Bruno is underrated thread

[Hammondo]

Imagine if attacking players around Bruno were prolific.

I will just leave this here:

Top 10 for chances created in 23/24

Player	Club	Chances created (inc. assists)
Kieran Trippier	Newcastle	33
Bruno Fernandes	Man Utd	32
James Maddison	Spurs	31
Dominik Szoboszlai	Liverpool	28
James Ward-Prowse	West Ham	28
Julian Alvarez	Man City	27
Bukayo Saka	Arsenal	27
Mohamed Salah	Liverpool	26
Pedro Neto	Wolves	25
Alfie Doughty	Luton

Top 10 for chances created in 22/23

Player	Team	Chances created
Bruno Fernandes	Man Utd	119
Kieran Trippier	Newcastle	110
Kevin De Bruyne	Man City	98
Pascal Gross	Brighton	80
Martin Odegaard	Arsenal	76
Bukayo Saka	Arsenal	75
James Ward-Prowse	Southampton	74
Michael Olise	Crystal Palace	72
Trent Alexander-Arnold	Liverpool	71
James Maddison	Leicester City	69

How good were the chances though?

 

[Stuu]

Bruno's attacking stats are a load of bs. Anyone who actually watches the games could tell you that. Our players don't get the chances the likes of Chelsea's get each match where they seem to get right through on goal and miss. The last one I remember was Garnacho against West Ham after a mistake by Kudus but it is really quite rare. These "chances" Bruno creates should barely count as such. Not to mention he monopolises almost every set piece (and usually scuffs it into the first man). He's the biggest stat padder there is from his international goal record against tiny nations to penalties at United.

 

[justsomebloke]

How good were the chances though?

What a pointless objection - unless you have some good reason why they'd be less good than those of the other players on that list?

 

[Hammondo]

What a pointless objection - unless you have some good reason why they'd be less good than those of the other players on that list?

Just pointing out how worthless that stat it without a lot of context.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just pointing out how worthless that stat it without a lot of context.

The context is the other players on the list. All of whom are being judged by the same criteria.

 

[Red the Bear]

How good were the chances though?

How is tripper that high? He's been dogshite this season.

 

[Hammondo]

The context is the other players on the list. All of whom are being judged by the same criteria.

Yea it's a poor criteria to judge on, and that's not the context of a statistic btw.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yea it's a poor criteria to judge on, and that's not the context of a statistic btw.

Of course it’s the context. The statistic only makes sense when compared to his peers. In isolation, the number of chances created is meaningless.

 

[AlexUTD]

How good were the chances though?

You expect me to analyze 1 1/2 season worth of games to answer you or is this a rhetorical question?

 

[Hammondo]

You expect me to analyze 1 1/2 season worth of games to answer you or is this a rhetorical question?

Rhetorical.

 

[Hammondo]

Of course it’s the context. The statistic only makes sense when compared to his peers. In isolation, the number of chances created is meaningless.

Of course it’s the context. The statistic only makes sense when compared to his peers. In isolation, the number of chances created is meaningless.

That's not what context means.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's not what context means.

Yes it is. That is absolutely what it means (in this context!)

 

[Jeppers7]

Just pointing out how worthless that stat it without a lot of context.

It’s totally worthless. Bruno got 6 key passes against Bournemouth. A game where we didn’t create anything and lost 3-0.

 

[Hammondo]

Yes it is. That is absolutely what it means (in this context!)

It is not. Check a dictionary.

 

[Hammondo]

It’s totally worthless. Bruno got 6 key passes against Bournemouth. A game where we didn’t create anything and lost 3-0.

Exactly.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It is not. Check a dictionary.

Yes it is. You’re wrong. Sorry.

 

[Hammondo]

Yes it is. You’re wrong. Sorry.

It is not, nothing about putting it into a list of the same statistic puts it into a term for it to be understood. The fact you cannot answer the question "how good were the chances" proves it's not understood.

I'm not interested in this childish argument because you cannot be bothered to read a dictionary.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

How good were the chances though?

I'd prefer instead of someone could fit those stats into some kind of context within the overall volume and efficiency with which each player creates. Per 90 doesn't really do it either

 

[eire-red]

Bruno situation kind of reminds me of Coutuinho for Liverpool. Nobody can argue that Coutinho was brilliant for Liverpool, but they sold him for huge money and because a more complete team without him.

The main issue I have with Bruno is his inability to consistently influence big games for us, and that's what sets the likes of KDB apart from him.

If he's going to continue to be the mainstay and captain of this team, he needs to step up in bigger games and we need to find a way to dominate the midfield with him in the 10, because we're too open at the moment with the current make-up.

 

[Giggsy13]

Bruno situation kind of reminds me of Coutuinho for Liverpool. Nobody can argue that Coutinho was brilliant for Liverpool, but they sold him for huge money and because a more complete team without him.

The main issue I have with Bruno is his inability to consistently influence big games for us, and that's what sets the likes of KDB apart from him.

If he's going to continue to be the mainstay and captain of this team, he needs to step up in bigger games and we need to find a way to dominate the midfield with him in the 10, because we're too open at the moment with the current make-up.

Compare the players KDB plays with in contrast to our squad of bottlers. Bruno is a mainstay in this squad and by far our most influential and creative player. This wouldn’t even be a conservation if we had attackers who could actually score. Bruno gets absolutely no appreciation.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It is not, nothing about putting it into a list of the same statistic puts it into a term for it to be understood. The fact you cannot answer the question "how good were the chances" proves it's not understood.

I'm not interested in this childish argument because you cannot be bothered to read a dictionary.

I don’t need to read a dictionary to know that the most important context of a stat about how many chances a player creates is how many chances other players create in the same league. There is no better way to put that stat in context. Well done for being even more pedantic than me though. That’s quite an achievement.

 

[RikRuud]

A big problem he has in this team is that he gets too involved with what is happening behind him. If we can get some cohesive partnerships in midfield behind him it will free him up to return to what he was doing in his first couple of seasons.

 

[Cassidy]

Okay, if by "keeping the ball under pressure" you do not mean "press resistant", what do you mean? Also, what has dribbling got to do with "keeping the ball and waiting for the opening"? As far as I know, dribbling is moving past a defender with the ball?

If you do not know what keeping the ball and waiting for an opening has to do with dribbling for a no 10 then no point continuing the conversation.

 

[justsomebloke]

How is tripper that high? He's been dogshite this season.

By not being dogshite this season.

 

[justsomebloke]

If you do not know what keeping the ball and waiting for an opening has to do with dribbling for a no 10 then no point continuing the conversation.

No, really. Do explain. The first question as well please.

 

[justsomebloke]

It is not, nothing about putting it into a list of the same statistic puts it into a term for it to be understood. The fact you cannot answer the question "how good were the chances" proves it's not understood.

I'm not interested in this childish argument because you cannot be bothered to read a dictionary.

This is an astoundingly stupid line of reasoning.

 

[justsomebloke]

It’s totally worthless. Bruno got 6 key passes against Bournemouth. A game where we didn’t create anything and lost 3-0.

The definition of a key pass is a pass that leads directly to a shot. Very simple.

 

[Cassidy]

No, really. Do explain. The first question as well please.

Dribbling allows you to keep the ball longer e.g beating the opposition player instead of making the pass, in order to allow play to develop further and for better-passing options to open.

Press resistance and keeping the ball under pressure may amount to the same thing, either way, Bruno isn't particularly good at it/either. I tend to use the term press resistance when talking about players involved in the build-up phase of possession in the defensive third and midfield, but not as much in the final third. This is where Bruno inability to keep the ball under pressure hinders him the most, which means he tends to make rushed passes or attempts to execute more difficult passes when closed down.

It is true players who do not dribble all that well excel in these positions, but these players were usually physically capable of holding off defenders and adept at keeping their body between defender and ball. Ball manipulation and dribbling ability coupled with physical strength and body positioning are combined by the top players in those positions. This in my opinion is his biggest weakness as a player and the reason why when we play top opposition and he gets marked / double marked he isn't very effective.

 

[Jeppers7]

The definition of a key pass is a pass that leads directly to a shot. Very simple.

Ah ok…Brian McClair to David Beckham type stuff. Got you.

 

[Hammondo]

I don’t need to read a dictionary to know that the most important context of a stat about how many chances a player creates is how many chances other players create in the same league. There is no better way to put that stat in context. Well done for being even more pedantic than me though. That’s quite an achievement.

But it's not though. If player A creates 10 crap chances and player B creates 8 amazing chances, what's the importance of just saying how many chances either made? It adds very little.

 

[doughole]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Bruno is creative buck so often lacks the final ball. With better coaching and a successful partnership up front he could be gold.

 

[NotChatGPT]

I said him losing the ball relatively infrequently is the opposite to what you think from the criticism on here, which consistently focuses on losing possession. I didn’t say it was the only thing he gets criticised for. In fact there are very few things he doesn’t get criticised for.

What you said was

Interesting to hear he’s losing the ball less than most by being tackled or miscontrols. That’s the exact opposite of what you’d infer from his critics on here

Considering the entire debate is more or less about his passing, it seems to be a bit of a straw mans argument from your side. Little more than a cheap attempt at making it out as if his critics are making things up. Which is fair enough, it's what most people do on forums.

You mentioned two players that play the same position/role as Bruno and two that don't. It was your decision to include two that don't which I find strange.

Is that ratio question rhetorical? Are you trying to argue that Ward Prowse's dead ball excellence isn't the main reason he makes that top 10?

In terms of Ward Prowse, i'm asking about his stats as i don't have the answer. You've made the assumption it's all about dead ball excellence, maybe it is.

Pascal Groß can play in several positions, he can play in a more traditional centre midfield role and he can play higher up the pitch, as such he has to adjust his passing range. Which is what i think the vast majority of Brunos critics generally want from Bruno, to understand when the team needs him to be conservative with his passing.

For instance: Pascal's passing % range from 77 and upwards, only 1 match below 84%.
Ødegaards: 67,9 and upwards, two matches below 80
Maddison: 80 and above
Ward Prowse: 78,6 and upwards, only one below 80

Bruno: from 54,8 and upwards, half his matches are in the low 70's.

I just find it a bit weird.

I can't be bothered to see if there actually exists any stats that take into account the situations, to see if there's any interesting correlation, also if there's any stats that look into the following consequence, like being countered against.

Bruno is usually in the top 5 when it comes to passes in our team. My immediate impression is that he's being overly aggressive when it comes to creative passes, and that overall as a team we'll be better off if it's more finely tuned between risk reward, often it's better to hold on to the ball for longer periods.. Especially when we don't have a functioning midfield. .

But i could easily be wrong.

 

[Cutch]

How is tripper that high? He's been dogshite this season.

He's been making errors leading to goals in recent weeks but he's still been very creative at the other end

 

[Jeppers7]

What you said was

Considering the entire debate is more or less about his passing, it seems to be a bit of a straw mans argument from your side. Little more than a cheap attempt at making it out as if his critics are making things up. Which is fair enough, it's what most people do on forums.



In terms of Ward Prowse, i'm asking about his stats as i don't have the answer. You've made the assumption it's all about dead ball excellence, maybe it is.

Pascal Groß can play in several positions, he can play in a more traditional centre midfield role and he can play higher up the pitch, as such he has to adjust his passing range. Which is what i think the vast majority of Brunos critics generally want from Bruno, to understand when the team needs him to be conservative with his passing.

For instance: Pascal's passing % range from 77 and upwards, only 1 match below 84%.
Ødegaards: 67,9 and upwards, two matches below 80
Maddison: 80 and above
Ward Prowse: 78,6 and upwards, only one below 80

Bruno: from 54,8 and upwards, half his matches are in the low 70's.

I just find it a bit weird.

I can't be bothered to see if there actually exists any stats that take into account the situations, to see if there's any interesting correlation, also if there's any stats that look into the following consequence, like being countered against.

Bruno is usually in the top 5 when it comes to passes in our team. My immediate impression is that he's being overly aggressive when it comes to creative passes, and that overall as a team we'll be better off if it's more finely tuned between risk reward, often it's better to hold on to the ball for longer periods.. Especially when we don't have a functioning midfield. .

But i could easily be wrong.

Good post. Well done for putting in the work here.

 

[Martial]

He is underrated for sure.

The strikers he has played with in his time here are a crocked Martial, over-the-hill Ronaldo, Weghorst, and now Hoijlund.

Incredible how well he has done for us.

 

[Jeppers7]

He is underrated for sure.

The strikers he has played with in his time here are a crocked Martial, over-the-hill Ronaldo, Weghorst, and now Hoijlund.

Incredible how well he has done for us.

His first year Rashford, Martial, Greenwood were fantastic as a front three. Ronaldo was superb in a season where Bruno was genuinely abysmal, scoring 24 goals and many match winners. This season Bruno has been abysmal….yet again that’s everybody else’s fault.

 

[mintyred]

I think he's correctly rated, and I think people are getting confused between his actual ability and how well he implements it in a game.

I'd say Neymar is more talented than Ronaldo, but Ronaldo is a much better player.

 

[#07]

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Despicable really. The way they exaggerated his features and depict him with devious, beady eyes. Some serious undertones...

There are players up and down the league who scream and cry at referees. Liverpool do it every week. Their manager spends half the time showering the fourth official with saliva screams. Yet somehow its always Bruno the media goes after.

 

[mintyred]

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Despicable really. The way they exaggerated his features and depict him with devious, beady eyes. Some serious undertones...

There are players up and down the league who scream and cry at referees. Liverpool do it every week. Their manager spends half the time showering the fourth official with saliva screams. Yet somehow its always Bruno the media goes after.

The way you look massively affects how you're treated by the media in football. Not sure if it's in every country but it's definitely the case in the UK. They use stereotypes against you.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

His first year Rashford, Martial, Greenwood were fantastic as a front three. Ronaldo was superb in a season where Bruno was genuinely abysmal, scoring 24 goals and many match winners. This season Bruno has been abysmal….yet again that’s everybody else’s fault.

Abysmal, really? Been one of United's better players.