British + Irish draft : MJJ vs Barney (Group D)

[Skizzo]

Just came across this . Barney's been excellent to draft with and we've both had equal input on this team. He's been surprisingly objective and he's knowledgeable as well.

We were supposed to alternate managing the 2 matches. I took charge of the first one but unfortunately he was busy for the second one which meant I had to step in.

It was said tongue in cheek. Pat has taken over for both of our games so far also, due to me being busy for the first game, and completely unaware that the second was being out up. I dont judge

 

[Joga Bonito]

I agree, they looked beast-like in the drafting and you know the write-ups will be on point when Joga is there so I was expecting a team that would absolutely maul the lesser and go out swinging to win against the best. The attempt to balance their naturally adept offense with a defensive left back and shackling Souness further back kind of took away their main competitive advantage.

Agree with you to a certain extent. We really wanted to let Souness loose as a marauding box to box but we faced two centrally jammed teams with strong midfields where we simply couldn't afford to do so.

In hindsight, we should have stayed away from the 4-4-2 and not have stubbornly stuck with Keegan. I began to appreciate him more after doing some research on him for this draft and just decided to stick with him. He wasn't rated too highly though and perhaps rightly so since he came head to head with Stiles and Raisbeck.

Should have started with Auld in both matches as part of a midfield trio to gain better control of the midfield and free up Scholes-Souness more. That was a mistake on our part. Auld had phenomenal work rate, defensive ability, physicality, vision, pace and good goalscoring ability. We wouldn't have lost too much from the move except for a bit of presence in the final third but then again, we would have had so much more to gain as a whole and tactically.

I don't think the defensive nature of Greig was a problem though and he was playing more as a left sided centre back anyway. Esp since none of our opponents had any significant wing presence and also Armfield was providing balance bombing down the right, with Barnes on the left capable of holding his own single handedly. Besides Greig was more required centrally than out wide in these 2 matched.

 

[Joga Bonito]

It was said tongue in cheek. Pat has taken over for both of our games so far also, due to me being busy for the first game, and completely unaware that the second was being out up. I dont judge

NP mate.

 

[antohan]

I really dislike that kind of talk in general. "Who do you have on the bench? How can we as voters change your team to the better?". One thing if it is a quick note of "I don't like that you did this" but actively laying out the blue print of the entire operation I think is a bit over the top.

Like you say he should have disrupted it or frankly just stated that it wasn't too kind to him to have that length and depth on that sort of conversation.

The problem is people get bored, particularly with one sided games so the only interesting thing to do is playing manager and tinkering around with the lost cause. Everyone would rather see it get closer and United fans certainly love a good come back. Of course, when it starts you go hands off and leave them to it but almost the entire time MJJ was far behind and didn't get any votes from the change until long after.

I've done my fair share of these, in similar conditions. Just ask @Gio how he managed to lose a game sporting Rivaldo, Platini, Moreno, Xavi and Davids just because I made the entire thread about comparing our vintage strikers, making people focus on that aspect of the game... and then brought on Rivelino and switched Henry upfront. Everyone loved it, it screamed sex and goals, and had by now completely forgotten what Gio's lineup was!

 

[antohan]

Agreed .

Tbh I thought it was mostly negative scrutiny on how to improve his team and pointing out the slight lack of balance in his team. I'd assumed people liked my team and just left it at that. Just felt weird randomly bigging up my team or posting a compilation vid when no one was talking about our team.

When I signed off after the United match it was 8-4 to us and it was fine. Nothing to add to or say at that point really. I logged on later to see us losing 8-11 with only Chester giving his reasons for voting for Mjj (he did change his vote later though) and it really left me shocked tbh . The thread had hardly been bumped between that time.

Point taken though, should have been more disruptive and not let discussions been so one-sided. I'm a draft newbie still

Anyway it was a group of death and was bound to be close. Lost 2 matches by a single vote. Bloody tight games. Great teams with EAP's excellent diamond and Mjj's team with top notch individuals which is probably 1 or 2 signings away from being a formidable team with good balance.

Weird, maybe, but you do realise therein lies the problem...

I echo other people's sentiments re: how much better you looked straight out of the draft. The fundamental problem was the other two had sexier/more entertaining things to engage people, while you wound up looking a bit boring with your primary asset (the CM pair) digging deep and off their natural game.

 

[antohan]

Should have started with Auld in both matches as part of a midfield trio to gain better control of the midfield and free up Scholes-Souness more. That was a mistake on our part.

TBH, I literally had no idea who he was, never registered him, and didn't even notice he had been drafted. I really don't know that Celtic side particularly well TBH. It has clearly been a draft favourite to research given the nation restriction but I couldn't list more than 3-4 of their players off the top of my head. Keegan was fine, the issue is you can't go 4-4-2 and have the midfielders sitting back, it is safer yes, but it makes it completely break down.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Weird, maybe, but you do realise therein lies the problem...

I echo other people's sentiments re: how much better you looked straight out of the draft. The fundamental problem was the other two had sexier/more entertaining things to engage people, while you wound up looking a bit boring with your primary asset (the CM pair) digging deep and off their natural game.

There simply wasn't any other way to have employed them in both these games... Scholes for me was at his prime as a deeper playmaker.

 

[Joga Bonito]

TBH, I literally had no idea who he was, never registered him, and didn't even notice he had been drafted. I really don't know that Celtic side particularly well TBH. It has clearly been a draft favourite to research given the nation restriction but I couldn't list more than 3-4 of their players off the top of my head. Keegan was fine, the issue is you can't go 4-4-2 and have the midfielders sitting back, it is safer yes, but it makes it completely break down.

Just check out the European cup final against Inter. Read the write up on Auld at the top of this page if you are intersted to know more about him.

Agreed and like I've said before I would have used them in more attacking roles had it been a more conventional match up. It just doesn't make sense to play them in their natural roles when you look at his midfield trio and the Dalglish-Charlton pair.

It made more sense to sit back slightly deeper and hit them through the wings where we had the edge. Souness was a brilliant player but he won't have as much joy attacking through the middle against Robson-Whiteside-Raisbeck in relative to my excellent wingers who'd be isolated against their full back more often than not with great passers in my side providing service. The wing was my best route to goal imo.

 

[Gio]

I thought the midfield set-up was fine. Franklin and O'Leary had sufficient pace to enable a high line while Keegan's energy and appetite offered plenty of support. The conditions were there to allow Souness and Scholes to shine.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I can't believe Barney and Joga have gone out. I had them pegged as favourites to win the whole thing. I'm semi-regretting voting against them to be honest. If I'd seen their substitution I'd probably voted the other way or done my customary "let's sleep on it and miss the deadline" thing instead.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I thought the midfield set-up was fine. Franklin and O'Leary had sufficient pace to enable a high line while Keegan's energy and appetite offered plenty of support. The conditions were there to allow Souness and Scholes to shine.

I'm generally a supporter of the good old 4-4-2, but with two very attacking wingers and facing MJJ's freaky number of top quality attacking midfielders/second strikers I felt they could use the extra man in midifeld with Auld.

 

[antohan]

I thought the midfield set-up was fine. Franklin and O'Leary had sufficient pace to enable a high line while Keegan's energy and appetite offered plenty of support. The conditions were there to allow Souness and Scholes to shine.

Indeed, and it goes pear-shapped the moment you say you are digging deep. You are handing over the initiative, acknowledging a weakness or inferiority which, frankly, wasn't really clear cut.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

In hindsight, we should have stayed away from the 4-4-2 and not have stubbornly stuck with Keegan. I began to appreciate him more after doing some research on him for this draft and just decided to stick with him. He wasn't rated too highly though and perhaps rightly so since he came head to head with Stiles and Raisbeck.

Should have started with Auld in both matches as part of a midfield trio to gain better control of the midfield and free up Scholes-Souness more. That was a mistake on our part. Auld had phenomenal work rate, defensive ability, physicality, vision, pace and good goalscoring ability. We wouldn't have lost too much from the move except for a bit of presence in the final third but then again, we would have had so much more to gain as a whole and tactically.

Aye - I agree with this. My feeling was that Keegan didn't get much love in the first match. With Auld you get a player who can operate in a similar space, only in the shape of a defined (attacking) midfielder rather than a defined second striker who people don't like very much for various reasons. And you lose nothing in terms of speed and creativity from that switch either.

 

[antohan]

Just check out the European cup final against Inter. Read the write up on Auld at the top of this page if you are intersted to know more about him.

I actually went off and started reading through some of the links you had knocking about and particularly the ones from the Racing games. So many things that sound familiar. I keep saying how bloody hard it was to be dominant in South American football back then, how hard aways were... All the stuff Celtic (and us vs. Estudiantes) complained about was part and parcel, what happened every week and you had to have the character to face and go through in order to be crowned champions.

At least there's some basis for sympathy with our Scottish friends (Uruguayans really love them, even if it isn't precisely reciprocal):

It wasn’t just Celtic who were unimpressed by what had happened. The Uruguayan spectators felt sympathy for Celtic, and as Racing tried to do a lap of honour, they were showered with just about anything the Uruguayan supporters could throw at them. Some of the Racing players ran to the centre of the pitch to obtain some refuge from the anger around the ground against them. Police had to be called in to clear away the Uruguayans who had crowed around the place (including outside the Racing dressing room).

The aftermath
So how did others see it:

In Buenos Aires not surprisingly: “Racing have recovered the glory days of our football!” (La Racon);
In Uruguay: “Racing win the World War” (El Día); “This was no football, it was a disgrace... The match was a farce and a fraud.”

This match should never have happened. It blackened football but more importantly it shattered the hearts of the good genuine fans from Scotland and Ireland who travelled to South America to see another landmark but were rather treated to the disturbing set of violence and mayhem that was South American football.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I would have preferred if MJJ had gone out

With the right reinforcements, I think he would have a phenomenal team in next round.

 

[MJJ]

I would have preferred if MJJ had gone out

With the right reinforcements, I think he would have a phenomenal team in next round.

Pm me the reinforcements you have in mind

Want to see if we are on the same track.

 

[Joga Bonito]

@antohan

I was quite shocked reading through those 3 articles. Recommend others to read through it if they have the time.

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/1967-10-18: Celtic 1-0 Racing Club, Intercontinental Club Cup

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/m/page/1967-11-01: Racing Club 2-1 Celtic, Intercontinental Club Cup

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/m/page/1967-11-04: Racing Club 1-0 Celtic, Intercontinental Club Cup (play-off)

I remember reading through it thinking . Surely couldn't have been that bad.
It was cynical football at its worst.

They tripped, kicked and spat on the Celtic players. When Jimmy Johnston returned to the dressing room at half time his hair was matted with spit from his callous opponents.

Their number 10 was the main man for dishing it out, but as soon as he struck off he would go and his team mates would rush into the fray and cause as much distraction and confusion while he made his getaway. Sly bastards

Ronnie Simpson was knocked out cold, after being struck with a piece of metal so hard it had split his head open right along the top, from the opposition fans just before kick-off. Fallon replaced him.

The Celtic fans clutching their £8 STAND tickets found that their seats had been taken by Argentinians. When they protested some of them were urinated on from the tier above.

Argentinian and Uruguay fans (who had travelled to support Celtic) battled outside the stadium.

I didn't have to hit anybody, just be goalkeeper. But suddenly, Basile really hit the redhead Johnstone with a hell of a foul, one of the most violent I've ever seen. And the referee sent Basile off. I started walking casually out of my goal with my hands behind my back, and made my way slowly towards Johnstone. He was still on the ground when I arrived, so I kicked him as hard as I could for getting my team-mate sent off! - Augustin Cejas

Bertie Auld later recalled “At one stage in the game I was jogging back towards goal after an attacking move when I got a vicious punch on the back of the head. I turned round and one of their players was just 2 feet away from me grinning in my face, no-one had seen it as the ball was at the other end of the field; he was hoping I would hit him back and get caught by the ref. That is what we were up against.

It just showed how great the Lisbon lions were that they were subjected to such a nasty game plan.

Former Celtic director James Farrell believed that Racing's tactics stemmed from a reserve match played 6 days earlier at Celtic park. They admitted after this game that they were amazed at how talented Celtic's youngsters were. They knew that night that there would only be one way for their team to beat Celtic.

This snippet about Auld

In total, six players were sent off - four Celts and two Racing. However, it really ended up being three Celts as Bertie Auld on being red carded refused to leave the pitch and the referee, being as incompetent as he was, allowed him to remain on the pitch.

Great player who was gifted and talented as feck but boy could he stand up for himself and dish it out. Had some temper on him.

A snippet on McNeill. A mark of true class and it was touching to read that. You don't treat people like that after they've been kicking and spitting on you for an entire 90 mins. Made that tough hatchet man cry...

That game was a feckin travesty. The Celtic players got fined and the dirty Argie scumbags got a ridiculous bonus and went unpunished...

The Lisbon lions were really a great team and had some brilliant and rather underappreciated players such as McNeill, Auld, Murdoch, Lennox and Johnstone. One of the best British club sides ever.

Out of curiosity, just how physical and cynical was South American football in that era? I remember watching a documentary on the WC winning Brazil 70 side and they said after the 66 WC, they trained physically to cope with the physical nature of the European sides which they struggled to contend with in the earlier WCs.

Was it just a clichéd narrative in line with the the South American teams being soft aesthetically pleasing sides with the Europeans being the more physical and less 'footballing' sides? Or was cynical and physical football more limited and exclusive in South America and not an accurate description of the entire continent?

 

[Gio]

Always the victims...

 

[Joga Bonito]

Always the victims...

Come on, I know that you don't really take to Celtic but that Intercontinental Club Cup loss was really a travesty and was extremely unfair and undeserved imo.