that will raise the mental level of players like Rashford, Sancho, Martial, Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Eriksen. Mount is an interesting one, seems like he was a leader at Chelsea and if he can be the same for us it will serve us really well.
 
You don't reach the level of playing for Manchester United without a seriously high degree of mental strength. Talent alone doesn't get you there.
 
Scandi Red said:
Looking at some of the mentions so far: it's possible to not be very good at football without being mentally weak. Just saying...
Click to expand...

Not caring if your team loses thus not over commiting in these situations and accepting the loss etc is even though it seems as mentally weak, I believe is an attitude of mentally strong characters just with different priorities. Players like Shaw, Rashford are in this brackett imo.
 
Loony BoB said:
People saying McTominay is mentally weak - I'd love to hear their reasoning for it. He's one of the more mentally strong players in our squad as far as I'm aware. Gets flack from fans and doesn't get impacted by it in his performances or (as far as I can tell) his overall attitude. He's in the faces of our opponents and is verbal towards the players he plays with, and if he goes without minutes he still comes back fighting.

Sancho could perhaps be seen as mentally weak by some, but perhaps our playstyle just really doesn't suit him because he never had issues at Dortmund. Still, the fact that the manager mentioned it is telling. Shaw has also been mentioned in the past for his mentality, but more so that he struggles mentally when he's not being challenged -whenever a challenge comes up he seems to step up, hence whenever a new LB is brought in he seems to come out stronger for it.

Honestly, I agree with those that said that it's simply not something we can really know for sure.
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McT is a' front-up' player, basically someone who is performatively 'energetic' and 'aggressive' and hence 'brave' in terms of defending or in attacking loose balls. As people have mentioned, however, he's not particularly brave in showing for the ball or ( usually) in being progressive with it... He's brave in the way your average lower-tier of the PL English midfielder has been traditionally brave -not taking responsibility with the ball but a lot of pashun (albeit in his case witha pretty decent shot and heading ability)..
 
Desert Eagle said:
Onana Martinez Casemiro (hopefully) Hojland will be the mentally tough spine we have been lacking. Hopefully that will raise the mental level of players like Rashford, Sancho, Martial, Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Eriksen. Mount is an interesting one, seems like he was a leader at Chelsea and if he can be the same for us it will serve us really well.
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Love child of Haaland and Højlund playing for United in the future? :drool:
 
Most Fragile? Probably Sancho? Didn't he took few months off last season because he wasn't in right frame of mind to play or something?

Most emotionaly unstable? I'd say Bruno. At times he acts very tough like a real leader, but at times he also looks like a losing cannon moaning at his teammates at every moves and holding his arms up in frustration for no good reason.

Most up and downs? Probably Rashford. In a space of past 3 years he went from being very good to totally hopeless, and then suddenly back to his absolute best form out of nowhere.

Maguire is a strange case as he looks so clueless but at the same time has so much belief in himself. He has the tendency to make errors after errors followed by errors but still have that feeling good factor on his own self.

Linedelof doesn't look like player full of confidence, especially after he made some mistake he looks abit lost.
 
Hard to say but of I had to
Sancho
Van de beek
Lindelof (improving though)
 
Rashford for sure as evidenced two seasons ago. Just didn’t show up at all and walked around the pitch all season.
 
Could just as easily rename this thread "criticise players you don't like, using what you imagine their personality to be as an excuse".
 
Baxquux said:
McT is a' front-up' player, basically someone who is performatively 'energetic' and 'aggressive' and hence 'brave' in terms of defending or in attacking loose balls. As people have mentioned, however, he's not particularly brave in showing for the ball or ( usually) in being progressive with it... He's brave in the way your average lower-tier of the PL English midfielder has been traditionally brave -not taking responsibility with the ball but a lot of pashun (albeit in his case witha pretty decent shot and heading ability)..
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I generally think of mental strength not as in "how I move the ball" but "how willing I am to keep pushing myself and those around me when the going gets tough".
 
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