Stobzilla
Official Team Perv
James Beattie.
Torres may be a good shout, in that he was class for about 4-5 years then completely dropped off
Aren't both of these shouts a bit unfair?Emmanuel Petit, Thomas Gravesen and Gaizka Mendieta.
Average is a useless word in this context, but Gaizka Mendieta on his own average was a passably promising-ish full back for the Valencia reserves until Claudio Raineri plunged him into midfield at 24. He became like a blend of Modric, Zidane and Cantona in this role for Valencia for three or four years under Raineri and Hector Cuper, UEFA midfielder of the year twice, before delivering consistently and completely none-notable performances for Lazio, Barcelona and Middlesborough the rest of his carreer.
Speaking of Cuper and Ranieri, two coaches that did similar majestic rises above their own averages, Claudio even twice.
agreed. Torres was never average at the start of his career, he was captaining Athletic Madrid at aged 19. Yes he dropped off, but he had the same sort of trajectory as Rooney and doesn’t deserve to be in this thread.Aren't both of these shouts a bit unfair?
Playing at a world class level for 3-5 years isn't anything to be scoffed at. I thought the thread was for players who were world class for a few months or at beast a year to 18 months.
By this definition 90% of top class footballers apply because not many players play at an extremely high level for more than 5 years.
probably unfair yes, and certainly if that were the criteria. Petit and Mendieta probably struck me so much because of their sudden rise more than their fall, but also how they were such different players in their prime. It’s was as if, in addition to being solid players with some strength, they suddenly could do all the things they couldn’t normally do, and to a world class level. Petit went from being a grafter full back with some attacking skills to being a grafter-visionary midfield maestro.Aren't both of these shouts a bit unfair?
Playing at a world class level for 3-5 years isn't anything to be scoffed at. I thought the thread was for players who were world class for a few months or at beast a year to 18 months.
By this definition 90% of top class footballers apply because not many players play at an extremely high level for more than 5 years.
when did he become average?Salah is the obvious shout. Rumours they're trying to offload him. Good luck with that.
Credit to Atletico for recouping their fee and offloading him immediately in the January window, Guangzhou got nothing out of him.Jackson Martinez was pretty good with Porto and useless the minute Atletico purchased him. I think that it happened in the plane to Madrid.
Valderrama was pretty good in France, he is pretty much a legend for Montpellier.Unpopular opinion: most of the stars of World Cup 1990 (Valderrama, Caniggia, A.Pelé, Schillaci,etc).
David Healy
I was randomly thinking about this the other day. I genuinely think we win the league that season if the Eduardo leg break doesn't happen, and in that scenario the team sticks together and who knows what else they could have won. I miss the days when we weren't shite.I would swap Rosicky for Hleb. Hleb was excellent in that season, best dribbler in the league, then he went to Barca and just sort of disappeared.
That Eduardo leg break really did ruin the mentality of that Arsenal team, and potentially led to a decade of general poor performance. Until Feb/March in 08 Arsenal were United's main competitors, and weren't that far removed from the winning mentality they used to have.
Uh, how were they average?Luca Toni
Christian Vieri
Only scored 30+ 3 times? that's what 99% strikers in the World wish they could do - did you expect him to hit those heights again and again also when aging? a striker usually get to thir peak in mid twenties/around 30, which is a natural curve. i.e Drogba, Van Persie, Etc.Not sure if he's been mentioned yet.
Luca Toni - always a pretty decent goalscorer. Top scorer in Italy at 37/38 with Verona.
But he only scored 30+ in a season 3 times in his career. At Bayern he scored 39 in 46 in 2007-2008 never hit those heights before or since.
Maybe they weren’t average but they went through phases of being fantastic then no so much.Uh, how were they average?
You could argue Drogba fits into the same category. Three seasons of 30+ seasons: 2003-04 for Marseille, 2006-07 and 2009-10 at Chelsea. With the exception of those seasons his goalscoring record was average.Not sure if he's been mentioned yet.
Luca Toni - always a pretty decent goalscorer. Top scorer in Italy at 37/38 with Verona.
But he only scored 30+ in a season 3 times in his career. At Bayern he scored 39 in 46 in 2007-2008 never hit those heights before or since.
Van Persie was only world class between 2011 and 2013 too. Obviously that being pretty much the only injury free period of his career had a lot to do with it.Harsh of course, but both Van Der Vaart and Sneijder had only very brief periods in their career where they were world class, both due to the fact that they enjoyed life more than giving everything up for football. Though I think it would be more apt to describe them as world class players who were average for a large part of their career if that makes sense.
I'm also trying to find a period in Dirk Kuyt's career where he was world class, but I'm coming up empty.
Maarten Stekelenburg and Gregory van der Wiel were also amazing in 2010 only to turn to shite soon after. And who can forget Ron Vlaar and Bruno Martins Indi in 2014. I think some on here even wanted Vlaar at United
I'd even lump Diego Milito in there too for the Inter treble season.Uh, how were they average?
Only scored 30+ 3 times? that's what 99% strikers in the World wish they could do - did you expect him to hit those heights again and again also when aging? a striker usually get to thir peak in mid twenties/around 30, which is a natural curve. i.e Drogba, Van Persie, Etc.
I don't agree. And I think your view on candidates for this thread differs quite a lot with mine and the purpose of the thread. By your logic, you could almost throw in Wayne Rooney, as he's not scoring shitloads of goals for Everton and Derby.I'd even lump Diego Milito in there too for the Inter treble season.
A world class striker hits near the 25/30 mark consistantly. Just look at the variations in his goal scoring. He scored over 20 6 times but less than 10 on 11 occasions. Same for Vieri, scored 29 one season, with 25 & 27 his other highest, Di Natale was racking up similar amounts of goals during this period in Serie A. Is he world class?
Now look at genuine world class strikers Shearer, Henry, Shevchenko, Cavani, Ronaldo etc during these guys career spans, consistantly up around 25-30 almost every season for longer periods.
That's the difference between being a world class striker and having one or two really good seasons which is what Vieri and Toni had at the very top.
I don't agree. And I think your view on candidates for this thread differs quite a lot with mine and the purpose of the thread. By your logic, you could almost throw in Wayne Rooney, as he's not scoring shitloads of goals for Everton and Derby.
Anyone who hits 3 seasons being amonst the very best players in the World is no fluke, and can't have been completely average or "go back" to being average - which I think was the purpose of the thread - To spot the flukes, Luca Toni or Vieri were no flukes, they were great strikers, who when they got older, understandably didn't consistently hit 30+ goals
I was looking at out and out strikers and their goalscoring output and relative success in those seasons.Are there any other players who were amazing for a period of time, and then returned back to being completely average?
I'll mention a decent shout again.So who is the actual player that perfectly fits this description?
Average player turning into world class, then back to average.
Doesn't seem like there's any, admittedly it's difficult to think of one.
I still think Lingard is the closest fit to this, is he really that good at youth level or even when he's on loan? doubt it. He worked hard yes, but then that's how average player can be useful to any team. I'm not seeing anything good nor special about him in his first season with us at the start. He quickly improved a lot and turning into a "top player" sort of for maybe less than two years (2016-2017), and hit that highest ceiling of Lingod, his attacking at #10 with that form is just remarkable. World Class is overstretching it though, but then I recall people even compare him with Muller's "space interpretation", that's a unique world class talent, and don't forget Lingard gets so many goals in his purple amazing patch. Many "world class" shots and "world class" dribbles too for someone of his level. Then early 2018, his dive declines are just amazing.. into shittiness level, that is even worse than when he started. At least when he was that young, he had a good excuse of being a young player and also arguably more useful with his energy, ambition and effort.
Di Natale did almost all his impressive goalscoring a few years post-calciopoli, an entirely different era when Serie A was in decline and higher numbers were easier to get. That said he was definitely an excellent goalscorer and well above average as an overall player at that time, just a late developer. Underrated imo.I was looking at out and out strikers and their goalscoring output and relative success in those seasons.
Wayne Rooney only played as a proper striker for one maybe two season and scored over 30 goals twice. The rest of the time he was dropped out wide or a deeper supportive role, which actually makes his goal output even more impressive.
These were good goal scorers who had a couple of great/ world class seasons and then went back to being about average, like I said if Di Natale was banging similar amounts in for Udinese during this time, would you class him as world class or above average?
He's replicating his German league numbers in italian league right now.Might be above average compared to some of these other guys but Mkhitaryan certainly didn't manage to keep up his fantastic statistics for very long.
Surely a joke? One of the best players in the league.Salah is the obvious shout. Rumours they're trying to offload him. Good luck with that.
Asamoah Gyan was still good, he just left Sunderland for UAE in his peak for the money and then scored more than a goal a game in that league.Roque Santa Cruz - Average in germany, amazing one season for Blackburn and then shit for Blackburn, City and everyone else who tried.
Asamoah Gyan was great for Sunderland to begin with, then faded off quickly. Can't say much for how he performed in France prior to that world cup and move to sunderland.