Blocks for playing for United

[UnitedFire]

Rio failed to turn up for a drugs test and was banned, but still was a United legend.

Cantona fly kicked a twat fan, was banned but still came back to be a legend.

Giggs was a legend, but has tarnished that for various reasons, some of which we shouldn't comment on at this point.

Ronaldo serious allegations, but not convicted.

Where do you draw the line on a player continuing to play for us?

We can't comment on current ongoing matters, but no reason we cant have a theoretical debate of similar scenarios or on reflection of cases no longer ongoing.

So a player commits a serious crime, but might get away with it on lack of evidence, but enough suggestions to draw your own conclusions... Player continue or not?

In Ronaldo case it can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt so seems he is allowed reasonable allowances.

There could be a case like Julian Assange where time expiring covers them, but little doubt left.

It does feel like too many allowances are given to superstars generally, e.g. Tyson probably should not be allowed on TV any more given convicted rapist.

 

[Red Rash]

I don't really know exactly where the line is but I would say:

• Rio took the test the next day and passed, stupid of him but not a drug cheat
• Cantona kicked a racist fan which I can forgive
• Ronaldo I don't know the case that well but if they are just allegations and he hasn't been found guilty you have to give him the benefit of the doubt
• In the case of Giggs this happened after his playing career. If he was still playing I wouldn't want him at the club

 

[slored1]

Rio, Cantona minor offences and don't really consider them guilty. Giggs is a thundercnut and I really dislike him as a person, hope we never invite him to the stands again. Ronaldo I have my doubts over but innocent until proven guilty I guess.

 

[Reditus]

Cantona became even more of a legend for his incident

 

[Reditus]

Ronaldo leaves me feel uncomfortable and I try to forget it but after Sunday it’s making me uncomfortable again

Rio I thought it was very fishy but benefit of the doubt

Giggs has destroyed his legacy

 

[Oranges038]

Cantona was right to do what he did.

But, what about Best?

Probably the biggest cnut of the whole lot and he still has a statue outside the club and an airport named after him.

 

[dal]

Ronaldo leaves me feel uncomfortable and I try to forget it but after Sunday it’s making me uncomfortable again

Rio I thought it was very fishy but benefit of the doubt

Giggs has destroyed his legacy

Don’t care about what Rio did, one bit, Maradona is the number one legend in my book, regardless of his choice of powder.

 

[Reditus]

Don’t care about what Rio did, one bit, Maradona is the number one legend in my book, regardless of his choice of powder.

To be fair I wouldn’t put any drug takers (recreational or even enhancer’s) anywhere near names like Giggs, Best and MG

Different categories completely

 

[MIC_FIN]

Nah, stop trying to get a reaction out of people. And naturally people want to discuss. But now is not the time to be honest.

 

[UnitedFire]

Nah, stop trying to get a reaction out of people. And naturally people want to discuss. But now is not the time to be honest.

Talking scenarios is a way to discuss emotive feelings in a controlled way. And frankly there is a part here where it's probably an overdue conversation.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Nah, stop trying to get a reaction out of people. And naturally people want to discuss. But now is not the time to be honest.

Why do people keep saying this. When is the time and who has decided this

 

[UnitedFire]

Why do people keep saying this. When is the time and who has decided this

In regards to ongoing legal matters you can be held in contempt of court for influencing proceedings so best to avoid mentioning names in ongoing cases at all.

But we don't need to hold judgement or make comment on an ongoing matter when we can make comment regarding a range of potential outcomes in similar situations.

 

[tomaldinho1]

To be fair I wouldn’t put any drug takers (recreational or even enhancer’s) anywhere near names like Giggs, Best and MG

Different categories completely

Yeah agreed - you can't compare Cantona kicking a racist to Giggs' awful crimes.
Ronaldo one as well seems harsh to put him on the list, looks to be very little evidence.

 

[captaincantona]

In truth...it’s about the money...these cnuts will tolerate and opt for whichever option retains sponsorship, fan revenue and brand appeal. The club has to...they have a board and shareholders...the board is focussed on policies that benefit the shareholders...

Hypothetical - Ronny, our money making machine, is at risk of another alleged incident making the papers. Board get wind. Do you think the board would advise the club to get to the bottom of it behind the scenes...and if found to be true...dispense with Ronny? What would shareholders say!!!?

no room for morals in this business.

 

[UnitedFire]

Yeah agreed - you can't compare Cantona kicking a racist to Giggs' awful crimes.
Ronaldo one as well seems harsh to put him on the list, looks to be very little evidence.

Not saying you should compare these. Simply asking where the line is drawn.

Ronaldo is a good example for debate given its no longer an ongoing legal matter, but could very well end up with the same outcome as current legal matters.

Is it right to always give the benefit of the doubt? I'd suggest you probably do if insufficient public evidence. We know Ronaldo paid for silence, but when you have huge brand value that might be a better outcome than losing a ton of value till found innocent.

In a case with more public evidence, but technicalities someone might not be found guilty, but doesn't mean there isn't significant question as to whether that person should represent your club.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Cantona kick a scumbag, this make him even bigger legend.

Rio was just stupid, missing a drug test. He got what he deserved - lengthy suspension

Giggs, well, its happened after his retirement, nothing we can do about. He is still a legend as he won lots of trophies for us. But he is also a cnut. I don't respect him anymore as a person.

Ronaldo, the court has already dismissed the case and clear his name, what else do people want? Overturn the legal system and make our own judgement out of specualtion? Similarly, Van Persie has similar incidence in the past too, and it was all cleared too. Did we all not cheering for him too when he won the league for us?

 

[Houdini]

Do we know what kind of evidence was in the Giggs case? I am just curious to what extent is he a c...t? Also can MG be mentioned here or is it prohibited? Cantona is some levels below these two and Rio is not even in the same league. As for Ronaldo...well I don't know what to think, there is no evidence so he should not be mentioned.

 

[Long Time Red]

Not saying you should compare these. Simply asking where the line is drawn.

Ronaldo is a good example for debate given its no longer an ongoing legal matter, but could very well end up with the same outcome as current legal matters.

Is it right to always give the benefit of the doubt? I'd suggest you probably do if insufficient public evidence. We know Ronaldo paid for silence, but when you have huge brand value that might be a better outcome than losing a ton of value till found innocent.

In a case with more public evidence, but technicalities someone might not be found guilty, but doesn't mean there isn't significant question as to whether that person should represent your club.

He may have paid for silence due to being in a relationship with someone else at the time.

I don't think paying for silence is necessarily an admission of guilt.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Cantona is a legend for kicking that prick. Rio made a stupid mistake by missing a drug test but he wasn't a drug cheat. FA made an example out of him. Ronaldo I'm not going to get into it it's been discussed to death but he's never been found guilty. Yeah Giggs is a twat and is currently on trial for assaulting his ex girlfriend.

Players making bad decisions in their personal lives isn't on the club. They can't babysit them 24/7.

 

[stevoc]

Cantona was right to do what he did.

But, what about Best?

Probably the biggest cnut of the whole lot and he still has a statue outside the club and an airport named after him.

What is this about?

 

[RedTiger]

I don't really know exactly where the line is but I would say:

• Rio took the test the next day and passed, stupid of him but not a drug cheat
• Cantona kicked a racist fan which I can forgive
• Ronaldo I don't know the case that well but if they are just allegations and he hasn't been found guilty you have to give him the benefit of the doubt
• In the case of Giggs this happened after his playing career. If he was still playing I wouldn't want him at the club

No other answer needed.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Rio failed to turn up for a drugs test and was banned, but still was a United legend.

Cantona fly kicked a twat fan, was banned but still came back to be a legend.

Giggs was a legend, but has tarnished that for various reasons, some of which we shouldn't comment on at this point.

Ronaldo serious allegations, but not convicted.

Where do you draw the line on a player continuing to play for us?

We can't comment on current ongoing matters, but no reason we cant have a theoretical debate of similar scenarios or on reflection of cases no longer ongoing.

So a player commits a serious crime, but might get away with it on lack of evidence, but enough suggestions to draw your own conclusions... Player continue or not?

In Ronaldo case it can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt so seems he is allowed reasonable allowances.

There could be a case like Julian Assange where time expiring covers them, but little doubt left.

It does feel like too many allowances are given to superstars generally, e.g. Tyson probably should not be allowed on TV any more given convicted rapist.

What is United and why is it to be treated like any other work place?

The old days of club and community and representing your badge and your team are gone, replaced by footballers playing for money for a business that will pay them the most. The idea of the modern "united" being a stand up football club true to its roots is just madness at this point.

The question is about what is the acceptable Behaviour of an employee and when some types of behaviour have obviously crossed a line then its obvious what the company should do.
Each case of misconduct must be investigated, facts established and then action taken based on the company policy and contract of employment etc.

Its not some romantic old "we're Man United" and we do things for purity.

Modern footballers are not one bit attracted to old fashioned club heritage

 

[Marwood]

What is this about?

Best always gets pulled into these conversations. The problem is there's some nuance needed when discussing these things. There are differences between the cases. This probably isn't the time to discuss them.

But you're not getting nuance online. It's why Collymore is still getting a boatload of abuse decades on.

 

[Oranges038]

What is this about?

Don't think people should still need this explained.

It's less than 20 years since he beat his wife and left her in hospital. Other than he was just your average alcoholic domestic abuser for most of his life.

Great player, total cnut.

Best always gets pulled into these conversations. The problem is there's some nuance needed when discussing these things. There are differences between the cases. This probably isn't the time to discuss them.

But you're not getting nuance online. It's why Collymore is still getting a boatload of abuse decades on.

He deserves to be included.

What's different between him beating his wife/partner, cheating on her and Giggs doing it?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Not saying you should compare these. Simply asking where the line is drawn.

Ronaldo is a good example for debate given its no longer an ongoing legal matter, but could very well end up with the same outcome as current legal matters.

Is it right to always give the benefit of the doubt? I'd suggest you probably do if insufficient public evidence. We know Ronaldo paid for silence, but when you have huge brand value that might be a better outcome than losing a ton of value till found innocent.

In a case with more public evidence, but technicalities someone might not be found guilty, but doesn't mean there isn't significant question as to whether that person should represent your club.

The thing with the Ronaldo one is the timeline is so weird. From online reports, Mayorga reported it to the police the next day but wouldn't reveal who she was accusing, they couldn't prove she'd been sexually assaulted but could prove she had had sex. Then there's the bizarre evidence/questionnaire where Ronaldo supposedly admits it and then doesn't, then they agree to an NDA and payoff, then she comes back years and years later wanting to prosecute, case reopened, judge rules it be dismissed as it can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt and now she's opened a different lawsuit that she was mentally incapacitated when she signed the NDA.

From the above, I think you have to simply wait for the clusterfeck of a process to finally conclude and then draw judgement. Very different to Giggs, Best etc. even Yorke who bailed on a disabled son.

 

[Devil may care]

Cantona and Rio don't belong in this mix and Ronaldo's case is uncertain, feck the rest.

 

[Amar__]

Don't forget Scholes hiting trees and biting his daughter's toenails.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Don't forget Scholes hiting trees and biting his daughter's toenails.

I thought it was Gary Neville from 80 yards away while he was taking a leak not just a tree.

Might be viewed differently today.

 

[Amar__]

I thought it was Gary Neville from 80 yards away while he was taking a leak not just a tree.

Might be viewed differently today.

So Gary Neville taking a leak in the nature too now.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Not fair to put Cantona in the same bracket as the others. He's definitely far from Greenwood and Giggs.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

So Gary Neville taking a leak in the nature too now.

Maybe Scholes did the right thing all along.

 

[bosnian_red]

I think it's one thing playing for the club, and how the club celebrates them. In cases like Ronaldo's, I think it'd be an entirely fair position for the club if they chose not to plaster his face up every 2 seconds, post about him constantly, treat him like some king. There is a very real possibility that the allegations are true. It's fine to keep playing him and treat him like any old footballer, because nothing is decided about it and there is doubt in the case, but some tact is needed and I think the club has handled it really poorly. They've essentially taken the stance of shoving their head in the sand, pretending like no sexual assault claims exist against him and treat him like a footballing God. That part makes me uneasy more than anything. Stop celebrating him so much, stop tweeting about him constantly or posting his face everywhere (more than any other player in our club without a doubt since he joined). Treat him like any other random player, celebrate his goals but stop making him the face of the club and encouraging youth to look up to him basically. Because there are very serious allegations against him, which nobody can deny.

In cases like Best, well he shouldn't have a statue outside Old Trafford. Giggs shouldn't be invited in as a guest of honor or treated as a legend, because they are scumbag human beings and the last thing you want to brush off. Yes he's done great things as a player, but with all the info out there, the club and supporters should cut all ties to him. No banners, no pictures, no mention of his name (apart from the appearance record list, can't rewrite history), no chants from the fans.

Rio? He was just dumb. Even if he was doing drugs, meh. Personal issues and not trying to be a cheat. Not worth mentioning. Cantona? Fine by me to kick a guy in the face who is being a cnut like that fan. Of course, he was rightly punished and you go through your punishment, but by no means does it tarnish his reputation.

Greenwood? His name should be wiped from the club basically just like Giggs. Giggs is just lucky this all came out after his retirement.

 

[bosnian_red]

The thing with the Ronaldo one is the timeline is so weird. From online reports, Mayorga reported it to the police the next day but wouldn't reveal who she was accusing, they couldn't prove she'd been sexually assaulted but could prove she had had sex. Then there's the bizarre evidence/questionnaire where Ronaldo supposedly admits it and then doesn't, then they agree to an NDA and payoff, then she comes back years and years later wanting to prosecute, case reopened, judge rules it be dismissed as it can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt and now she's opened a different lawsuit that she was mentally incapacitated when she signed the NDA.

From the above, I think you have to simply wait for the clusterfeck of a process to finally conclude and then draw judgement. Very different to Giggs, Best etc. even Yorke who bailed on a disabled son.

On Ronaldo i think a thing that could be done is just toning down the level of ass licking that our club does to him. His face is plastered everywhere, treating him as the face of the club, United social media accounts posting a nauseating amount of Ronaldo content... It comes across like they're ignoring the very real possibility that all the allegations are true, and just blindly sticking by him and shoving it down the world's throat. Just be smart. Fair if people don't want to make a judgement yet... But it's fair to expect people to hold back on the praise a bit, given the situation. Because it sure as shit sends a very bad message to all the victims of sexual abuse around the world. As does inviting Giggs as a guest of honor still though.

Basically, Man United as a club can do a lot more in terms of sending a message against sexual abuse without outright taking a side or making a judgement.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Rio in no way belongs in this conversation. His ban was an absolute farce.

 

[tomaldinho1]

On Ronaldo i think a thing that could be done is just toning down the level of ass licking that our club does to him. His face is plastered everywhere, treating him as the face of the club, United social media accounts posting a nauseating amount of Ronaldo content... It comes across like they're ignoring the very real possibility that all the allegations are true, and just blindly sticking by him and shoving it down the world's throat. Just be smart. Fair if people don't want to make a judgement yet... But it's fair to expect people to hold back on the praise a bit, given the situation. Because it sure as shit sends a very bad message to all the victims of sexual abuse around the world. As does inviting Giggs as a guest of honor still though.

Basically, Man United as a club can do a lot more in terms of sending a message against sexual abuse without outright taking a side or making a judgement.

Agreed. Being affiliated with United is something a player should be desperate for but, in reality, we come across as being desperate to be affiliated with players.

 

[Mickson]

Ronaldo should've never been signed, very sketchy case, I also don't think he's a good person in general and I can't stand this version of Ronaldo as a footballer. MG and Giggs obviously canceled. I don't care about Rio's test, silly yes, but not a moral dilemma for me. Cantona is a fkn legend and the last real footballer.

 

[AndyMUFC86]

He can go and play for Raith Rovers!

 

[SonyaCross493]

People always forget the Van Persie allegations, but he was cleared too. Didn't stop everyone cheering and putting him on a pedestal when he won the league for us. Which fair enough he was cleared in court so was innocent.

Ronaldo was cleared as innocent too and deserves to be treated and given the same benefit of the doubt as Van Persie not just because he's a better footballer but because both of the cases are the same and they was both deemed innocent by criminal courts. And afterwards the Club made Van Persie the face of the club etc and posted on social media all the time

so I don't know why people are getting the knickers in a twist over the club treating Ronaldo the same as Van Persie. Is it because Ronaldo is more famous and high profile because he's GOAT? Or it's after MeToo?! That's not his fault he's done all he can do to clear his name. Sadly women lie and make things up for extortion too especially against famous people and they don't get more famous than Ronaldo. You can't believe an unproven allegation which the court already dismissed without the level of evidence we have seen in the Greenwood case for example.

Cantona was right to do what he did.

But, what about Best?

Probably the biggest cnut of the whole lot and he still has a statue outside the club and an airport named after him.

yeah wasn't Best a proven wbeater?

also unsavoury rumours about when he played in America..

Probably Best was worst of the lot yet nobody mentions it as much as Giggs etc they only mention the legendary player. Romanticism.

also Dwight Yorke refusing to see his disabled son.

Rashford apparently cheated on his girlfriend with 2 women and she caught them in bed..

not every footballer can be Juan Mata sadly.

 

[choccy77]

Ronaldo leaves me feel uncomfortable and I try to forget it but after Sunday it’s making me uncomfortable again

Rio I thought it was very fishy but benefit of the doubt

Giggs has destroyed his legacy

Rio from memory was sneaking off to see a girl and so left the ground to get his leg over basically.

Didn't deserve a ban for stupidity.

 

[Oranges038]

People always forget the Van Persie allegations, but he was cleared too. Didn't stop everyone cheering and putting him on a pedestal when he won the league for us. Which fair enough he was cleared in court so was innocent.



yeah wasn't Best a proven wbeater?

also unsavoury rumours about when he played in America..

Probably Best was worst of the lot yet nobody mentions it as much as Giggs etc they only mention the legendary player. Romanticism.

also Dwight Yorke refusing to see his disabled son.

Rashford apparently cheated on his girlfriend with 2 women and she caught them in bed..

not every footballer can be Juan Mata sadly.

Yes, he probably was. But, don't you know, it was different times and he was a bit of a rogue but also deep down he was a good lad, he just had a problem with the drink.......

Giggs did more and won more the club than Best. Yet, I doubt anyone would want a statue of him outside the stadium or an airport in Wales named after him based on his recent actions.