100%. Even now, all the uncertainty over the ownership situation is clearly filtering down, and they won’t do anything about the manager situation anyway because all they care about is securing their 1.25 billion.It's the GLAZERS.
Do they need to be world beaters to not lose 3-0 at home to Bournemouth? Do they need to be world beaters to not finish bottom of a Champions League group containing Copenhagen? They’re not good enough to win the league, including a large number of his own signings, but they’re more than good enough to not be in the state we’re currently in. The players aren’t choosing to play without a midfield.Yeah these players would be world beaters if only we could get in a different manager.
Don't get me wrong, if Utd were currently in 3rd or 4th spot and pundits/fans were bemoaning the fact we weren't challenging for the title then I'd be using all the same arguments as you to defend the manager.Nobody is saying it’s hopeless. But the point is nicely summarised by yourself in the bolded.
The same bunch of “clowns” hiring managers are the same bunch of clowns making decisions in every other aspect of the club. They can’t even just sell the club without a big, drawn out fiasco.
I don’t think anyone is ?How can anyone who has followed United for the last 10 years claim that our struggles are almost exclusively the fault of the manager? Of course the manager must take a good part of the blame, but he's just one piece of the puzzle.
But it's coming after winning 13 out of 21 leagues previously, after never being worse than 3rd for two decades. If Real Madrid finished 4th even one season and got knocked out of the CL group stage, there would be crisis stations and white hankies, much worse than has been at United.The way some people here talk about United, you'd think the club's had multiple relegations in the last decade. The last league finishes are 3rd, 6th, 2nd, and 3rd. The squad is not enough good to compete for the major trophies (PL, CL) but it's not a dumpster fire.
Exactly, look at Liverpool. They went through countless managers before Klopp, they didn’t hold on to Rodgers and tell the board to let him be ruthless, they took the opportunity to get a better manager and if one becomes available which they will we need to do the same.Why is so crazy to think that you can't hire five bad managers in a row? What have they accomplished since then? United seem to be the only team where the owners can be used as a running excuse regardless of what you see on the pitch.
He could have just put all that into the 2 or 3 existing ETH threads but it wouldn't have got much attention so obviously a new thread was the way to go.Feels like this doesn't need to be a thread
The owners are bad, but the way people talk about them, you think they have the club in administration and aren't allowing transfers. If we can admit that Klopp or Pep would do much better in the current setup then we have to admit the quality of the manager can be improved.Exactly, look at Liverpool. They went through countless managers before Klopp, they didn’t hold on to Rodgers and tell the board to let him be ruthless, they took the opportunity to get a better manager and if one becomes available which they will we need to do the same.
Don't get me wrong, I think United fans have plenty to be upset about.But it's coming after winning 13 out of 21 leagues previously, after never being worse than 3rd for two decades. If Real Madrid finished 4th even one season and got knocked out of the CL group stage, there would be crisis stations and white hankies, much worse than has been at United.
Combination of both. Tactically we are terrible, but we also have a mix of newer players that aren’t good enough and veterans that are mentally weak.Do they need to be world beaters to not lose 3-0 at home to Bournemouth? Do they need to be world beaters to not finish bottom of a Champions League group containing Copenhagen? They’re not good enough to win the league, including a large number of his own signings, but they’re more than good enough to not be in the state we’re currently in. The players aren’t choosing to play without a midfield.
He is responsible for those newer players being here. It’s also become fairly clear his man management is abysmal. None of this absolves players of their responsibility but he’s the manager. He can’t take credit for winning and not take blame for losing. It’s no surprise our form plummeted when Casemiro and Rashford’s did.Combination of both. Tactically we are terrible, but we also have a mix of newer players that aren’t good enough and veterans that are mentally weak.
I’m not defending him. He’s got his flaws and he’s made plenty of mistakes, as they all did. All of our managers have deserved to go when they did, because that’s how culpability in football generally goes. But winning is a club effort, and we are very, very poor behind the scenes. That’s what a disinterested ownership that doesn’t actually care gets you.Don't get me wrong, if Utd were currently in 3rd or 4th spot and pundits/fans were bemoaning the fact we weren't challenging for the title then I'd be using all the same arguments as you to defend the manager.
In fact, I have started threads previously going back to Jose and OGS, defending them, talking about chaos at Board level, poor recruitment, lack of autonomy etc...
The problem for EtH in my view is two-fold...
1) He's not dealing with Ed Woodward and has a far greater degree of autonomy RE : players in and players out than Jose and OGS ever had. He's seen off Ronaldo and DDG on free transfers, he's frozen out Sancho and Varane. All of the signings have his influence written all over them. He can't say he hasn't been backed or supported.
2) His results haven't even been as good as Jose's or OGS' results. The media effectively did for those two by whipping the fans into title-frenzy after the two 2nd place finishes. The reality is, in an era when we have a cheat code team facing 115 charges winning the title year-in, year-out, 2nd might be as good as a title-win. Jose said as much. I defended him because I exactly know what he meant. Ole finished 2nd and only lost a Europa League final on penalties. I defended him because I knew the challenges he faced.
EtH is not being asked to win a title. He's being asked to show that he has a plan, show signs of progression in that plan on the pitch and not keep being embarrassed by Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth. He's failing on all three fronts - likeable bloke though he undoubtedly is.
I agree completely. It’s why I’m in the camp of being full on fire sale at this point. I could deal with a couple hundred of rocky seasons with a full on rebuild of new promising young players and manager under Ratcliffe coming in. Anything to break the cycle with the same faces and BS of the past decade at this point.He is responsible for those newer players being here. It’s also become fairly clear his man management is abysmal. None of this absolves players of their responsibility but he’s the manager. He can’t take credit for winning and not take blame for losing. It’s no surprise our form plummeted when Casemiro and Rashford’s did.
The fact we need to replace so many is part of the reason the manager needs to go. He’s a terrible judge of talent.I agree completely. It’s why I’m in the camp of being full on fire sale at this point. I could deal with a couple hundred of rocky seasons with a full on rebuild of new promising young players and manager under Ratcliffe coming in. Anything to break the cycle with the same faces and BS of the past decade at this point.
Exactly!Tactics, formations, playing players out of position, terrible signings, falling out with senior players...
...making substitutions too late, overplaying players, doesn't inspire the team during matches.
Just not good enough.
Yeah there’s truth in that, but surely any manager will want to appraise players himself. It’s been well mentioned in this forum about how hard it is to get rid of players at Utd and Antony Martial is the dictionary definition of that"It's the players" isn't an excuse and actually makes the manager look even worse. Let's not forget ETH's predecessor wanted to give him a blunt briefing on the state of the squad, but instead ETH decided to ignore him and give the players yet another clean slate.
/threadIt's....everything.
Players aren't good enough.
Manager isn't good enough.
Ultimately the people that oversee what's going on, and form a structure by which players/managers are employed, aren't good enough. And they're the ones that are proving difficult to shift.
What is ETH good at?Given we've had multiple managers all with the same rubbish players, board & staff and ALL saying the same thing about the state of the club (including ex players) I don't think we should continue pointing fingers at the manager.
Some things are on Ten Hag, but given this is not a new problem and has been evident for years putting it solely on him is unfair. These players want cuddled and told they are great. Their ego is too big and the club structure keeps allowing it to happen.
Nothing will change, until there are drastic changes above.
Ten Hag would had been sacked already in Real Madrid so I get the frustration when the performances aren't improving and the team isn't competing for the major trophies.But it's coming after winning 13 out of 21 leagues previously, after never being worse than 3rd for two decades. If Real Madrid finished 4th even one season and got knocked out of the CL group stage, there would be crisis stations and white hankies, much worse than has been at United.
He would have been sacked already at most big clubs in Europe. It's a long-term legacy of Ferguson's unique story of escaping the sack and setting up a dynasty, and then Ferguson saying you must back the manager when he left, that United are very patient with managers. But every case is different, there is no guarantee it will get any better with patience.Ten Hag would had been sacked already in Real Madrid so I get the frustration when the performances aren't improving and the team isn't competing for the major trophies.
