British + Irish draft: Crappy VS Stobzilla

[Annahnomoss]

Stobzilla

Tactics
We operate in the standard 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 Giles further advanced than Reid and allowing Gray, Johnstone, Sheringham and Shearer to dominate. I feel the centre of my defence has enough about it to deal with the threat of Ian Rush we have pace and legs in all areas to hit on the break should we get penned in and the quality of distribution in the 4 of Reid, Giles, England and Hansen is fantastic, we will find our outlet passes quickly and be swift in taking advantage. But we also have the capability of slowing the game right down and keeping possession when needed.

Stobzilla player profiles -

Spoiler

Ron Springett -

Spoiler

England's number one shortly before the 1966 finals getting 33 caps, made 384 appearances for Sheffield Wednesday and is widely regarded by their fan base as their greatest ever goalkeeper.

Danny McGrain - 659 competitive games for Celtic between 1970 and 1987. He won seven League Championships, five Scottish Cups and two Scottish League Cups. McGrain is regarded as one of Scotland's greatest players and award winning sports writer Hugh McIlvanney commented, "Anybody who saw him at his best had the unmistakeable impression of watching a great player, probably one who had no superior anywhere in the world."

Alan Hansen - In Hansen's illustrious playing career for Liverpool, his winners medals include 8 league titles, 3 European Cups, 2 FA Cups and 4 League Cups. Perhaps the classiest defender in the draft capable of bringing the ball out of defence and more comfortable on the ball than most midfielders.

Mike England - An FA Cup winner in 1967, League up in 1971 and 1973, either side of winning the first ever Uefa Cup in 1972, It is often said that Spurs never replaced Mike England until Sol Campbell came along, high praise indeed. Much the same as Hansen with a bit of added bite, the left footer adds a more defined ariel presence as well as fantastic ability on the ball.

Stuart Pearce - Best known for his spell at Nottingham Forest, where he regularly captained the team and became the club's most capped International, making 76 of his 78 appearances for England while with the club and captaining the side on 9 occasions. A free kick specialist, like McGrain on the other side, offers tireless legs and an attacking threat.

Jimmy Johnstone - One the legendary "Lisbon Lions" and former 3rd place in European Footballer of the Year voting. He made 308 league appearances for Celtic, scoring 82 goals and playing a further 200+ in Cups and European Competition. Regarded as Celtic's best ever player.

One story goes that Johnstone had a fear of flying, Jock Stein told him that is they won their first leg european match against Red Star by more than 3 goals, he would not have to travel to Yugoslavia for the 2nd leg. He produced an outstanding performance scoring 2 and assisting the other 3 in a 5-1 victory.

Peter Reid - The heartbeat of arguably Everton's best ever side. A battler in the middle of the park with a fantastic passing range, he was once voted 4th in World Player of the Year behind Michel Platini, Preben Elkjar and Bernd Schuster. Not bad company. He was also voted 1985 PFA Players Player of the Year.

Johnny Giles - Amazingly calm player, who again, like Reid has a fantastic and creative passing range but can also handle himself when he needs to, one half of English footballs best club centre midfield partnerships. Their pairing helped yield several major trophies in the most successful era in Leeds' history. By strange coincidence, Giles and Bremner would both score exactly 115 goals for the club

Eddie Gray - In 1968 he was in the Leeds team which won the League Cup and the Fairs Cup double, scoring winning goals in both semi finals, including a memorable individual goal against Brian Clough's Derby County in the semi final of the League cup. He was then an important part of the team that won League championship a year later, making 33 appearances and scoring 5 goals, during a season in which United would score a record number of championship points and lose only two matches along the way to conquering the title. Voted 3rd greatest Leeds player of all time behind a certain Bremner and Charles.

"When he plays on snow, he doesn't leave footprints" - Don Revie

Teddy Sheringham - 898 appearances and 355 goals, with probably untold amounts of assists via quick thinking, flick ons and knock downs, Teddy provided the perfect foil for whichever striker he played with, unplayable on his day, both in the air and on the deck. Was finally named PFA Player of the year in 2001 and the age of 35 after just having his most accomplished season in a United shirt.

Alan Shearer - The last great English number 9. 734 games and 379 goals in all competitions. He resumes what is probably England's greatest strike duo with Teddy Sheringham. A scorer of all types of goals, but also brilliant at holding up play and bringing others into the game. When he hits them, they stay hit.

-----------------------------------Stobzilla----------------------------------------------------------------Team Crappy----

Team Crappy

Defense

• Ferdinand is the second best defender in this draft after Moore.Bruce is the ideal partner for him and remains perhaps the best English player never to earn a NT cap.
• Phil Neal, one of the most successful English footballer of all time (he played in all 4 European cup wins), was a mainstay for Liverpool in their glory run. Nicknamed Zico due to his penchant for scoring crucial goals.
• Irwin himself needs no introduction , as reliable as they come and an asset while attacking too.
• Final wall in front of the goal is Andy Goram, regarded as the best Rangers' keeper of all time.

Attack -

• Two young stars in Bale and Rooney need no introduction. Both remain somewhat underrated for different reasons even though they are easily one of the most talented players to come out of their respective countries.
• Ian Rush, Liverpool's and Wales' all time top scorer, is perfect to lead the line and go up against any defense in the draft. Rooney is the perfect player to establish a similar partnership with him ala Dalglish.
• Patsy "Mighty Atom" Gallacher, an unknown to all here would be ramping it up on the right. Any doubts about his prowess can be quelled by the fact that he had a scottish cup final named after him
  Read more about his legend here

Midfield -

• Jim Baxter would be the lynchpin of the midfield. 'Slim' Jim Baxteris best remembered for his performance at Wembley in 1967 when, as Scotland defeated world champions England 3-2, he engaged in a bout of keepie-uppies for the amusement of the Tartan Army. It was the perfect encapsulation of an arrogant, self-destructive player who, for many, remains the most gifted Scotland has seen. In his prime,Baxter was known for his ability to raise a team's morale, his good tactical vision, precise passing and ability to send opponents the wrong way and also was good in slide tackle. Baxter played for Rangers from 1960 to 1965 and during this period the team won the Scottish League Championship in 1961, 1963 and 1964,and the Scottish Cup in 1964. In 18 "Old Firm" games against local rivals Celtic – 10 Scottish League, five Scottish League Cup and three Scottish Cup matches – he was only twice on the losing side. Read more about his genius here
• WC 66 Winner Martin Peters would be his partner. UK's first 200k footballer, he was known as "the complete midfielder" as he could pass the ball well with either foot, was good in the air and difficult to mark because of his movement. A FK specialist to boot. Read more about him here

Summary

The team will be playing an attacking game with the goal of scoring more than the opposition. Individually all 4 defenders are solid and can hold their own against any player. Baxter and Peters are complete midfielders who will aid in both attacking and defensive phase. Baxter and Rooneyprimarily will be lynchpins who will dictate the play when the team has the all. Bale and Gallacher both possess the ability to take on any defender on their own and also provide a presence out wide to stretch the play and create space for others. All 4 attacking players are also capable of converting any chance.[/spoiler]

 

[Stobzilla]

Take out the named match ups in the tactics plz

 

[Joga Bonito]

Not too much in this one.

Not too enamored about crappy's midfield duo like I've stated before and he'll probably have to replace Rooney with a holding midfielder if he progresses imo. At least they are not playing against a midfield trio and they should be able to hold their own against Stob's midfield duo with the help of Rooney's work rate from a defensive point of view.

His wingers (Gallacher in all likelihood) supplied by Baxter will probably be his best bet here.

Gallacher against Pearce could prove to be a mismatch. Pearce was a commited defender but always found him lacking defensively. It's also a shame for Stob that his best player, Johnstone, is up against Irwin.

Sheringham's intelligence and the lack of a designated holding player in Crappy's team will probably bring some joy for Stobzilla imo.

Will see how this plays out before voting but leaning towards crappy for now.

 

[crappycraperson]

Not too much in this one.

Not too enamored about crappy's midfield duo like I've stated before and he'll probably have to replace Rooney with a holding midfielder if he progresses imo. At least they are not playing against a midfield trio and they should be able to hold their own against Stob's midfield duo with the help of Rooney's work rate from a defensive point of view.

His wingers (Gallacher in all likelihood) supplied by Baxter will probably be his best bet here.

Gallacher against Pearce could prove to be a mismatch. Pearce was a commited defender but always found him lacking defensively. It's also a shame for Stob that his best player, Johnstone, is up against Irwin.

Sheringham's intelligence and the lack of a designated holding player in Crappy's team will probably bring some joy for Stobzilla imo.

Will see how this plays out before voting but leaning towards crappy for now.

Pretty much said it yourself mate, Gallacher against Pearce is a clear mis match. I think Rio + Bruce as a pair are good enough to take on his strikers.

 

[Annahnomoss]

A very even game here. Two very similar teams here and it'd be a very back and forth game with both teams wingers and strikers looking a number too big for the defenses. Any specifics on how you will defend and attack here Crap and Stob?

 

[Joga Bonito]

Pretty much said it yourself mate, Gallacher against Pearce is a clear mis match. I think Rio + Bruce as a pair are good enough to take on his strikers.

That is a good point as well. Bruce is exactly the type of rugged stopper that you'd want against Shearer.

Sheringham was a really wily and intelligent player capable of ghosting in, linking up and with incredible movement off the ball etc. He never relied on his physical qualities but rather his intelligence and quickness of thought. He faces Rio though, an impeccable defender with great positioning and reading, who won't be caught out too much. Sheringham could find some joy dropping deep where you don't have a holding mid but ideally you'd want him further up the pitch, linking up with Shearer and the forwards where he can create the most damage.

They won't completely take that duo out of the game but they will do a pretty good job there I figure.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I'll vote for Joga so far for being most in depth and interested!

 

[Joga Bonito]

I'll vote for Joga so far for being most in depth and interested!

I'm just bored...

 

[Annahnomoss]

So as soon as this finishes we can initiate auctions on the reinforcement round like always?

 

[antohan]

What strikes me straight off the bat is how both Ferdinand-Bruce and Shearer-Sheringham are lined up the opposite way to how I would. Not sure if they lined up like this in their previous games but it begs one HUGE question:

- is Ferdinand there to provide better support against the more dangerous winger? I'd agree Irwin-Ferdinand completely shuts out any concerns over Johnstone.

but then,

- if Ferdinand is left and up against Shearer, then Bruce is up against Sheringham. I buy how the CB pair complements well to face the joint threat of that proven partnership... but they are the wrong way around, or Ferdinand isn't covering Irwin after all.

Which one is it @crappycraperson?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Gallacher against Pearce could prove to be a mismatch. Pearce was a commited defender but always found him lacking defensively. It's also a shame for Stob that his best player, Johnstone, is up against Irwin.

This is a bit nuts, surely. Jimmy Johnstone is one of the best dribblers in British football history - a world beater, in fact.

Irwin is insanely bigged up on here. Just saying. He was Mr Reliable, not Mr GOAT.

 

[antohan]

This is a bit nuts, surely. Jimmy Johnstone is one of the best dribblers in British football history - a world beater, in fact.

Irwin is insanely bigged up on here. Just saying. He was Mr Reliable, not Mr GOAT.

In fairness, Mr Reliable was so because he had the sort of awareness and composure which would be critical against someone like Johnstone. Wouldn't be enough, sure, he wasn't exactly a pesky man-marker, but if you add to that Rio then it all ties up pretty nicely.

The only full game I recall seeing of Johnstone's was against Peñarol, he was quite clearly their best player and dangerman -by a distance- and gave Caetano a torrid time. He too was a Mr. Reliable and pulled a superb performance, but he still got beat quite a few times... only to find Don Elías on his way, who just stood his ground watching on as Jinky twisted and turned and hinted directions and dropped his shoulder... and then Don Elías would get bored and disposses him.

I'm not putting down Johnstone here, he was still probably one of if not the best player on the pitch, but the key to handling him is the infinite composure of a defender in a similar mould to Elías Ricardo Figueroa. I think Irwin-Rio accomplishes that, the tricky part is how that leaves Shearer on Rio and Teddy on Bruce.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In fairness, Mr Reliable was so because he had the sort of awareness and composure which would be critical against someone like Johnstone. Wouldn't be enough, sure, he wasn't exactly a pesky man-marker, but if you add to that Rio then it all ties up pretty nicely.

The only full game I recall seeing of Johnstone's was against Peñarol, he was quite clearly their best player and dangerman -by a distance- and gave Caetano a torrid time. He too was a Mr. Reliable and pulled a superb performance, but he still got beat quite a few times... only to find Don Elías on his way, who just stood his ground watching on as Jinky twisted and turned and hinted directions and dropped his shoulder... and then Don Elías would get bored and disposses him.

I'm not putting down Johnstone here, he was still probably one of if not the best player on the pitch, but the key to handling him is the infinite composure of a defender in a similar mould to Elías Ricardo Figueroa. I think Irwin-Rio accomplishes that, the tricky part is how that leaves Shearer on Rio and Teddy on Bruce.

Fair enough, that. I just reacted to the wording of the post - made it sound as though Irwin was a demigod. And he wasn't. He is overrated on here given that his one exceptional quality was his consistency.

 

[Jammydodger7]

I think Crappy's defence would be able to cope with Stobzilla's attack more than Stobzilla would with Crappys attack.

 

[antohan]

I think Crappy's defence would be able to cope with Stobzilla's attack more than Stobzilla would with Crappys attack.

Really? Ian Rush and Wayne Rooney? It's nowhere near as good a partnership as Shearer-Sheringham. I find Bale a bit inconsequential and don't think he would work all that well with Rooney in the hole (Rooney as the striker would be a better fit). Then this Patsy fella, was he better than Johnstone? Do you really believe that? He played in the days of the five man frontlines and basketball scores.

So that makes Stobz' a better attacking unit, quite clearly IMO. And an attacking unit supported by a stronger and better balanced midfield pair.

It would take crappy's defence being significantly better to tilt it back, surely. But McGrain is arguably the better rightback, Hansen is Rio's equal by all means, the only thing Bruce has on England is gifting us six points every season, and the only caveat in crappy's favour is Irwin will be more composed and a more suitable leftback to deal with a tricky winger than Pearce. In fairness to Psycho though, he always came through when up against it, if only out of sheer-bloody-mindedness.

I don't see it really, particularly when it is still unclear whether it is Bruce or Rio dealing with Shearer. If Rio, both Shearer and Teddy are running rampant. If it is Bruce, then he too is the cover not if but when Irwin gets beaten, which sends alarm bells ringing TBH.

 

[crappycraperson]

A very even game here. Two very similar teams here and it'd be a very back and forth game with both teams wingers and strikers looking a number too big for the defenses. Any specifics on how you will defend and attack here Crap and Stob?

I think Sherrigham is getting way too much credit here. Rooney is easily better player than him. Yes, you have SAS as a sort of proven partnership but that was for a England team that did not achieve anything. On the other hand, like I said in my write up, Rooney has the qualities to strike up a similar partnership with Rush ala Dalglish, that pretty much is the point of a fantasy draft. So yeah, I do think Rooney and Rush have the potential to striker a better partnership than SAS. I also think my back 4 as a defensive unit is better than his.
Then Irwin on Johnstone against Gallacher taking on Pearce is simply a better match up for me. That's not too say Irwin will completely shut out his winger and my winger would beat his full back everytime. Just that it is more likely that Patsy will create or score than Johnstone with.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I've went for Stobz here. Crppy's exceptional defence nearly swayed me the other way, but ulimately I see Stobz's midifeld out-competing Crappy's.

 

[antohan]

I've went for Stobz here. Crppy's exceptional defence nearly swayed me the other way, but ulimately I see Stobz's midifeld out-competing Crappy's.

It's quite interesting, all these years moaning about not having a midfield usually got reflected in drafts. But here we have a proliferation of diamonds with wingers and #10s in the wide roles, and the fabled "midfield battle" getting overlooked. Not sure whether it's a fad or just people not really being acquainted with many of the CMs. I certainly haven't paid too much attention to that because there's usually one of not two I frankly have noo idea about. Stobz' pair looks a right handful though.

 

[Stobzilla]

I think Sherrigham is getting way too much credit here. Rooney is easily better player than him. Yes, you have SAS as a sort of proven partnership but that was for a England team that did not achieve anything. On the other hand, like I said in my write up, Rooney has the qualities to strike up a similar partnership with Rush ala Dalglish, that pretty much is the point of a fantasy draft. So yeah, I do think Rooney and Rush have the potential to striker a better partnership than SAS. I also think my back 4 as a defensive unit is better than his.
Then Irwin on Johnstone against Gallacher taking on Pearce is simply a better match up for me. That's not too say Irwin will completely shut out his winger and my winger would beat his full back everytime. Just that it is more likely that Patsy will create or score than Johnstone with.

I like Rooney.

But "easily" ?

Come off it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I really am not sure what formation crappy is playing. Can you clarify crappy?

From the picture it looks to be a 4-2-3-1
From the write up, it looks to be a 4-2-4

From what I read on Baxter, he looks to be best fit in as a CM playmaker, a la Fabregas/Scholes. It goes well with crappy's tactics of just outscore your oppoents, but don't think he can retain possession of control to score that many.

 

[crappycraperson]

I really am not sure what formation crappy is playing. Can you clarify crappy?

From the picture it looks to be a 4-2-3-1
From the write up, it looks to be a 4-2-4

From what I read on Baxter, he looks to be best fit in as a CM playmaker, a la Fabregas/Scholes. It goes well with crappy's tactics of just outscore your oppoents, but don't think he can retain possession of control to score that many.

It's a 4231. What do you think is required to retain possession? It's never about just 2 midfielders you can play that will help you do it. It is about the personnel and shape of the whole team. Rio-Baxter-Peters-Rooney spine through the middle gives me a spine to have plenty of possession. Neither side is going to camp up in either half so someone like Baxter would see enough of the ball to work his magic. That's the thing about players like him, they make room and space to play that pass to either of the wide men or someone like Rooney is better position.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

What do you think is required to retain possession?

I don't know to be sure. I'm just basing this on things I read. feel free to correct me, if I get things muddled up.

1) Haven't actually watched any of Baxter / Giles, but they look to be equally talented. Reid being more defensive minded than Peters would serve to add more balance than your middle was the conclusion I came to.
2) Rooney as #10. I love Rooney and have defended him in the Rooney thread consistently. I think he is better upfront than in a playmaking role. In this role, he will not be as effective as Daglish (like you mention in OP)

 

[Pat_Mustard]

It's quite interesting, all these years moaning about not having a midfield usually got reflected in drafts. But here we have a proliferation of diamonds with wingers and #10s in the wide roles, and the fabled "midfield battle" getting overlooked. Not sure whether it's a fad or just people not really being acquainted with many of the CMs. I certainly haven't paid too much attention to that because there's usually one of not two I frankly have noo idea about. Stobz' pair looks a right handful though.

There's almost certainly a fad element there, which in fairness is one of the things that keeps the drafts interesting. EAP has been a big benificiary of everyone's recent hard on for the diamond with converted wingers!

 

[crappycraperson]

I don't know to be sure. I'm just basing this on things I read. feel free to correct me, if I get things muddled up.

1) Haven't actually watched any of Baxter / Giles, but they look to be equally talented. Reid being more defensive minded than Peters would serve to add more balance than your middle was the conclusion I came to.
2) Rooney as #10. I love Rooney and have defended him in the Rooney thread consistently. I think he is better upfront than in a playmaking role. In this role, he will not be as effective as Daglish (like you mention in OP)

Your question was about possession. Look at the current Madrid midfield of Kroos-Modric. None of those two are proper defensive midfielders, yet they don't have any issues with retaining a good amount of possession. The implication a destroyer of some kind is a must have is wrong. There may be a disadvantages of not having one but to assume the whole side would collapse due to it is not correct.
Dalglish himself was more of a second striker/forward than a AM. Rooney would perform the exact same role here, playing in the hole behind the striker. For that role you can have either players like Rooney/Dalglish or players like Silva/Laudrup. With latter you get the players contributing more to MF battle, with former you get him occuping or pulling away a central defenders at times with somewhat reduced contribution to midfield battle. Rooney may be a bit dim off field but on it, he is one of the best when it comes to adapting his own game with respect to his strike/forward partner. He has done it now for Ruud, Saha, Ronaldo, Tevez, RVP at United. The only player he failed to strike one was Berba since the latter himself wanted to drop off the forward lines.

 

[crappycraperson]

There's almost certainly a fad element there, which in fairness is one of the things that keeps the drafts interesting. EAP has been a big benificiary of everyone's recent hard on for the diamond with converted wingers!

I think we need some new people to inject new ideas. It is starting to get monotonous with same people banging on about same things every draft. I like the addition of harms, Skizzo and joga in that respect. I also like Annah's contribution to match threads.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I think we need some new people to inject new ideas. It is starting to get monotonous with same people banging on about same things every draft. I like the addition of harms, Skizzo and joga in that respect. I also like Annah's contribution to match threads.

New faces are always welcome, but I don't feel its really gone stale at all. Even the regulars, myself included, are often changing their norms and favourites as regards players and formations.

 

[Joga Bonito]

This is a bit nuts, surely. Jimmy Johnstone is one of the best dribblers in British football history - a world beater, in fact.

Irwin is insanely bigged up on here. Just saying. He was Mr Reliable, not Mr GOAT.

I rate Irwin extremely highly probably more so than others. He had an immaculate sense of positioning and reading of the game with impeccable tackling and ridiculous consistency. I'd always thought he was underrated because he wasn't as imposing or 'explosive' as other defenders. He wasn't too fancy and wouldn't catch your eye but he was ridiculously efficient and always got the job done. I think his unassuming style and heck even his absurd consistency cost him some plaudits tbh. I'd actually rate him on level with Cole and as the best full back in this draft. I'd rather have a composed defender with excellent reading of the game rather than a tough tackling boisterous defender squaring up against Jinky Johnstone.

Make no mistake about it, Johnstone is a brilliant player and I'm not underrating him at all. He had a phenomenal burst off the mark in combination with great dribbling and technical skills. He's probably the best player on the pitch right now and the best right winger in this draft after Finney and Matthews. It's just a measure of how highly I rate Irwin. It's quite possible that im overrating him but I really rated him very highly and think he's generally underrated tbh.

 

[Raees]

There's almost certainly a fad element there, which in fairness is one of the things that keeps the drafts interesting. EAP has been a big benificiary of everyone's recent hard on for the diamond with converted wingers!

Di Maria has had a massive impact in relation to that point.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I rate Irwin extremely highly probably more so than others. He had an immaculate sense of positioning and reading of the game with impeccable tackling and ridiculous consistency. I'd always thought he was underrated because he wasn't as imposing or 'explosive' as other defenders. He wasn't too fancy and wouldn't catch your eye but he was ridiculously efficient and always got the job done. I think his unassuming style and heck even his absurd consistency cost him some plaudits tbh. I'd actually rate him on level with Cole and as the best full back in this draft. I'd rather have a composed defender with excellent reading of the game rather than a tough tackling boisterous defender squaring up against Jinky Johnstone.

Make no mistake about it, Johnstone is a brilliant player and I'm not underrating him at all. He had a phenomenal burst off the mark in combination with great dribbling and technical skills. He's probably the best player on the pitch right now and the best right winger in this draft after Finney and Matthews. It's just a measure of how highly I rate Irwin. It's quite possible that im overrating him but I really rated him very highly and think he's generally underrated tbh.

Fair enough. I don't agree that he's generally underrated, though. In fact, you rarely hear anyone say a bad word about Irwin - and why should they? He had no glaring weaknesses as a player and was a humble, likeable sort of bloke to boot.

For me, if Irwin did have a weakness, it was that his calmness (his unhurried style) at times approached something like passiveness almost.

Anyway, like I said above, the reason I reacted to your post was more about Johnstone than about Irwin. Johnstone isn't the sort of player you can expect to contain with anything less than an absolute beast on him. And I don't think Irwin quite fits that bill. Much as I love him, he wasn't Maldini. And that would be the sort you'd need in order to say that Johnstone would be positively hampered. In my opinion.

That said, anto's point is a good one. It's not Johnstone versus Irwin as such - it's about the defence in general and their ability to deal with Stobz' attack (including Johnstone, as the most dangerous man).

 

[crappycraperson]

A 58 min documentary on Jim Baxter, who according to Fergie was possibly the best Scottish player of all time.


A shorter 6 minute video -
which shows his passing range, control on the ball, ability to dribble and his comfort playing deep into his own half or just outside opposition's box. Some great footage in both the videos.

His keepy uppie against England

 

[Jammydodger7]

Really? Ian Rush and Wayne Rooney? It's nowhere near as good a partnership as Shearer-Sheringham. I find Bale a bit inconsequential and don't think he would work all that well with Rooney in the hole (Rooney as the striker would be a better fit). Then this Patsy fella, was he better than Johnstone? Do you really believe that? He played in the days of the five man frontlines and basketball scores.

So that makes Stobz' a better attacking unit, quite clearly IMO. And an attacking unit supported by a stronger and better balanced midfield pair.

It would take crappy's defence being significantly better to tilt it back, surely. But McGrain is arguably the better rightback, Hansen is Rio's equal by all means, the only thing Bruce has on England is gifting us six points every season, and the only caveat in crappy's favour is Irwin will be more composed and a more suitable leftback to deal with a tricky winger than Pearce. In fairness to Psycho though, he always came through when up against it, if only out of sheer-bloody-mindedness.

I don't see it really, particularly when it is still unclear whether it is Bruce or Rio dealing with Shearer. If Rio, both Shearer and Teddy are running rampant. If it is Bruce, then he too is the cover not if but when Irwin gets beaten, which sends alarm bells ringing TBH.

Out of all four strikers, Shearer is the best, but only marginally over Rooney....between Sheringham and Rush, I think Rush was considerably better!! I know he's an ex United player and scored in that great 99 final but he's being greatly overrated here!

Again on wings, Jimmy Johnstone and Gray were great player but I would argue that Bale is just as good if not better and in time when he retires he'll be appreciated a lot more, I think he'd cause the full backs more trouble than Johnstone or Gray but It is hard to pick. I think current players don't get enough credit, it's only when they retire we realise how good they were, just like Rooney, soon to be England and Uniteds all time top scorer!

I think Stobz CM is better. But it all comes down to the defence and I think Rio and Bruce would be an unbelievable partnership! A lot of people would say they'd be United's greatest.

When it comes down to it, there's very little in it and if they really played it would probably be a draw I think, however we don't have a draw option so I picked Crappy as I feel if anyone would score it'd be his team.

 

[Gio]

1) Haven't actually watched any of Baxter / Giles, but they look to be equally talented. Reid being more defensive minded than Peters would serve to add more balance than your middle was the conclusion I came to.

Baxter's brilliant but he really needs someone to do the hard yards for him. Peters is a useful player but you'd want somebody with singularly defensive qualities, a Stiles for example, to complement Baxter's strengths and cover for his weaknesses.

 

[crappycraperson]

Baxter's brilliant but he really needs someone to do the hard yards for him. Peters is a useful player but you'd want somebody with singularly defensive qualities, a Stiles for example, to complement Baxter's strengths and cover for his weaknesses.

That may be true. But I don't understand the notion that this MF won't work at all. That simply won't be the case. Good players through footballing history adapt to their roles. Look at Scholes-Carrick pairing for example. The latter delegated the attacking bit of the game much more to Schloes when paired to him and it was Scholes you saw making the occasional run forward or pinging those diagonals. But you saw Carrick step up much more when he was paired next to Fletcher and taking reigns of passing through the middle for the team.

Peters was a disciplined hardworking midfielder. No he won't transform himself into Stiles, nor you would want him to. But he will adapt his game to compliment his midfield partner. Like I said in our match day thread, Modric-Kroos pairing is very good example of similar MF pair. Ideally people would always want someone like Alonso paired alongside either of them rather than those 2 together. But they have shown that it is not must thing to do.

 

[antohan]

That said, anto's point is a good one. It's not Johnstone versus Irwin as such - it's about the defence in general and their ability to deal with Stobz' attack (including Johnstone, as the most dangerous man).

The annoying thing is it seems to have been left at that. On the one hand, that Rio-Bruce are a good fit for Shearer-Sheringham and, on the other, that Irwin-Rio is a good pair to deal with Johnstone.

The problem is both can't coexist the way Stobzilla has lined up. It's one or the other, and crappy is blatantly ignoring it.

 

[MJJ]

Went for crappy, I dont particularly like his midfield but having rooney instead of sheringham means he wont get overrun through the middle. Both sides have a really strong flank and v.good defense but gave the edge to crappy due to him having a deadlier striker.

 

[antohan]

Out of all four strikers, Shearer is the best, but only marginally over Rooney....between Sheringham and Rush, I think Rush was considerably better!! I know he's an ex United player and scored in that great 99 final but he's being greatly overrated here!

Again on wings, Jimmy Johnstone and Gray were great player but I would argue that Bale is just as good if not better and in time when he retires he'll be appreciated a lot more, I think he'd cause the full backs more trouble than Johnstone or Gray but It is hard to pick. I think current players don't get enough credit, it's only when they retire we realise how good they were, just like Rooney, soon to be England and Uniteds all time top scorer!

I think Stobz CM is better. But it all comes down to the defence and I think Rio and Bruce would be an unbelievable partnership! A lot of people would say they'd be United's greatest.

When it comes down to it, there's very little in it and if they really played it would probably be a draw I think, however we don't have a draw option so I picked Crappy as I feel if anyone would score it'd be his team.

First paragraph, it's not about comparing individuals but partnerships.

Second paragraph, it's not individuals or only partnerships, but setups. Does Bale + Rooney in the hole work for you? I think they overlap significantly in a non-value adding way.

Third paragraph, same as I say above. Rio-Bruce is a different proposition if Rio is taking Teddy and Bruce taking Shearer, than the other way round. The problem is the "right way around" pulls Rio away from covering Irwin against the best player on the pitch. It's one or the other and both are a problem of significant magnitude.

 

[crappycraperson]

The annoying thing is it seems to have been left at that. On the one hand, that Rio-Bruce are a good fit for Shearer-Sheringham and, on the other, that Irwin-Rio is a good pair to deal with Johnstone.

The problem is both can't coexist the way Stobzilla has lined up. It's one or the other, and crappy is blatantly ignoring it.

It has not been ignored. My answer to Annah, covered your question as well. My back 4 won't man mark anyone and it is a defensive unit. Both CBs are largely occupied by the opposition's central strike partnership. Irwin as a full back is strong enough to deal with Johnstone on his own. All these things do not mean that on occasion if Irwin is beaten, Rio can not step out to take on the winger. Point of having someone like Rio there is that he is smart enough to decide if he can leave Bruce alone in the box to aid out wide or forward.

What's ridiculous is that since Stob is not here, I am having to field all questions.

 

[Stobzilla]

In my defence, I'm at work

 

[Joga Bonito]

What's ridiculous is that since Stob is not here, I am having to field all questions.

Shh you are doing it all wrong.

 

[crappycraperson]

In my defence, I'm at work

So am I