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Auction Draft SF : 2mufc/Gio vs. Mjj

Who will win this match


  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .

Indnyc

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2mufc/Gio ----------------------------vs. --------------------------------MJJ

Vs.


Tactics 2Mufc/Gio

For this game Francesco Toldo returns in goal, a reliable and consistent keeper and one of the best goalkeepers of his generation. At the back the greatest defender of all time Franz Beckenbauer marshals the defence and provides impeccable reading of the game and defensive nous; he will also provide world class distribution from the back. Next to him is Djalma who was a fantastic defender, he will provide cover while Kaiser ventures forward, Djalma will also provide support for Lato ahead of him. Partnering Kaiser is Real Madrid legend Santamaria he will be the stopper in the partnership providing world class defensive cover. At left back is Briegel bustling with energy and physicality able to provide attacking threat as well as top class defensive cover, with Rummenigge on the right Briegel with his physical attributes is tailor made to match up with Kalle's physicality and speed.

In midfield, 2 time world cup winner Zito is tasked with screening the defence and providing precise distribution from deep midfield positions, he is also a fantastic ball winner able to break up opposition attacks and setup quick counters. We have boosted our midfield by bringing in Brazilian master Falcao in central midfield and has the box to box role and provides additional energy and bite in the midfield area as well as impeccable playmaking skills from deeper positions. In front of these two is the greatest no.10 of all time Maradona he will be at the centre of the team in the attacking phase with the play running through him, he will be devastating making runs from deep positions and also through his immense passing feeding the front 3.

In attack Muller the most lethal finisher of all time spearheads the attack, he will be ready waiting to pounce from service from Maradona and wide areas. Muller has everything required to thrive with Maradona at unparalleled levels — ultra productive so he can make the most of Maradona's creative skillset, unselfish and wouldn't mind doing some dirty work through the central channels, not a big dribbler so there will be no overlap between them, perfected the art of losing his marker so he could get on the end of Maradona's crosses, and tactically intelligent to boot. At RW is Polish legend Lato known for his pace and dribbling ability, he will be a menace taking on the opposition full back. We have reinforced the team by bringing in United legend Ryan Giggs on the left, his hard working and selfless game is tailor made to work with Muller and Maradona, furthermore he also has his own x-factor being able to score and create too.

Overall the team is setup with the 3 best players in defence, midfield and attack to thrive and has been significantly upgraded in midfield with the inclusion of Falcao; the team is setup to play direct football with quick transitions and also built on solid foundation at the back able to soak up pressure when required. The players around Maradona (the heartbeat of the attack) all have the attributes to share a special chemistry and provide a platform for him to dominate the game. Furthermore, it is also difficult to envision a better spine in the draft (Beckenbauer-Maradona-Muller) and on an individual level all three are loaded with the individual ability to make a difference in a close match up and win the game for us.

Tactics MJJ

The formation graphic is pretty self explanatory, all of the players are playing in positions they are comfortable in and are of high quality. I believe my team has a blend of power, speed and with one of the best attacking trio in the draft in the King with the dagger in one hand and the needle in the other.

The team fully utilises the attacking powers of Pele by partnering him with two of the best wing-forwards who played in fluid systems and are used to interchanging during the course of the match. Pele can play either as a creator or a finisher to devastating effect depending on how the match goes.

The midfield is a thing of beauty, the raw destructiveness and power of Sammer and Matthaus partnered with the work-rate of Lerby. Against that trio rather than trying to control the midfield, its more of a case of trying to survive without getting destroyed.

Keeping in touch with drafting footballers who are good on the ball and warriors off the ball, I have two of the best manchester united centrebacks of all time in McGrath and Stam guarding the goal with panucci and demyanenko helping the attack and the defense equally.

Addressing a specific comment regarding the lack of creativity in midfield.

  • Pele, el rei, the king. Pele is the best of all time when it comes to the final third, that means not just scoring but also the vision and execution to play the killer pass. His dribbling alone will allow him to open so many defenders, a gem for some of our older posters.
  • Netto is a unique player, a box to box controlling playmaker. Netto while being excellent defensively will look to keep the ball forward and has the excellent vision to release the kalle, stoickhov and pele.
“Igor Netto was definitely a player ahead of his time,” Joel Amorim, Spartak Moscow expert at Russian Football News says. “He was too talented to play on the left side of the defence or even as a wide midfielder, but he still turned out to be one of the most brilliant playmakers of all-time. He had a golden left foot and you still cannot find many players these days with his passing skills and incredible vision.”
Apart from his great technical abilities, Igor Netto was furthermore able to read the game like few others, which allowed him to split countless opposing defences from each other with his vision and passing skills. Much like the famous Spartak playing style, Netto was no fan of long passes, and so he constantly pushed his teammates to keep the ball on the ground and to practice a game of short passing and possession. These skills made him a nightmare for opponents as well as one of the greatest pleasures for spectators.
It's nice to see Netto being included in a possession based lineup. The old Spartak possession style(now long abandoned) never gained the same level of international appreciation as what Dynamo Kiev were doing tactically, the 70s-90s teams that were competing in European competition usually had a few too many other issues that stopped them being successful enough to draw attention, not least a lack of regard for defensive side of things. Yet looking purely from a tactical perspective at their style when on the ball, it was very sophisticated, forward thinking stuff that had the majority of components we see in modern possession teams being performed to a high standard, without getting too bogged down in slow buildup. The Netto led teams of the 50s were the genesis of that, but were more well rounded(relative to the era) and had a lot more firepower than any of the later sides, it would have been interesting to see them in the early European cups.
  • Matthaus at Inter transformed his game from being a box to box to a creative, athletic midfielder. He averaged a assist every four games in 1989 season and serena went from scoring 9 goals to winning Capocannoniere with 22 goals.
Why I will win:
  • How do you stop Maradona? At his peak, Maradona was near impossible to stop. Only one man in history has successfully stopped the attacking juggernaut, a man he himself acknowleged as his greatest rival. Lothar Matthaus. Here he has help from the Red Baron, Iron Matthais and Igor Netto. If you had to pick a three man unit to stop Maradona, these three would rank pretty
  • Can zito handle Pele by himself? Falcao was mainly an attacking box to box, and will have his hands full here trying to supply creativity from deep. That leaves zito who will be tasked to stop Pele. While a legend, I don't think he is strong enough defensively for the task that awaits him here.
  • Having both stoickhov and kalle central will stop beckenbauer from stepping out of defense and exerting his influence in midfield. The time he does step out, he will only leave behind Santamaria as the last shield which brings me to my next point.
  • Santamaria was not a very good defender. But don't just take my word for here, draft legend @Gio and one of the most knowledgeable players here ranks him below Godin. Now imagine somebody worse than Godin or even Godin himself against my attack. It's only ending one way right? Do you really want an error prone CB covering for Beckenbauer's forward forages? Specially with both kalle and stoickhov playing as strikers and ready to pounce on any mistakes.
Don Alfredo said:
Yeah there was one poster who said he is better than Santamaria. I am not even sure if Godin is better than Vidic, whose reputation seems to be at an All-Time low after all those imaginery beatings he took from the likes of Ronaldo and Romario.:nervous::lol:
Gio said:
I’d vouch for that. Take any random sample of footage of Santamaria or Godin and it’s the former who is most likely to be at fault for goals conceded. Other factors to consider in terms of overall influence, but only one winner I can see in defensive nous and organisational ability.
Gio said:
Happy to defer to people who have watched him more than I have done, but looking at the 1954 tournament, he's at fault for a lot of goals Uruguay concede. Definitely think his reputation has been elevated based on what he did as part of that great Real team, perhaps like an early-day equivalent Ramos or Pique - i.e. someone who was still influential, was their team's best defender, contributed well to the style of play, but was too error-prone to really stand comparison with the finest of all time.
 

MJJ

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Quick point before I have to go, the opposition expecting a 4 2 3 1 set up works in my favour as the change to a diamond will negate all tactical training and game plan which might be enough to edge this close game.
 

Physiocrat

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@MJJ Why is Panucci at LB and Demyanenko at RB? The latter can play both sides but I never remember Panucci playing in an attacking left-back position.

@2mufc0 @Gio Why did you buy Giggs and not a more orthodox RW? It would seem more natural for an orthodox winger to be ahead of Djalma, with Briegel overlapping more of a wide-forward
 

MJJ

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@MJJ Why is Panucci at LB and Demyanenko at RB? The latter can play both sides but I never remember Panucci playing in an attacking left-back position.

@2mufc0 @Gio Why did you buy Giggs and not a more orthodox RW? It would seem more natural for an orthodox winger to be ahead of Djalma, with Briegel overlapping more of a wide-forward
Panucci can play on both sides as well, transfermarket, pes, whoscored even wiki all states he was equally as good as left back as at right back. wanted him on the left as I expect demyanenko to deal with the briegel/Giggs tandem better while panucci is good enough to contain lato alone as Santos isnt going forward too much.
 

Physiocrat

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Panucci can play on both sides as well, transfermarket, pes, whoscored even wiki all states he was equally as good as left back as at right back. wanted him on the left as I expect demyanenko to deal with the briegel/Giggs tandem better while panucci is good enough to contain lato alone as Santos isnt going forward too much.
I've had a look at a few of the sites and none state he played attacking left back. Wiki says he played wing-back but didn't say which side.

Panucci against a cutting in Lato does make sense however
 

MJJ

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I've had a look at a few of the sites and none state he played attacking left back. Wiki says he played wing-back but didn't say which side.

Panucci against a cutting in Lato does make sense however
I will find some matches for you when I get home.

The main game plan is to ensure beckenbauer doesn't step up into midfield and rely on matthaus and sammer to stop Maradona. I think the tactics allow for the first specially with an error prone santamaria as a cover and matthaus record against Maradona speaks for itself.

On the other hand, I dont think my opponent has adequately prepared to stop pele who will run riot here.
 

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1. Scored the first goal (open play, cross from the right wing, he heads in at the far post)
2. Pre assist from his attacking on the left that leads to the 4th goal

Also, is one of the highest goal scoring Serie A defenders. Scored close to 50 Serie A goals

@Physiocrat
 

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@MJJ Why is Panucci at LB and Demyanenko at RB? The latter can play both sides but I never remember Panucci playing in an attacking left-back position.

@2mufc0 @Gio Why did you buy Giggs and not a more orthodox RW? It would seem more natural for an orthodox winger to be ahead of Djalma, with Briegel overlapping more of a wide-forward
Lato holds the width very well though. As a natural wide-forward on his right foot, he often used that searing pace to go around the outside of his full-back. That's where he differs from your more classic in-cutting wide-forward who would create space for an overlapping full-back. For Poland Lato's pace - apparently not much above 10s for the 100m - was a hell of a weapon to latch onto Deyna's through balls or get on the back post of Gadocha's more traditional wingmanship on the other side. Hoping we can replicate some of that here against Panucci, but ramped up somewhat with Maradona releasing him and Giggs working the left flank.

An example of going around the outside against Brazil in the World Cup:

 
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MJJ

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Lato holds the width very well though. As a natural wide-forward on his right foot, he often used that searing pace to go around the outside of his full-back. That's where he differs from your more classic in-cutting wide-forward who would create space for an overlapping full-back. For Poland Lato's pace - apparently not much above 10s for the 100m - was a hell of a weapon to latch onto Deyna's through balls or get on the back post of Gadocha's more traditional wingmanship on the other side. Hoping we can replicate some of that here against Panucci, but ramped up somewhat with Maradona releasing him and Giggs working the left flank.

An example of going around the outside against Brazil in the World Cup:

The main reason of playing the diamond was to do exactly that i.e. stifle Maradona from the ball. That means the pressure will be on your wingers to move inwards to win the ball here as otherwise they will be on the fringes the whole game.

If beckenbauer steps in midfield, kalle and stoickhov will destroy santamaria. If he doesn't, pele will run the game here.
 

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@Gio how do you see santamaria covering for beckenbauer given his error prone nature.
Rather well to be honest. He's good enough - I rate him in the same tier as the other top South American centre-backs (see below). He has shown his worth in attack-minded teams such as the European Cup serial winners Real where he was often left man-for-man - or worse - at the back. And with Beckenbauer, Djalma and Briegel all around, and tucking in against a narrow formation, it's the makings of a solid defensive line. As much as I rate your duo, it's quite clear who has the strongest central defensive partnership on the park.

Yeah. We were trying to get some sort of alignment across the common perception of the best South American defenders of all time. Universally Figueroa is regarded the highest - he ticks all the boxes really in terms of quality of performance - then Passarella/Nasazzi/Chumpitaz/Santamaria/Da Guia/Godin. I think each of Nasazzi, Santamaria and Da Guia suffer from playing in a different era when they were more exposed and probably lack the footage to back up their quality in the way that the post-70s boys do. Assuming all eras are equal then they should each be £100m+ in the valuation, but in valuing based on vote worthiness, they take a small hit. To me those 7 CBs are clearly the best and there's a gap to the next tier. And delighted to see you've put Godin in there. We've got a modern tendency not to put any of the more recent defenders into these types of discussions, but Godin's CV over the last decade is sensational.
 

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Rather well to be honest. He's good enough - I rate him in the same tier as the other top South American centre-backs (see below). He has shown his worth in attack-minded teams such as the European Cup serial winners Real where he was often left man-for-man - or worse - at the back. And with Beckenbauer, Djalma and Briegel all around, and tucking in against a narrow formation, it's the makings of a solid defensive line. As much as I rate your duo, it's quite clear who has the strongest central defensive partnership on the park.
I wouldn't fancy Godin here to cover for McGrath against the likes of kalle and stoickhov but a defender worse than him should do well? He was shit in the 7-3 final that real won, I actually agree with your assessment that he is somebody like Ramos or pique for the current barca side. Neither of whom you would pick in an all time draft much less against my attack.

Regarding the latter statement, can you confirm if beckenbauer is playing as a libero or a traditional defender? And how are you dealing with pele.
 

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with Santamaria he's rated amongst the top 5 CB from South America, I've only seen these opinions that he's a liability by a few on the caf, everywhere else he's well regarded. He may have made mistakes in the 2 games you have watched but I've yet to find a defender who never made errors in their careers. As Gio pointed out he was a key member of one of the greatest club teams of all time.

As for MJJ system the full backs in a diamond formation are critical as they are the primary width providers, here the opposition doesn't have the greatest full backs and secondly are playing on the wrong sides. Maybe they were versatile and can do a job but just merely doing a job isn't good enough here.

Secondly while Mathaus is tailor made for a diamond formation I'm not sure Netto was as dynamic. Maybe some more knowledgeable posters on Russian football can verify?

Thirdly, MJJ has sold Lothar to stop Maradona but in this formation he will lose his influence going forward as a result and secondly it makes Sammer redundant in that DM role and throws the whole midfield off balance.
 

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with Santamaria he's rated amongst the top 5 CB from South America, I've only seen these opinions that he's a liability by a few on the caf, everywhere else he's well regarded. He may have made mistakes in the 2 games you have watched but I've yet to find a defender who never made errors in their careers. As Gio pointed out he was a key member of one of the greatest club teams of all time.

As for MJJ system the full backs in a diamond formation are critical as they are the primary width providers, here the opposition doesn't have the greatest full backs and secondly are playing on the wrong sides. Maybe they were versatile and can do a job but just merely doing a job isn't good enough here.

Secondly while Mathaus is tailor made for a diamond formation I'm not sure Netto was as dynamic. Maybe some more knowledgeable posters on Russian football can verify?

Thirdly, MJJ has sold Lothar to stop Maradona but in this formation he will lose his influence going forward as a result and secondly it makes Sammer redundant in that DM role and throws the whole midfield off balance.
Both of them should be able to handle the winger they are up against, specially since both your fullbacks are tucking in.

As gio pointed out he is more equivalent to Ramos or pique and was an error prone defender. Not somebody who you want to cover for beckenbauer. Can you please confirm how you are using him btw and who is stopping pele?

@harms can confirm that netto is pretty well suited to the role I have here considering he started off as a left fullback.

I have said that the midfield is suited to stop Maradona not just lothar.
 

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Secondly while Mathaus is tailor made for a diamond formation I'm not sure Netto was as dynamic. Maybe some more knowledgeable posters on Russian football can verify?
@harms can confirm that netto is pretty well suited to the role I have here considering he started off as a left fullback.
It's the perfect fit for him.
 

Physiocrat

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Whilst MJJ has moved more towards a diamond I don't think with his front three it operates much differently than a 433 diamond. The big question is do Kalle and Stoichkov defend out wide out of possession (like Ole does) or do they keep their central position?
 

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Whilst MJJ has moved more towards a diamond I don't think with his front three it operates much differently than a 433 diamond. The big question is do Kalle and Stoichkov defend out wide out of possession (like Ole does) or do they keep their central position?
Would it matter? Gio has confirmed that both briegel and Santos will be tucking in which is playing right in my hands.
 

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Really struggling to see how 2mugio are going to score here, both the fullbacks are tucked in. If Beckenbauer joins midfield, it leaves kalle and stoickhov against briegel/santamaria/santos which works in my favour. If he doesn't, that leaves pele with ample time on his hand to pick his poison. The Op shows what he did the last time he was up against beckenbauer.

On the other hand, Maradona will be marked all the time and will have a tough time beating sammer and matthaus/netto. Muller will be starved of service and giggs doesn't fit into a 4-3-3 formation. One advantage which they might have had was the fullbacks overlapping which is not happening here.
 

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Giggs is capable of roasting both of those out of position full backs and so is Lato, Djalma is naturally the more defensive full back but Briegel was known for his work rate up and down the wing.

So MJJ plan for Maradona is to triple team him, Falcao will love the freedom.
 

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Just look at the final minutes of that video and tell me with a straight face that Santamaria is keeping out kalle,stoickhov and pele.
 

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Giggs is capable of roasting both of those out of position full backs and so is Lato, Djalma is naturally the more defensive full back but Briegel was known for his work rate up and down the wing.

So MJJ plan for Maradona is to triple team him, Falcao will love the freedom.
I still haven't gotten an answer from either you or gio as to how much freedom beckenbauer has to step out and how are you stopping pele?
 

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Secondly while Mathaus is tailor made for a diamond formation I'm not sure Netto was as dynamic. Maybe some more knowledgeable posters on Russian football can verify?
Netto is perfect there. Many people put him at DM which is wrong imo.

Still, Diego, Falcao is brilliant and I think you just slightly have the advantage.
 

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Netto is perfect there. Many people put him at DM which is wrong imo.

Still, Diego, Falcao is brilliant and I think you just slightly have the advantage.
While Diego/Falcao are brilliant in isolation, in terms of what they are up against I don't think it works well for him. Giggs in particular is used to playing a different brand of football than the rest and my set-up is perfectly set up to counter his midfield specially with both of his fullbacks tucking in.
 

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Also, to the best of my knowledge santamaria exclusively playing in a back five, how he is he faring here in a back 1 of sorts?
 

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This game is pretty much a battle of tactics vs shiny names. There is a reason why both 2mufc0 and gio have ignored requests to define beckenbauer's role and how they plan to deal with Pele while glossing over santimaria's defensive errors.
 

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Also, to the best of my knowledge santamaria exclusively playing in a back five, how he is he faring here in a back 1 of sorts?
He was often the sole centre-half at Real. Part of the reason why that team was so good going forward because they could throw everything but the kitchen sink going forward, all the time relying on Santamaria to bail them out more often than not.

Our defence is clearly the strongest on the park and isn't facing a devastating Maradona/Muller axis, nor is it facing a play-stretching pair or wingers who will stretch your backline across the breadth of the field, creating space for Der Bomber to find chances. No amount of mud-slinging at Santamaria will change that. A few other quotes for good measure:

Joga Bonito said:
[Santamaria] who was a great defender on his day and one of the defensive greats. Doesn't quite get his deserved plaudits, but whenever I've watched that Real side play (not that much footage available tbh), he was a class apart.
antohan said:
Yes, didn't you know that already? Anyway, it was different, which is precisely why I discard him and Da Guia as THE partnership although by all accounts they were every bit as good as the other three I mention.

Argies will tell you Passarella was their best ever defender, Brazilians that it was Da Guia, Chileans that it was Figueroa and Uruguayans that it was Nasazzi. Santamaria is the only one of the set who was also hugely successful in Europe and in Spain they would likely say he was better than any of the other four.

So that leaves you with things nicely spread around and with three ball-playing defenders and two stoppers.

As far as South American CBs goes don't look beyond them, complete waste of time. Peruvians would argue Chumpitaz belongs in there but I reckon he just about misses out. Everyone else is out.
 

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He was often the sole centre-half at Real. Part of the reason why that team was so good going forward because they could throw everything but the kitchen sink going forward, all the time relying on Santamaria to bail them out more often than not.

Our defence is clearly the strongest on the park and isn't facing a devastating Maradona/Muller axis, nor is it facing a play-stretching pair or wingers who will stretch your backline across the breadth of the field, creating space for Der Bomber to find chances. No amount of mud-slinging at Santamaria will change that. A few other quotes for good measure:
Erm I mean that might have something to do with having gento, di stefano, puskas, Kopa in attack but I suppose its because they had santamaria at the back.

Mudslinging? I am literally quoting your posts on him. He is either a one man army or worse than Godin. He can't be both at the same time depending on if he is in your team or not.

Anto himself has said there isn't much between godin and santamaria and Godin would get murdered here if you had him. Look at that clip up there and tell me that you trust him to cover for beckenbauer. A defender who you yourself have described as error prone.

Yeah, they are just facing the GOAT Pele.

Can you confirm how much liberty beckenbauer has to step in midfield and who is dealing with Pele here?
 

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Anyway MJJ, that left flank looks stunted to me. No issues with Netto or the midfield, but the last thing a narrow diamond needs is the right-footed centre-half-cum-right-back Panucci on the left. He can do a job there as a solid all-rounder, but he isn't going to comfortably open the play up and stretch the game.

All that means is Djalma Santos can tuck inside, focus on Stoichkov, as can Briegel on the other side (who actually looks like a good fit for Rummenigge in terms of dynamism and power). A tight and narrow back four will severely limit the space afforded to your attack.
Would it matter? Gio has confirmed that both briegel and Santos will be tucking in which is playing right in my hands.
Defend narrow, open up when on the ball. Standard fare, but very much the case in this game.
 

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Anyway MJJ, that left flank looks stunted to me. No issues with Netto or the midfield, but the last thing a narrow diamond needs is the right-footed centre-half-cum-right-back Panucci on the left. He can do a job there as a solid all-rounder, but he isn't going to comfortably open the play up and stretch the game.

All that means is Djalma Santos can tuck inside, focus on Stoichkov, as can Briegel on the other side (who actually looks like a good fit for Rummenigge in terms of dynamism and power). A tight and narrow back four will severely limit the space afforded to your attack.

Defend narrow, open up when on the ball. Standard fare, but very much the case in this game.
Gio beckbauer. Lets talk about him, what is he doing in this game. Also, since you are posting does this mean @2mufc0 is only going to make 3 posts.
 

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He is either a one man army or worse than Godin. He can't be both at the same time
Why? Godin is a fecking brilliant defender. I won't pick Santamaria over him, but he was a one-man army for Real at the back — not always successful though. It's definitely the toughest era for defenders.
 

MJJ

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Why? Godin is a fecking brilliant defender. I won't pick Santamaria over him, but he was a one-man army for Real at the back — not always successful though. It's definitely the toughest era for defenders.
I mean I rate Godin a lot but even he isn't a one man army, no CB is. Not even Desailly. Based on the highlights on the 1960 final, I would say he was an average-ish defender. Somebody like Ramos maybe. Doesn't have the physicality(not his fault) and gets caught ball watching on occasion.

To say part of the reason why a side containing Di Stefano, Gento, Puskas and Kopa was good going forward was due to a CB is a laughable statement specially when you consider that CB error prone.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Would appreciate some feedback from the voters. @oneniltothearsenal @Pat_Mustard
I don't much time until later but in short I feel Lato could easily be the man of the match. I know that might seem odd but I think this is the type of match, where you are focused on stopping Diego and Kaiser that Lato would slip under the radar so to speak and have a performance like some of his World Cup highlights.
 

Zlatan 7

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Voted mjj, seems to have more of a plan and structure to his game and worked on stopping the opposition.

I think mjj would dominate that midfield, would Maradona be dropping deep into the midfield and helping or Beckenbauer stepping up into it leaving one centre back? It’s prime for mjj to expose that centre with Pelé floating in there.

2muGio looks as though most danger would come from wide, Stam will be good enough in the air to win most crosses or if cut back it’s going into a Sammer Matthaus congested centre.

Edit: also, I’ve seen talk of a great spine and although I agree with it I struggle to follow it in drafts. It would mean you could go all out on 3 players to have a great spine and skimp on the rest.
I’d also have a great spine as a centre back, strong midfielder and attacker.
Here Maradona seems to be more attacker than midfielder. A defender and 2 attackers don’t make a spine.
I know a bit pedantic, just my take on it.