Good move or not?
Belgian clubs vote (in principle) for Belgian-Dutch league
- Thread starter horsechoker
- Start date
Good move or not?
The Belgian clubs will suffer more than the Dutch clubs from this move. Genk, Anderlecht and Brugge all tend to challenge or win their league, they can say goodbye to winning the league again after this.
Ajax are going to sweep up most of the titles, and then PSV are always up there. I feel sorry for fans of the big clubs in Belgium, their club basically aren't going to win the league much anymore, if at all.
True but it's the Belgian clubs that have voted for this.
I guess a load of Belgium teams going to have to be relegated? Weird the lower clubs voted for it.
I see the benefit in terms of having more viewers, but it isn't going to be more competitive. I'd understand if a league with a team on par with Ajax joined, but the Belgium teams aren't close.
I see the benefit in terms of having more viewers, but it isn't going to be more competitive. I'd understand if a league with a team on par with Ajax joined, but the Belgium teams aren't close.
Yeah but the fans haven't, that is who I feel sorry for.
It's the only way both Belgian and Dutch bigger clubs can stay somewhat financially relevant in Europe. I'd also prefer to see Brugge - Ajax or PSV - Genk than watch VVV - Emmen or Beveren - Eupen. Ajax will be the best team, no doubt, but Brugge is a very good team too.
I know a lot of Dutch people are against it, so I doubt it will ever happen.
I know a lot of Dutch people are against it, so I doubt it will ever happen.
Excellent move. Should have happened towards the end of the 90s though.
It seems like a no-brainer for the top half of both leagues, but as someone who gets access to all the football in Europe as a byproduct of having subscribed to broadcasters of German football, I wouldn't expect this to yield a lot of improvement for international TV money. Because for basically every conceivable kick-off time there will also be one of the top leagues on display.
And on the other hand why would the lesser clubs of both leagues vote in favour of growing the pie, when it also means they won't be able to eat it anymore? Belgian top clubs would have to threaten unenthusiastic clubs with unilaterally joining the Dutch football pyramid if this merger fails?!
And on the other hand why would the lesser clubs of both leagues vote in favour of growing the pie, when it also means they won't be able to eat it anymore? Belgian top clubs would have to threaten unenthusiastic clubs with unilaterally joining the Dutch football pyramid if this merger fails?!
id love it from a betting perspective, Dutch and Belgium leagues are great for goals in the last 15 minutes, actually very entertaining to watch
It's the smaller Belgian clubs who will suffer. The bigger ones are the main beneficiaries here. Of course at first they will be inferior to Ajax and PSG. But they'll be looking at much-improved revenue and a higher bar to challenge themselves against. Over time they will catch up - it's not such a huge gap between PSG and say Brugge or Anderlecht that it can't be traversed. It's a growth opportunity for them.
UEFA would be heavily against it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_League_(football)
Always wondered if they could have inter-league matches whilst keeping the leagues seperate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_League_(football)
Always wondered if they could have inter-league matches whilst keeping the leagues seperate.
They should include Denmark in this as well.
A league with Ajax, PSV, AZ, Feyenoord, Vitesse, Utrecht, Brugge, Antwerp, Genk, Anderlecht, Midtjylland, Kobenhaven, Brondby is a very decent league. It will certainly be stronger than the Portuguese Liga and will have a chance to get as good as the French Ligue 1.
Amongst those teams, while Ajax is clearly the best, I would put Brugge as #2 on current strength.
A league with Ajax, PSV, AZ, Feyenoord, Vitesse, Utrecht, Brugge, Antwerp, Genk, Anderlecht, Midtjylland, Kobenhaven, Brondby is a very decent league. It will certainly be stronger than the Portuguese Liga and will have a chance to get as good as the French Ligue 1.
Amongst those teams, while Ajax is clearly the best, I would put Brugge as #2 on current strength.
I think two national leagues merging would be something else entirely to a league that picks 2-3 clubs from 6 different countries, creating a poor man's super league.
I see the Dutch clubs are more skeptical, as there still remains a lot to be determined - in particular regarding qualification for European competitions and what happens with the teams that don't make the top league, also regarding promotion/relegation. I think I read they need 5/6 approval among the clubs to move this forward, so that's going to be a hard one.
In any case, I'm also surprised to see lower Belgian clubs supporting this. I get it for the top clubs. There is simply no growth left within Belgium or the Netherlands for them. Yes, there would be more competition for the league victory in the BeNeLiga, but there would be a much bigger audience as well. Just domestically, it would more than double for the Belgian teams, and almost double for the Dutch teams. So I can see the attraction for the clubs that can look forward to a guaranteed spot in the top league.
But everyone else - where's the benefit? Take clubs like Groningen or Charleroi, they are just below the top/subtop in a good season, what chances for anything will they have in a joint league? Or clubs like Cercle Brugge or Sparta that yo-yo a bit between the first and second divisions right now, they are likely looking at a second division spot in perpetuity with a BeNeLiga in place.
From my perspective though, I'd love it. I like the Belgian top clubs, and I'd love to have them playing the Dutch top clubs on a regular basis. It will take away some of the traditional match-ups in each country, but there is much less history or rivalry there than in e.g. England. Apart from at those clubs themselves, I don't think there will be much hand-wringing over Heracles or Zwolle or Eupen or Moeskroen falling off the radar.
In any case, I'm also surprised to see lower Belgian clubs supporting this. I get it for the top clubs. There is simply no growth left within Belgium or the Netherlands for them. Yes, there would be more competition for the league victory in the BeNeLiga, but there would be a much bigger audience as well. Just domestically, it would more than double for the Belgian teams, and almost double for the Dutch teams. So I can see the attraction for the clubs that can look forward to a guaranteed spot in the top league.
But everyone else - where's the benefit? Take clubs like Groningen or Charleroi, they are just below the top/subtop in a good season, what chances for anything will they have in a joint league? Or clubs like Cercle Brugge or Sparta that yo-yo a bit between the first and second divisions right now, they are likely looking at a second division spot in perpetuity with a BeNeLiga in place.
From my perspective though, I'd love it. I like the Belgian top clubs, and I'd love to have them playing the Dutch top clubs on a regular basis. It will take away some of the traditional match-ups in each country, but there is much less history or rivalry there than in e.g. England. Apart from at those clubs themselves, I don't think there will be much hand-wringing over Heracles or Zwolle or Eupen or Moeskroen falling off the radar.
Hope it doesn't happen.
I'm not opposed to change in football. Different rules, different cup competitions and formats being introduced, etc, will always keep happening. And that's fine.
But different national leagues merging, or the forming of a super league, has been talked about for years and I've never liked the sound of it. Whatever else changes, I always want each nation to keep their own leagues and the biggest clubs to still be competing in them, and not in some European Super League.
I'm not opposed to change in football. Different rules, different cup competitions and formats being introduced, etc, will always keep happening. And that's fine.
But different national leagues merging, or the forming of a super league, has been talked about for years and I've never liked the sound of it. Whatever else changes, I always want each nation to keep their own leagues and the biggest clubs to still be competing in them, and not in some European Super League.
It's a similar conflict to the one behind the CL reforms and in the end it might be resolved in a similar fashion: big clubs bullying smaller clubs into submission. Belgian top clubs telling smaller clubs to vote for this or they will apply to join the Dutch leagues, leaving behind a ruin and big Dutch clubs telling smaller ones to either vote for this or they will have to pursue economic growth by quitting collective TV deals.
I don't have that. I don't like a pan-European league, because there are no ties behind clubs and countries, they'd just be flying over everyone to head from one global-tier club to another for their matches, without any ties remaining to their histories and local leagues. The combination of Belgium and the Netherlands is different though. They're neighbours, there are lots of connections. They'd build on existing traditions and there would still be promotion/relegation - it wouldn't be a completely new venture.
On that same note, borders are pretty random. It's a matter of luck whether you're in a big or small country in terms of whether you'll be able to be sustainably successful on a European stage. I don't see an issue changing something about those borders, as they'd be doing here. In a way, it's similar to Cardiff and Swansea making their way into the EPL. Or were you against that as well? Cause I don't see much difference - except that the English pyramid is so big that it just absorbs the Welsh clubs, there is no merger.
I guess, yeah. I'd love to see some analysis for the unanimous vote by the Belgian clubs, what's behind it. I suppose it will come out in the next few days.
Could Switzerland and Austria merge, they seem to be about level quality wise?
Denmark and Sweden could to but the travel would be a pain in the arse. I'm not sure if Sweden could with Norway as they may not be equal but at least they are closer to one another.
Denmark and Sweden could to but the travel would be a pain in the arse. I'm not sure if Sweden could with Norway as they may not be equal but at least they are closer to one another.
We should have one world league with every country feeding into that league, based in international waters on a boat so no home team advantage
I think Denmark-Sweden might actually be better for travel. Norway and Sweden have a mountain range between them, and Norway has some pretty northern clubs in their top league, unlike Sweden apart from Östersunds. Copenhagen for a start is just across the bridge from Malmö.
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Big fan of this, as how the system is set up today is a big disadvantage for a club in smaller countries. The most balanced and fair set up would be to divide Europe into equal regions, and organise them as the national leagues are organized today.
Think about the Welsh clubs that take part in the English league system (instead of playing in the Welsh league), and the biggest Irish clubs, and consider which clubs have the biggest potential to acquire and keep hold of good players, and build a good team.
Think about the Welsh clubs that take part in the English league system (instead of playing in the Welsh league), and the biggest Irish clubs, and consider which clubs have the biggest potential to acquire and keep hold of good players, and build a good team.
Perhaps it's not as bad as I initially thought, near all of the Swedish league are in the South. Travel times could still be quite long in some cases but I suppose that could be solved by flights. Initially I was imaging having to go from the North of Sweden to South Jutland.
There was a study a while back that predicted €400m in tv money for the new league. That's double the combined deals right now. It also predicted the beneliga to comfortably become the 6th best european league.
Is it worth it? I dunno, tbh. Travel distances would still be less than in any of the major leagues and there's obviously a lot of shared history/rivalry. Still I feel a lot of middle of the pack historical clubs will be reduced to semi-amateur clubs, which sucks for the local fans..
Is it worth it? I dunno, tbh. Travel distances would still be less than in any of the major leagues and there's obviously a lot of shared history/rivalry. Still I feel a lot of middle of the pack historical clubs will be reduced to semi-amateur clubs, which sucks for the local fans..
No, belgian clubs will have more money than now, and more chances to improve
Finland have to be involved as well
A league compiled of the top Dutch and Belgiim clubs would be ideal for Rangers and Celtic. I belive that idea was proposed a number of years ago.
That'd really ramp up travel time though - which was why @horsechoker brought it up.
Also, the Finnish clubs might not be as interested, they'd probably almost all play in the Danish and Swedish second leagues...
I think that's quite different, Swansea and Cardiff have been part of the English football leagues for almost as long as they've been football clubs. Which is why the situation with Celtic and Rangers would be quite different.
Great idea.
Probably there will be too many „but“-sayers in the end to realize it
It would make their league relevant again. That would be a big jump from the „who cares“-category.
Probably there will be too many „but“-sayers in the end to realize it
It would make their league relevant again. That would be a big jump from the „who cares“-category.
Yeah, I agree.
I didn't bother replying to that point earlier but, as you say, it's very different to the suggested Super Leagues.
When the likes of Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport, etc, joined the English pyramid, it was because Wales didn't have a professional football league. It's traditionally a Rugby country, and a professional Football league wasn't started until around the 1970's. At that point, the Welsh teams who'd been playing in England for decades were invited to join it but only some of those still in non league opted to do so. Those established in the league, like Cardiff and Swansea, who'd always played in England, opted to stay.
It's a very different scenario to teams like Rangers and Celtic walking out of an established Scottish league after 100 years. Or a number of top teams from various countries leaving their domestic leagues to form a European Super League.
I really hope that never happens. But I suspect that it's a matter of when, not if, as money talks.
Away days could be lively - ACC turning up at Ajax could be interesting...
Ah ok - thanks for the clarification. I thought it was a recent thing.
Anyway, as someone who grew up in the Netherlands, I think this sounds great. It's a pretty old idea, too, and I've always liked it. That might also have to do with me being from the south of the Netherlands, and in some ways feeling more affinity with Flanders than 'Holland'. So the NL-BE border isn't to me what it is to others, and I have no interest in arguments about historical continuity or traditional leagues in this particular case.
There are reasons why it never materialized though, and those are stopping it on the Dutch side now again. (Or for now, anyway.)
Not so sure. Barely anyone outside of Holland cares when Ajax play Feyenoord. Not sure more people will care if Ajax play Anderlecht. The theory that this will be some big money spinning thing seems like fantasy to me.
How did they come to the conclusion the league would make 400 million more and even if it did, you’ve now got double the amount of clubs you’d have to share that money with.
Imagine if the english and french league were merged. Psg will vote against it, not only will they not win the league, qualifying for champions league wouldn't be guaranteed either.
Alternatively we could vote and send city and chelsea to the french league and remove wage caps and transfer limits.
Alternatively we could vote and send city and chelsea to the french league and remove wage caps and transfer limits.
Is this the start of that Atlantic league idea from a few years back?
That's the Hurricanes isn't it?
It will be a Butch league then.
Great idea, more leagues and teams should look into this. The current state of affairs is pretty stale in a lot of nations. Them coming together will improve basically everything.
The viewership numbers for AJA/PSV/FEY are siginificantly higher abroad and that does make quite a difference in tv money. I remember seeing PSV in Hungary because Dzsudzsák played there. The Hungarians wouldn't have bothered had he played for Fortuna Sittard. Multiply this for each country in the world. No, we wouldn't have double the clubs. It would still be 20 clubs with the others in a 2nd tier.
I'm all for it, it would instantly propell us to the 6th best league ahead of Russia, Portugal etc.
Personally, I don't care if Feyenoord will have a chance at winning the league once every 40 years instead of once every 20 years. At least the football will be of higher quality in the other 39 years.
It probably won't materialise, some top clubs are afraid of the competition and would rather take the guaranteed CL spot (*cough* PSV *cough*)
Where have you read PSV is against this? I’m all for it.