Mate if you are gonna post things that were never said don't be expecting a bouquet of roses.
Auction-Trade Madness Draft - R1: 2mufc0/Theon vs Moby
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Is Gullit perfect for this role? He isnt as you cant be a perfect fit in a system you never played in but he can be a damn good fit and IMO he is that.
What you are describing is a classic inside forward role, pretty much a Pedro in Pep's Barca while a IF in total football is nothing like that. People should stop focusing so much on formation pictures and focus on the things players do on the pitch. Gullit would have a free role just like Rensenbrink had in 74' when he played all over the final third and he was doing much more on the ball then just keeping it simple and focusing on runs of the ball which is pretty much the main task of a classic modern inside forward.
So yes, Gullit ball carrying skills will be utilised, his of the ball movement which was top notch will be a great asset just like his goalscoring ability. Not even mentioning his work rate which is perfect for their pressing game.
Completely disagree.
For me a perfect wide forward would be someone like Cristiano, who has insane movement INSIDE THE BOX, exceptional positioning and who is incredibly opportunist in front of goal, while obviously having great finishing.
Gullit is a great player and was really versatile, but there has to be some sort of semblance of what the said player did best at his peak and what made him being regarded as a top player. There's one thing shifting setups based on skillsets but if you have ever watching Michels' Holland and Sacchi's Milan and what Gullit did in that team you'd see where I am coming from.
It would have still worked if they had a proper crosser like Kaltz on the left to utilise Gullit's aerial ability, but apart from that, you are simply wasting his abilities which were best utilised as an attacking midfielder.
Not to mention that he seldom played the left channel and was almost always drifting right when he did go wide.
It's pointless arguing tactics and formations if you are just gonna pull something out of your arse with most of the evidence pointing to the contrary.
For a team so content playing on total football, they have Burgnich at left back and there's no confirmation on what Chagas and Kuznetsov are fitting into it? The likes of Holland and Spain pulled off these setups primarily based on cohesion and chemistry, failing which you cannot really claim to have that on the pitch.
Yes, Cristiano would be and pretty much is a perfect inside forward but not for total football as those 2 roles are very different.
Its a grey area IMO, they are using Gullit in unfamiliar role because his talents fit(obviously you disagree but some dont) into general philosophy of Total Football. Similar to using Beckham as wingback although id argue Gullit would be a much better fit for this role then Becks would be for a wingback - yes he can probably play there, would probably be good at it but it wont be peak Becks.
On Burgnich we agree as i already mentioned earlier in the thread, he is a bad fit.
Rensenbrink and Gullit are really too different players mate.
If we compare Gullit to Rensenbrink and Keizer whom Cruyff played alongside as WF in 4-3-3 the former has a bit different game to say he’d fit like a glove.
I feel Gullit operated better Centrally or on the right wing. He can of course play on the left or even sweeper for that matter being one of the total footballers in history but I’d rather use him in a more familiar role, even if it is just nominally putting him on the right.
To me the Gullit “free” role is him being in the centerpiece - both for the national team and for Milan when van Basten was injured and he was the driving force behind Milan’s attack. Not saying he can’t play in secondary or supportive role, but it’s a bit different in terms of free role in three man attack.
With that being said we’re down to nitpicking really and I like what 2mufc0/Theon have done with their front 6.
Rensenbrink was just used as an example of Total Football IF being very different to a classic IF.
Meh, I completely disagree with you so that’s fine.
Gullit is an absolutely perfect fit for a total football homage side - I don’t think it’s contentious. He’s one of the first players I’d pick for that system as he genuinely is a ‘total footballer’. He could play anywhere, had exceptional movement, tactical intelligence and would contribute to all phases of the game.
The last paragraph is clutching a straws - the entire front six are primed for that system with a huge chunk plucked from the ‘74 squad itself. I’m not sure how flawless you want it in the context of a draft, but it’s certainly a more cohesive side than the mishmash of a 3-5-2 you’ve put together.
We’ve already had @harms confirm that Kuznetsov fits the system, so not sure what the problem there is either.
How are they playing total football with that defense?
You talk about making a cohesive total footballing side and then you suggest Cristiano?
That’s ludicrous. I’d take Gullit every day of the week for this style.
well, if you guys didnt spent the whole day bitching around and insulting each other we would see that debate and answer to that question.
What's there to answer? It's a tactic that requires every single player to contribute.
"We are playing tiki taka guys except our centre back is Des Walker"
On one side you keep taking the credit for that Holland unit and comparing it to them when on the other you have someone who is literally couldn't be further from that tactic.
The entire team is full of tactical loopholes, simply getting votes because of big names.
Based on sweet feckall you will.
The feckin’ resident Soviet football expert on the Caf has said that Kuznetsov suits that style having been schooled under Lobanovskyi.
You’re picking holes where there are none. Literally chucking as much shit as you can and hoping some of it sticks.
In a total footballing side you’d pick Gullit ten times out of ten.
Not to mention Tarcisio Burgnich, the real practitioner of total voetball.
Are you playing partial total football then? Total 5-a-side maybe?
Insightful.Shit didn’t stick, better move to the next thing!
Painful
As opposed to you insulting people for half the dayInsightful.
It’s actually a pity as the thread was excellent and had some quite insightful stuff until you went full say-anything-to-win mode
Aye a real shame that you weren't being allowed to post made up crap, peddle a team devoid of any tactical blueprint and regularly come up with uncooked shite.As opposed to you insulting people for half the day
It’s actually a pity as the thread was excellent and had some quite insightful stuff until you went full say-anything-to-win mode
Do let us know how you are playing total football with Burgnich in defense. I will give you 500 pounds for it.
Devoid of any tactical blueprint
feck me. It’s about five levels above your side in terms of tactical blueprint and cohesiveness. An inconsistent and lazy Hagi is literally the last #10 that you’d stick in a defensive 3-5-2.
As for Burgnich we’ve made a number of posts on that - he’s there as a defensive RB/CB hybrid to free up Koeman. From the start we wanted Koeman as he’s probably the best proponent of Cruyff’s style out there for a defender (as he was for the Dream Team) but at this level he needs support defensively. Burgnich is the best in the business at doing that.
If we were reliant on Burgnich for any element of build up I might see the problem but there’s literally ball-playing quality oozing out of the rest of the side (including from defence with the all-time great defensive passer in Koeman) so I don’t really see the problem.
Total Football (Dutch: totaalvoetbal) is a tactical theory in football in which any outfield player can take over the role of any other player in a team. Hth.Devoid of any tactical blueprint
It’s about five levels above your side in terms of tactical blueprint and cohesiveness. An inconsistent and lazy Hagi is literally the last #10 that you’d stick in a defensive 3-5-2.
As for Burgnich we’ve made a number of posts on that - he’s there as a defensive RB/CB hybrid to free up Koeman. From the start we wanted Koeman as he’s probably the best proponent of Cruyff’s style out there for a defender (as he was for the Dream Team) but at this level he needs support defensively. Burgnich is the best in the business at doing that.
If we were reliant on Burgnich for any element of build up I might see the problem but there’s literally ball-playing quality oozing out of the rest of the side (including from defence with the all-time great defensive passer in Koeman) so I don’t really see the problem.
Aye, Cristiano’s perfect for that ain’t he.
Way better than a Ruud Gullit who could literally play everywhere from striker to sweeper.
Never said anything about Cristiano and total football, do keep up with things that are being actually posted. It's a fantasy game on a forum, apparently some need to lie to get through these.
So how does Burgnich - a man famous for his role as the no nonsense uber-defense stopper in the most defense oriented tactic known to man allows a manager to implement total football?
Agreed with this, I could have seen people having an issue with Gullit in a more standard set-up with a traditional CF, but in here, with Cruyff playing as a false 9, it gives him plenty of room to make his inward runs from the inside left position and with van Hanegem as the LCM, and an attacking wing back in Marinho Chagas providing the width down the left, I can see him being a nice fit all in all, but moving forward I'd say getting someone like Blokhin (whose name was thrown about earlier) and shifting Gullit to his favoured inside right position should be relatively more ideal.
EDIT: In some ways the same thing could be levied at Krol who has never exactly played in a back 5, nor has he ever played as a LCB. He's played as an attacking LB in a back 4 for Ajax and Netherlands, and later on in his career shifted to playing more as a ball playing libero. However, given his playing style, I see him being an excellent fit for the LCB position (not too domineering on the ball, exceptional reading of the game and versatile enough) and I've played him there myself in one of these all time drafts iirc.
As much as the Dutch trio have the edge in midfield, I think that's under-rating Mackay and Blanchflower. Mackay had no problems proving himself in Europe, winning the Cup Winners Cup in 62-63 and taking Spurs to the semi-final in the previous year's European Cup, with a barnstorming man-of-the-match showing against champions elect Benfica. In the context of this match, obviously Neeskens rightly has the greater standing, but he's well suited as an uncompromising and relentless left-half to hold his own.
Hagi's up against Haan to be fair. I can't really be arsed selling him again, but it shouldn't be outwith his ability to influence things. Not contributing a whole lot off the ball, but potentially quite lethal on the break if we look at some of his Romania showings and the Argentina carve-up in particular.
You've put together a lot of strong arguments in the thread, and the defence is solid regardless, but this one I'm not sold so much on. Barcelona played a false 9 with Messi and still scored shedloads of goals. Same for Holland in '74.
Re Burgnich. Yeah I can see the concerns from a build-up perspective, but to be fair almost all defences need some sort of defensive acumen and even Holland '74 had the big and simple Wim Rijsbergen holding the fort.
I meant it very much in the context of this game given the quality and style of defenders they are facing.
Blokhin/Stoichkov is a must in the reinforcements
Come on Marseille.
Blokhin fits the formation and philosophy to a tee. Struggling to think of anyone better for it to be honest.
Yeah it was against @Invictus and I that you played Krol in that system. Deff one of the hardest losses in a draft for me as we had a really strong side IIRC.Aye, it was me who mentioned Blokhin earlier. He does fit like a glove along and was our initial suggestion for that position until money became right (we were 10m off affording a 50m player). There are a few options though so it's probably something to look at in more detail - as you know, there were a number of exceptional Dutch left wide/forwards so its not an upgrade position in short supply.
Yeah I agree on Gullit, he was literally our first name on the team sheet once we managed to secure Neeskens / Cruyff and decided to go the total football route. The positioning towards the left was just a nominal position on the teamsheet, we made it clear throughout the thread and tactics that he'll move across the park (as he often did anyway). We could have pulled him more narrow on the team sheet which would have been more accurate in terms of movement, but would have looked a bit odd. There's not even much point trying to represent the movement of players accurately in a total football system, you'd need a hundred arrows.
good game mate!Keizer over Blohkin.
What he said. Had him in the FM Legends draft (which must be due it's annual update post soon @oneniltothearsenal ?)
I personally like Rensenbrink, but yeah it's something that needs to be looked at.
He's not available... for now, I think. I rated Keizer better.
Oh wow, I didn't even realise he was picked. I'll have a look now at who picked him, that's interesting.
Yeah there's not much in it. Both slightly different players.