BBC Sport: La Liga asks Uefa to investigate Man City's financial fair play

VP

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Not really.

Man City : 'Oil backed Arab sheik plaything'
Is often bandied about from rival supporters all the way through to media headlines.

Man Utd : 'debt laden Jewish shopkeepers piggybank'
Isn't mentioned much.

Neither is completely accurate...
Both are seriously out of order...

...But only one of them is the day to day bread and butter of mainstream reportage and comments.

OT:
UEFA (who city fans really don't have much love for), have filed the complaint against City in the bin. If there was anything done by City against the rules of UEFA, it would have been persued. There isn't. PSG on the other hand...clearly have some case to answer to, as UEFA have acted with unexpected alacrity to investigate.
Wait - i'm genuinely curious. How is oil-backed Arab sheikh plaything racist? It's exactly what it is.

Chelsea has often been referred to as a Russian crook's plaything (also true but actually perpetuating a negative stereotype). Won't even bother explaining the Jewish thing.

And can racism even be applied when we're talking about Arab royalty? They preside over some of the most racist societies on Earth, ffs.
 

klayton88

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This will help the hole "the world is against us" mentalitty City fans have.
 

horsechoker

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“PSG and Man City’s funding by state-aid distorts European competitions and creates an inflationary spiral that is irreparably harming the football industry,”

But wasn't Real bailed out by the Spanish state?
 

antihenry

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Around £100 million recouped in sales plus far more players have been sold/released than have come in. Amortisation is your friend on this and incoming transfer fees are amortised over the length of a player's contract. We won't be able to spend that kind of money every summer of course but there shouldn't be any need to as much of the squad re-building is complete.
From transfermarket.co.uk
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-city/transfers/verein/281/saison_id/2017

2017 - Spent 220m, 87m recouped. Net spend - 133m.
2016 - Spent 192m, 32m recouped. Net spend - 160m
2015 - Spent 192m, 61m recouped. Net spend - 131m
2014 - Spent 79m, 28m recouped. Net spend - 51m
2013 - Spent 104m, 10m recouped. Net spend - 94m

That's well over half a billion net spend over the last five years. Amortisation, my ass.

Can you guess Chelsea's net spend over the same period of time? Around 150m. Now explain to me how the team that can't fill their own stadium and won significantly less domestically and have done next to nothing in Europe over the last decade compared to Chelsea can afford to spend like that?
 

el magico

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Don't take the term unlimited money literally. Of course they will have a limit. It's just that the limit of City is so big compared to other clubs. They are definetly not operating on the same playing field because most clubs earn the money that they are spending. Not like City who are being funded by a state.
That makes no sense. If City were being funded by a state why would they not have bought Evans (or Sanchez as M18CTID suggested) when the valuations were different by just a few million? The answer is clearly that City operate under the same financial constraints as everyone else.
 

LoneStar

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That makes no sense. If City were being funded by a state why would they not have bought Evans (or Sanchez as M18CTID suggested) when the valuations were different by just a few million? The answer is clearly that City operate under the same financial constraints as everyone else.
Maybe Evans was not a priority buy? Sanchez deal is more to do with Arsenal not getting Lamar than anything else.
 

anant

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Lets be honest over here. All Uefa would do is fine them a few million euros and that will be that.
But RM and Barca are aware that the 2 clubs can become as big s them and hence will unite the other 5 clubs in england, the more successful Italian clubs, Bayern, BVB and a few clubs from other European countries and form a breakway league. Once this takes place, CL loses all value and the 2 clubs become destabilized as the elite players want to play in the breakaway league.
Seeing that they are losing money, the sheikhs decide to sell the clubs.
Having seen that the inorganic clubs are gone these breakaway clubs are open to negotiations with UEFA to return to CL but with stricter conditions which makes entry of a new superclub near impossible. Having lost millions in revenue, Uefa will accept their demands
 

Random Task

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"LaLiga, the association of Spain’s top football teams, is pleased that UEFA has opened a formal Financial Fair Play (FFP) investigation into Paris Saint-Germain (PSG). The investigation comes after LaLiga formally requested such probes into PSG and Manchester City FC (Man City) in August.

“PSG is a habitual offender and has been violating UEFA’s Financial Fair Play regulations for years,” said LaLiga President Javier Tebas. “It is important that UEFA doesn’t just look at the most recent player transfers, but at PSG’s history of noncompliance. The transfers are merely the result of years of financial doping at PSG.”

LaLiga requested UEFA investigate the infringement of FFP regulations by PSG and Man City in separate letters dated Aug. 22, 2017. In the letters, LaLiga lays out that the financials of both clubs have no basis in the realities of the market. Specifically, both PSG and Man City benefit from sponsorships that make no economic sense and lack any fair value.

“PSG and Man City’s funding by state-aid distorts European competitions and creates an inflationary spiral that is irreparably harming the football industry,” said Tebas. “UEFA must enforce FFP regulations to avoid discrimination among clubs.”

LaLiga calls on UEFA to proceed with its investigation, taking into account the full history of PSG’s actions. Additionally, LaLiga calls on UEFA to open a similar investigation into Man City."

EDIT: Nothing new, I didn´t realize that this is the statement that BBC was talking about
Patronizing feckers over there at LaLiga, applauding the FFP investigation into PSG that they were the primary instigators of. Laughable.

They won't find nothing anyway, they are chasing shadows.
 
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GrandJury

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To be honest if the trend continues of rich oil fueled billionaires pumping stupid money into football I can see a lot of people eventually giving up on the game.
 

Random Task

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Lets be honest over here. All Uefa would do is fine them a few million euros and that will be that.
But RM and Barca are aware that the 2 clubs can become as big s them and hence will unite the other 5 clubs in england, the more successful Italian clubs, Bayern, BVB and a few clubs from other European countries and form a breakway league. Once this takes place, CL loses all value and the 2 clubs become destabilized as the elite players want to play in the breakaway league.
Seeing that they are losing money, the sheikhs decide to sell the clubs.
Having seen that the inorganic clubs are gone these breakaway clubs are open to negotiations with UEFA to return to CL but with stricter conditions which makes entry of a new superclub near impossible. Having lost millions in revenue, Uefa will accept their demands

Uefa has a number of tools at its disposal. When City were found to have breached FFP in 2014, not only were they fined £60m but they were told that instead of naming a squad of 25 players for the Champions League the following season they could name just 21 with eight of those homegrown.

Quite a serious matter if found guilty and you can bet this time around, with Real and Barca playing a silent part in proceedings, PSG will be made an example of.
 

Josep Dowling

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Funny you should say that as I was going to add that if most or all the new signings flop then we will have a problem for sure. There aren't any excuses for finishing 4th and way off the title pace.
That makes no sense. If City were being funded by a state why would they not have bought Evans (or Sanchez as M18CTID suggested) when the valuations were different by just a few million? The answer is clearly that City operate under the same financial constraints as everyone else.
It's not strictly true though is it. The Etihad deal is clearly not at fair value, it doesn't matter if it's been accepted by UEFA as fair it quite clearly isn't.

When the Etihad deal was signed it was far more than any of the top elite clubs could generate from advertising. Clubs who have 50+ years of continued success to gain their large fan bases.

And I'm not having a go at City, they have found a way round the 'rules'. It's up to UEFA to implement the rules.
 

Revan

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Uefa has a number of tools at its disposal. When City were found to have breached FFP in 2014, not only were they fined £60m but they were told that instead of naming a squad of 25 players for the Champions League the following season they could name just 21 with eight of those homegrown.

Quite a serious matter if found guilty and you can bet this time around, with Real and Barca playing a silent part in proceedings, PSG will be made an example of.
PSG can send UEFA to court though, and the word is that UEFA would lose in such case.
 

Random Task

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PSG can send UEFA to court though, and the word is that UEFA would lose in such case.
True.

Uefa will likely find nothing incriminating in any case regardless of how suspect as these sponsorship deals would appear to be.
 

M18CTID

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From transfermarket.co.uk
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-city/transfers/verein/281/saison_id/2017

2017 - Spent 220m, 87m recouped. Net spend - 133m.
2016 - Spent 192m, 32m recouped. Net spend - 160m
2015 - Spent 192m, 61m recouped. Net spend - 131m
2014 - Spent 79m, 28m recouped. Net spend - 51m
2013 - Spent 104m, 10m recouped. Net spend - 94m

That's well over half a billion net spend over the last five years. Amortisation, my ass.

Can you guess Chelsea's net spend over the same period of time? Around 150m. Now explain to me how the team that can't fill their own stadium and won significantly less domestically and have done next to nothing in Europe over the last decade compared to Chelsea can afford to spend like that?
Because we didn't sell Ramires and Oscar for over-inflated fees to Chinese clubs maybe? Or David Luiz to PSG? Or the fact that you have more players out on loan than any other club in England and have made a fair chunk of money by selling them on down the years? And yet you have the bare-faced cheek to claim it's City flouting FFP. I think you need to look a little closer to home sunshine for your little workarounds. City have built a far bigger and better infrastructure at the club in a shorter space of time than yours and it's starting to pay off handsomely. It's not our fault that Chelsea aren't as forward thinking - Roman needs to get some better people on board - and I bet other top clubs will be following City's blueprint in future. Soriano vs Gourlay? Don't make me laugh ffs.
Also, it's not City's fault that your owner chooses not to spend as much of Chelsea's income on players these days.
 
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BobbyManc

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City and PSG will obviously be dead against the idea of altering the the current system as it would very likely have an adverse affect on their transfer outlay, but to suggest United and/or Real would be against it is flatout lunacy. Perez and the Glazer will be heading the the queue to see changes made.

I do think a "fairer system" is on the agenda, though. As to what that could be I have no idea.
:lol:

No, I'm talking about a system that is actually fair, not one that just reinforces the status quo and prevents further sugar daddy clubs like City and PSG, which is precisely why the status quo pressured UEFA to implement FFP in the first place. You only have to take a glance at the TV revenue in La Liga to realise what sort of system Perez favours.
 

Chesterlestreet

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This is simply not true. Platini and UEFA were always very clear about their stated intentions. Reigning in expenditures from clubs who couldn't afford it and from those who got sugar daddy injections were both within their stated purview.
Same thing when the concept of FFP first surfaced. The problem wasn't PSG or City, but Rangers, Portsmouth, Malaga, etc. Clubs that spent far more money than they were able to generate as businesses - with inevitable and horrible results.

Stopping clubs from spending shitloads (and more than their rivals), as such, was never the primary goal of FFP. The basic idea of "don't spend more on transfers (and wages) than you can afford as a business" wasn't introduced mainly to stop sugar daddies from buying CL trophies. Like I said, the way it has hit upstarts like City and PSG has always been a side effect.

FFP as a concept was developed long before Roman bought Chelsea. Makes it harder for conspiracy theorists to peddle their bollocks, sadly (for them), but there it is.
 

MkPaul

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Am I right in thinking if City and PSG owners decided they wanted to sell up, they wouldn't be able to based on the unsustainable business model?

Obviously City and PSG have lots of players on huge wages, without the financially doped sponsorship deals when another owner took over, wouldn't they just crumble?
 

Nighteyes

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Barcelona at least have some leg to stand on and as annoying and precious as the whole mes que un bollocks is there's a lot to like about what they try to do. Real Madrid are the very last club who should be complaining about state backed clubs.
 

Hojoon

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Same thing when the concept of FFP first surfaced. The problem wasn't PSG or City, but Rangers, Portsmouth, Malaga, etc. Clubs that spent far more money than they were able to generate as businesses - with inevitable and horrible results.

Stopping clubs from spending shitloads (and more than their rivals), as such, was never the primary goal of FFP. The basic idea of "don't spend more on transfers (and wages) than you can afford as a business" wasn't introduced mainly to stop sugar daddies from buying CL trophies. Like I said, the way it has hit upstarts like City and PSG has always been a side effect.

FFP as a concept was developed long before Roman bought Chelsea. Makes it harder for conspiracy theorists to peddle their bollocks, sadly (for them), but there it is.
Yup. The idea that UEFA or any other governing body wants to stop interest and investment into their business is bizarre. This is nothing more than collateral damage that the established clubs/league like La Liga is taking advantage of. If La Liga and other established big clubs like Bayern, Juventus, United, Chelsea, Arsenal etc decide to gang up on PSG then I could see considerable action taken because they represent the vast majority of global football fans.
 

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:lol:

No, I'm talking about a system that is actually fair, not one that just reinforces the status quo and prevents further sugar daddy clubs like City and PSG, which is precisely why the status quo pressured UEFA to implement FFP in the first place. You only have to take a glance at the TV revenue in La Liga to realise what sort of system Perez favours.
So you're suggesting a system that would support both "sugar daddy" clubs and your "legitimate money" clubs? Such a system does not exist, not least because any alteration to the current system would be implemented due in no small part to the aforementioned "sugar daddy" clubs dominating the market.

How could you possibly appease both?
 

ti vu

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Barcelona at least have some leg to stand on and as annoying and precious as the whole mes que un bollocks is there's a lot to like about what they try to do. Real Madrid are the very last club who should be complaining about state backed clubs.
Not really. I meant Barcelona. There is certain huge degree political support from Catalan region too. If there is no regional state support, Barcelona would be like Monaco compare to PSG given how well backed Madrid is.
 

anant

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Uefa has a number of tools at its disposal. When City were found to have breached FFP in 2014, not only were they fined £60m but they were told that instead of naming a squad of 25 players for the Champions League the following season they could name just 21 with eight of those homegrown.

Quite a serious matter if found guilty and you can bet this time around, with Real and Barca playing a silent part in proceedings, PSG will be made an example of.
As far as fines are concerned- 60m isn't significant when you basically have an oil rich country funding you. The squad punishment I'd agree is decent but it's not something that will stop clubs from doing so once every few years as it's worth it.
And even if UEFA do decide to be harsh on PSG, I doubt they'd find any proof. While everyone would be knowing the truth, including judges, Qatar Airlines is a state owned airlines and will not be having the names of Royal family members as 'owners' of the airlines and the case gets dropped there and then. Even if UEFA does decide to bring in some rule to prevent such occurences, The sheikhs can easily pay a firm to sponsor them for the amount they've paid.
 

JPRouve

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Am I right in thinking if City and PSG owners decided they wanted to sell up, they wouldn't be able to based on the unsustainable business model?

Obviously City and PSG have lots of players on huge wages, without the financially doped sponsorship deals when another owner took over, wouldn't they just crumble?
A little bit like Marseille, they would have to reduce the wage bill and also sell for a fee below the current market value.
 

BobbyManc

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So you're suggesting a system that would support both "sugar daddy" clubs and your "legitimate money" clubs? Such a system does not exist, not least because any alteration to the current system would be implemented due in no small part to the aforementioned "sugar daddy" clubs dominating the market.

How could you possibly appease both?
Well that's my point, a system should not have to appease either. And that's why any meaningful reform, even if it were to be considered, would be vetoed by the 'sugar daddy' clubs and the 'legitimate money' ones.
 

I Believe

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The complaints from La Liga are nothing short of pathetic, and have nothing to do with the fair play, but everything to do about helping Barca and Real.
Spot on!
This is an ongoing saga of La Liga's vitriolic behaviour towards any club or football organisation that threatens (as they see it) their dominance in Europe. The phrase, that use to be associated with Mike Summerbee's approach to rough tackling full backs (City fans will know him) springs to mind about la Liga's approach... "get your retaliation in first"!

I believed (no pun intended) that the FFP people didn't need to be nudged towards investigating clubs, if there was a prima-facie case, then they should investigate?
 

Random Task

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Well that's my point, a system should not have to appease either. And that's why any meaningful reform, even if it were to be considered, would be vetoed by the 'sugar daddy' clubs and the 'legitimate money' ones.
Precisely.

Back to square one then.
 

Slimcharles69

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They're acting like success on the pitch has had nothing to do with spending through the history of the game. For the most part Barca and Real have always outspent the other Spanish sides that's why they've won the most trophies, same for Bayern, Utd, Juventus, maybe City and PSG have disrupted the market to the point where it's impossible not to overpay for a player but I don't think it will make them the unstoppable forces people think they'll become
 

finneh

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That's not how it works mate. You don't go to the owner to buy a house you do it via a financial institution. The bank will most fecking definitely ask you and investigate where you got money from and have a load of anti-fraud and money laundering checks on top of all the other legalities.

All in all a Crap analogy.

What is this "outside investment" decades ago and tell us how this in breach of any law whether it existed back then or now?
You clearly haven't bought a house without the help of a bank. If you have the funds in your bank they will do a money laundering check and if the funds haven't been accumulated naturally over a long period of time they will only ask for whoever has contributed significant to sign a waiver that they have no discernable interest in the asset.

Financial institutions are only involved if you can't afford what you're purchasing and you need the assistance of a third party in securing your purchase. I've bought two properties with a mortgage and one property without one so understanding the semantics.

City are in a position where they don't need anyone's help in making purchases. They don't need an advisor to tell them they can afford it, don't need a third party to underwrite it and don't need a seller to ratify that they're capable. They literally only need to prove that their funds have been acquired in a legal manner and that they arent laundering money.

If I were purchasing another property tomorrow it would be laughable to ask me to prove not only that I could afford the property, but also that my income were generated solely through means which the seller found palatable. In fact I'd go one step further and say that if a seller asked me to substantiate my finances more than the natural laundering check a I'd tell them to go forth and multiply.

And just like City if all sellers banded together and said they wouldn't sell me a house for some bizarre reason; I'd work my way around the system and purchase it anyway. If my funds were inherited, I'd invest in a company, pay myself a large dividend and purchase said property as a successful entrepreneur, rather than a random inheritee.
 

carvajal

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La liga can be arrogant and cynical to the extreme, but it is undeniable that there is a debate in the world of football about what has happened this summer, so nothing happens if there are public doubts and questions.
If Madrid want to buy have to sell before, and maintain an strict control over wages, and certainly the king does not sponsor us with 200 million to promote the Tourism or the sport in Spain.
I am almost convinced that the point of view of United's influential players and characters is exactly the same as that of la liga, so I do not understand why this thread is so bluemoonized.
If they investigate both teams and it turns out that they have done nothing wrong, then the rest will know that fine-tuning accounting and with shady business we can find alternatives to adapt to the new reality.
 

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La liga can be arrogant and cynical to the extreme, but it is undeniable that there is a debate in the world of football about what has happened this summer, so nothing happens if there are public doubts and questions.
If Madrid want to buy have to sell before, and maintain an strict control over wages, and certainly the king does not sponsor us with 200 million to promote the Tourism or the sport in Spain.
I am almost convinced that the point of view of United's influential players and characters is exactly the same as that of la liga, so I do not understand why this thread is so bluemoonized.
If they investigate both teams and it turns out that they have done nothing wrong, then the rest will know that fine-tuning accounting and with shady business we can find alternatives to adapt to the new reality.
exactly, the only issue is knowing how corrupt Fifa and Euefa is with all the FBI chaos etc in the last few years whose to say that these state owned clubs don't have them in their pockets already which is why they get away with it and have been for years with the occasional slap on the wrist just for show and ceremony?
 

carvajal

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exactly, the only issue is knowing how corrupt Fifa and Euefa is with all the FBI chaos etc in the last few years whose to say that these state owned clubs don't have them in their pockets already which is why they get away with it and have been for years with the occasional slap on the wrist just for show and ceremony?
If we consider that the World Cup will be held in winter in a country that is basically a city in the desert ... I would say that we should accept the situation
 

Rajma

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I'm very comfortable living in a world where I don't believe there is any commonality between Manchester City's auditors and 'independent observers' in a Crimean referendum.
Well, both are officially approved but no one with common sense takes it seriously.

Also, well done you for avoiding the point around leading world institutions, especially, within fiancial sector being corrupt as feck.
 
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antihenry

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Because we didn't sell Ramires and Oscar for over-inflated fees to Chinese clubs maybe? Or David Luiz to PSG? Or the fact that you have more players out on loan than any other club in England and have made a fair chunk of money by selling them on down the years? And yet you have the bare-faced cheek to claim it's City flouting FFP. I think you need to look a little closer to home sunshine for your little workarounds. City have built a far bigger and better infrastructure at the club in a shorter space of time than yours and it's starting to pay off handsomely. It's not our fault that Chelsea aren't as forward thinking - Roman needs to get some better people on board - and I bet other top clubs will be following City's blueprint in future. Soriano vs Gourlay? Don't make me laugh ffs.
Also, it's not City's fault that your owner chooses not to spend as much of Chelsea's income on players these days.
You didn't have to sell any of the players you didn't want to, because you didn't need to worry about balancing the books, that's the whole point. And what difference does it make, whether we sell them to China or anywhere else? Chelsea weren't the only club to sell players to Chinese clubs for lots of money, again what's your point? Having players on loan and selling them down the years is something many clubs do, it's perfectly legal.

Yeah, tell me more about that fantastic forward thinking and your great "business plans". So let's say, Chelsea are run by dumb people and the owner chooses not to spend on players anymore. What about the rest of the top clubs? How can you possibly have the bigger net spend than the biggest clubs in the world year after year? Are they all backwards thinking and tight with money? Only City and PSG have found a way to keep spending big and not worry about balancing the books. Must be a miracle.

City have managed to reach the CL semis ONCE since the takeover. That's your biggest accomplishment in Europe after spending an absolute fortune. So all the clubs that have much bigger fanbase and much more success at home and abroad just couldn't figure out how to monetize that properly, but City did. Simply amazing.
 

JohnnyKills

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Someone get a violin out, poor Real Madrid can't buy a Ronaldo or a Bale every year.
How on earth were a club like City ever going to challenge someone like Madrid without substantial outside investment?

Monaco won the French title last season.
You literally just answered your own question pal.

With sensible planning, good youth development and prescient scouting a moderately sized club can become genuinely competitive. Monaco, Leicester, Spurs, Atletico, Sevilla... There are lots of examples. The idea that you need huge external investment to compete with the top clubs just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
 

clarkydaz

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While the sentiment is correct, the nature of the complaint is clear to see and you just have to laugh at the hypocricy. while I don't believe Messi would go to City, flirting a real possibility costs Barca more to find ways to keep him. If he left, La Liga as a product would take a massive dent
 

el magico

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Well, both are officially approved but no one with common sense takes it seriously.
Well, both are officially approved but no one with common sense takes it seriously.

Also, well done you for avoiding the point around leading world institutions, especially, within fiancial sector being corrupt as feck.
Go on then, for my benefit, please explain explicitly why Man City's auditors are corrupt. Feel free to reference Crimea, credit reference agencies or any other whataboutery your fevered imagination can produce. But bear in mind, I'm really looking for specific examples or reasons why BDO Llp are corrupt. I await your answer with interest.
 

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You literally just answered your own question pal.

With sensible planning, good youth development and prescient scouting a moderately sized club can become genuinely competitive. Monaco, Leicester, Spurs, Atletico, Sevilla... There are lots of examples. The idea that you need huge external investment to compete with the top clubs just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Monaco were one of the top teams in the French league long before they won the title last year. Leicester's triumph was a once in a lifetime miracle the likes of which we'll never witness again. Spurs for all their huff and puff have won nowt. Athletico and Sevilla are largely insignificant in LaLiga where Real and Barca rule the roost.

Truth be told you have to spend money in the pursuit of success and large sums of it too.
 
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The holy trinity 68

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Manchester
Please explain how it is not sustainable? I'd have thought a club that earns hundreds of millions every year and backed by a man with an estimated wealth of around £20bn would be able to sustain spending £200m or so every summer. It seems to have worked without any problems so far. And please explain your view without recourse to the rather silly hypothetical question of 'what if he just decides to leave tomorrow?'.
It isn't sustainable for city in the sense that they are only able to compete at the elite end of the market due to the billionaire owners pumping their own money into the club and creating/obtaining absurd sponsors that allow them to get around the loopholes.

For example, city have only won the league twice in about 40 years and haven't won a European cup in the same time. So they would never be able to get such highly paid sponsorship deals if it wasn't for the obvious use of loopholes to get around FFP.

And worked without any problem so far? They had a transfer ban 2 years ago for breaching the FFP rules. So yeah they have had problems. For a City fan (I assume so by your name and defence of City) you aren't really aware of facts. Or maybe you are but try to avoid them and pretend things are all fine and dandy.

All City fans are the same, cry on about the likes of Man United buying the league and spending fortunes every year. As soon as City become rich and spending obscene amounts of money, there is no issue anymore.