Banning those people doesn't even stop them being racist, it just moves them to somewhere else where they can be racist.Well if we had a league that did ban black players or had rules that discriminated against people I am sure we would see crazy strong reactions.
Sometimes people say stupid things out of hate when watching a game and all we can do is take proper actions against it. Ban people from seeing the games if they say rasist things etc. No more than that is really needed.
And that right there is the problem. Time and education are perhaps the only 2 things that will eventually minimize racism and even then there will be people that will hide behind a keyboard and spread nonsense. But that has little to do with outrage for ESL.Banning those people doesn't even stop them being racist, it just moves them to somewhere else where they can be racist.
Fully agree.As a black man they are two separate issues. I think sometimes people need to stop equating things.
I believe the strength of the response is a good comparison, not necessarily the result (as you rightly pointed out, racism is a wider issue).That's because one issue is not limited to football and the other is. Racism is a social issue, exists everywhere and its not obvious what one can do tangibly beyond denouncing it when it happens. Clubs already take action in various ways when fans are seen spewing hatred. ESL was a football only problem, could have changed the landscape of football in Europe and perhaps even destroyed a lot of clubs. There are tangible things that could be done to stop it from happening, including lawsuits and potential expulsion from FIFA and UEFA (sure that would have been contested but still) and most of all it was limited to a dozen clubs and not widespread.
His overall point is noted, but its not a good comparison IMO.
It’s the lack of the same emotion/reaction from public figures (and people in general) in comparison to this.But the clubs themselves are responsible for this Super League stuff. They can't prevent people from being racist but they can ban them from their stadiums and have the police take over to investigate. Doesn't that already happen?
As in, what must we do then? There's lots of anti-racism campaigning but you can't exactly prevent somebody from deciding "feck it lemme shout this racist shit".
Yeah. The main point being that the ESL was something palpable for almost everyone. Racism is generally a problem that only affects minorities who are by definition a comparatively smaller number of people.As a black man they are two separate issues. I think sometimes people need to stop equating things.
Punishing clubs for the actions of fans would be totally misguided though unless it was proven clubs actually condoned racism. As far as I know, no club in England is going around trying to protect or defend these fans. I do however see the point when players are involved (Luis Suarez comes to mind). I think Liverpool made a mistake and looked stupid trying to defend him. There should have been outrage and maybe he should have been booted from the club if only to set an example. But would we have done that ourselves?I believe the strength of the response is a good comparison, not necessarily the result (as you rightly pointed out, racism is a wider issue).
However, even with the result, I firmly believe a similarly strong response towards the clubs of the offenders or even the social media corporations enabling it (in the case of the ESL, the government got involved, docking points and relegation were mentioned, banning players from the world cup, now they're pushing for resignations, and all the punishments you mentioned were floated) more change would have been effected.
Incidentally, that's just a hypothesis which hasn't been tested as the strength and feeling of the ESL response most definitely hasn't been replicated in the case of racism.
It's unlikely that racism will ever be purged completely from the game, or even humanity. Unless human nature evolves quickly, which it won't. There will always be that side of humanity that naturally hates the other for whatever reason, bit it rational or irrational. And it seems to me that there is a lot of double standards from the so-called anti-racists in this game. On the one hand they are quick to shame people for not being passionate enough about anti-racism as they are, yet they do not drop the BLM kneeling and endorsements after the UK branch started spouting anti-semitism on twitter. Nor do they punish the likes of Darren Bent who was being racist towards Burnley because they are "too white". If a player or a pundit said for example that Arsenal back in the day was too French, or the England squad has "too many black or mixed players" they would be punished and hounded on social media. But Bent can just say that, and not get punished. But like you said, it's a seperate issue. People like Bamford just want to show how virtuous they are and shame others for their lack thereof.And that right there is the problem. Time and education are perhaps the only 2 things that will eventually minimize racism and even then there will be people that will hide behind a keyboard and spread nonsense. But that has little to do with outrage for ESL.
I agree with you to a certain extent but racism within the game needs to be tackled and the media coverage of it compared to theAs a black man they are two separate issues. I think sometimes people need to stop equating things.
It's a comparison of the reactions (not the equating of the issues) which is valid.As a black man they are two separate issues. I think sometimes people need to stop equating things.
It wasn't all 'over a game' though. Every football player, fan, pundit, journalist all spoke out because had it gone ahead football as we know it now would have been dead, this was much larger than 'just a game', hence the words.It’s the lack of the same emotion/reaction from public figures (and people in general) in comparison to this.
Gary was in tears screaming at the camera like a mad man, pundits everywhere in outrage, global news, every paper, over what? A game, one we love, but a game nevertheless.
Can’t you see the point there? It’s just about priorities really.
There wouldn't be football forever if that happened. You aren't going to change human nature.I get his point but it’s not the same, racism is much more complex and deep-rooted. There were clear villains in the ESL issue, people we could stop. I would support halting all of football until racism is fully eliminated, but there would not be another game of football played for another 100 years. But sure I would support that.
True it might be better to talk with them without hating them back. Don't think an outcry would help.Banning those people doesn't even stop them being racist, it just moves them to somewhere else where they can be racist.
I think that's a key point. In total, I think it's combination of this individualized impact of the ESL and its suddenness. As for the latter: racism is a continuous thing, and therefore a single racist incident, or simply the awareness that racism still exist, isn't getting people's emotions up quite as much as the sudden impact of the founding of the ESL. Racism does have similar events, like individual instances of police murdering black people in the US - the George Floyd murder being a clear example of a racist event leading to an enormous and almost global counter-reaction. But this kind of event is rare in general, and I don't think any of them has directly touched on football yet.Yeah. The main point being that the ESL was something palpable for almost everyone. Racism is generally a problem that only affects minorities who are by definition a comparatively smaller number of people.
ThisIt’s the lack of the same emotion/reaction from public figures (and people in general) in comparison to this.
Gary was in tears screaming at the camera like a mad man, pundits everywhere in outrage, global news, every paper, over what? A game, one we love, but a game nevertheless.
Can’t you see the point there? It’s just about priorities really.
You aren't likely going to convince irrational people that they are wrong, or even those who have a rational reason they can prove. Nor can you change human nature.True it might be better to talk with them without hating them back. Don't think an outcry would help.
I think for us not involved in it I think it is best to talk about equal right and equal value about everyone. If we spread those ideas we might be able to challenge rasism.
Although it is about voting for political parties with good values too and lots of people do not do that.
Nationalism is going strong and it goes hand and hand with rasism.
I don't feel like getting into the other things right now, but just to point out that taking a knee in the EPL has not been associated with the BLM campaign anymore since September, and was never associated with the BLM organization (which is a separate thing). (link)It's unlikely that racism will ever be purged completely from the game, or even humanity. Unless human nature evolves quickly, which it won't. There will always be that side of humanity that naturally hates the other for whatever reason, bit it rational or irrational. And it seems to me that there is a lot of double standards from the so-called anti-racists in this game. On the one hand they are quick to shame people for not being passionate enough about anti-racism as they are, yet they do not drop the BLM kneeling and endorsements after the UK branch started spouting anti-semitism on twitter. Nor do they punish the likes of Darren Bent who was being racist towards Burnley because they are "too white". If a player or a pundit said for example that Arsenal back in the day was too French, or the England squad has "too many black or mixed players" they would be punished and hounded on social media. But Bent can just say that, and not get punished. But like you said, it's a seperate issue. People like Bamford just want to show how virtuous they are and shame others for their lack thereof.
It's easy to say that when it's included with their iconography, and it's something their activists do? But as you said, its getting off topic.I don't feel like getting into the other things right now, but just to point out that taking a knee in the EPL has not been associated with the BLM campaign anymore since September, and was never associated with the BLM organization (which is a separate thing). (link)
Well for people that are racists it has strong emotional connections. It is like they hate or disgust people who are different similar to nationalism and hate over different religions. If you can connect to them in an emotional way you might be able to change how people view things. Being calm and collected as well as being open to listen to what they have to say.You aren't likely going to convince irrational people that they are wrong, or even those who have a rational reason they can prove. Nor can you change human nature.
As for nationalism, can you not say the same for racial groups the premier league supports like BLM? The same movement that got in trouble over anti-semetic tweets which caused the likes of Evra to pull his support on air?
This is seperate issue to the ESL, and as I said in a previous post, the norm is outrage over racism, that's why it appears as if the outrage over this was "bigger".
I think the focus here is the mobilization of the fans, pundits, supporter groups, ex players, managers, the royals, govt etc etc in such a short span of time to put enormous pressure on the 'wrong doers'. This has never been the case with racism, it's always # this and # that and slap on the wrist or public statements of guilt or shame that is it. nothing more. There should be consequences of actions of these racist behaviors. Until then it will just be what it is a forever movement which takes 1 step forward and 10 steps behind. So if enough people take appropriate actions this can also be dealt with quite well.That's because one issue is not limited to football and the other is. Racism is a social issue, exists everywhere and its not obvious what one can do tangibly beyond denouncing it when it happens. Clubs already take action in various ways when fans are seen spewing hatred. ESL was a football only problem, could have changed the landscape of football in Europe and perhaps even destroyed a lot of clubs. There are tangible things that could be done to stop it from happening, including lawsuits and potential expulsion from FIFA and UEFA (sure that would have been contested but still) and most of all it was limited to a dozen clubs and not widespread.
His overall point is noted, but its not a good comparison IMO.
I think that's downplaying it completely. I think football did a lot of work to curb it substantially, especially in England, for the last 40 years. Racism is not like the ESL, which is a commercial and economic situation. All it took was for the consumers, the players, the stockholders to say no, and that was it. Racism is a social issue that goes beyond football, it's not going to be stamped out because the free market says so. It's rooted in human nature. The fact it has largely been confined to the odd moment that goes viral every few months in England, is testament to the work that was done to build bridges back in the day. I was a steward at United for three or four seasons, and I never saw fans be racist. Only ever violent.I think the focus here is the mobilization of the fans, pundits, supporter groups, ex players, managers, the royals, govt etc etc in such a short span of time to put enormous pressure on the 'wrong doers'. This has never been the case with racism, it's always # this and # that and slap on the wrist or public statements of guilt or shame that is it. nothing more. There should be consequences of actions of these racist behaviors. Until then it will just be what it is a forever movement which takes 1 step forward and 10 steps behind. So if enough people take appropriate actions this can also be dealt with quite well.
I didn't say it was off-topic, just that I didn't feel like getting into other elements of your post. I do think the BLM thing is an important point, cause it's been used as a distraction. The BLM organization is fairly small and isn't what drives the BLM movement internationally. Most people would never have heard of that organization if others hadn't brought it up. People that are all up in arms about what the BLM organization says and how that tarnishes the EPL's support for the international BLM movement appear to care more about finding fault with the EPL campaign than about the actual subject at hand (fighting racism). I mean, here you are talking about double standards from anti-racists, downplaying racism and its activists. Maybe that isn't your intention, but it is how it comes across. I mean, what does it have to do with Bamford's point?It's easy to say that when it's included with their iconography, and it's something their activists do? But as you said, its getting off topic.
I feel fighting hate with hate is not the best idea. I guess we might cause people going silent cause they do not dare to speak the view they got.Bizzare to compare the two, completely separate issues. Absolutely no relation, we look for racism everywhere don't we...
You ban the fans, they will just be racist outside the stadium or somewhere else. Racism isn't solved when FIFA spends more money on it.Said this in error on another thread earlier this week, but look at how UEFA deal with acts of demonstrable and inveterate racism, where certain clubs are concerned, and the paltry, inconsequential, sanctions they face; but threaten this executive's bottom line with the prospect of a parallel tournament and they bring the full force of their official station to bear and threaten immediate and enduring suspension from all activity within the wider footballing firmament. Just shows how this whole fetid situation exposed not just the raw greed of the "dirty twelve" ( or whatever the chattering classes now want to call them ) but also just how willfully impotent the official organs of footballing governance are unless there's a commercial land-grab afoot, and then it's a matter of uttermost urgency to save the "beautiful game" from the encroaching sprawl of cynical, profit driven, consumerism.
And all this hand-wringing gaining explicit support from FIFA, who they, themselves, sought to initiate a Club Championship of their own design, all running in symmetry with their efforts to enable a smooth transition into the next World Cup: a tournament in the preparation, at least, where the death toll of foreign labourers continues to spiral.
