Bastard.
Bundesliga 13/14
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
Yeah makes sense. I thought it was more to integrate Götze again because he is probably at his best when playing behind the striker but your explanation is most likely the main reason.
I don't think it makes a big difference for Götze. I actually think he looked better next to Thiago with Lahm as the lone pivot than as the lone AM ahead of a double pivot.
Guardiola always wears the same red sweater underneath a jacket.
Looks like a clear 4-2-3-1 as well, Kroos-Piggy base. That never looked anything special under Heynckes IMO, I wonder how it will be now.
Looks like a clear 4-2-3-1 as well, Kroos-Piggy base. That never looked anything special under Heynckes IMO, I wonder how it will be now.
Our line-up:
Neuer - Contento, van Buyten, Boateng, Rafinha - Kroos, Schweinsteiger - Müller, Götze, Robben - Mandzukic
Somehow I'm not really confident about our defense in this game. Well, need to score at least 3 goals to stay on track for 102 goals anyway, so it should be an entertaining game.
You'll get that no problem, it's looking as devastating as Guardiola's first season at Barça... teams are still too naive facing them, on top of that there's the BuLi's ridiculous openness anyway.
Replacement for Lampard in the squad I think. Give Oscar some competition, or if they're chasing a game play something like this (they used this formation against Spurs).
----------Matic----------
-----Oscar---Firmino-----
-Willian-----------Hazard-
-----------CF-----------
Son
What a miss!
What a miss!
Oh my god Son.
Well done from Neuer though he left him practically no space to take a clean shot.
Well done from Neuer though he left him practically no space to take a clean shot.
feck sakes. Apart from Starke, each of them would start in our XI right now.
87% Possession for Munich in the opening 15mins.
Yeah, but none of our back four on the pitch would, that's why Leverkusen already had quite a few chances
.This is van Gaal all over again. Boring possession football in a 442/424 without fluidity in attack, Müller as the 2nd striker and no one to connect the central midfield with the 4 attackers and a huge hole where the AM should be. Replace Götze with Ribery and we're back in 2011 .
.Schweinsteiger
2-0
2-0
Great free kick. Looked like it was floating in.
Nice free kick from Schweinsteiger.
Even on a bad day Bayern has little trouble beating one of the top teams in the league. A bit depressing tbh.
Even on a bad day Bayern has little trouble beating one of the top teams in the league. A bit depressing tbh.
What a goal. What's the goalkeeper doing though
Just read that bayern can secure the title next week if Dortmund fail to win... With 2 months left in the season, incredible.
weidenfeller is a good shot stopper and keeper but at times he makes some very bizarre decisions.
What a goal. What's the goalkeeper doing though
Finally someone who shares my opinion of him. He has good reflexes, but not so much that it would stand out, and in other terms is the opposite of a modern goalie. Why such am a man of the past was called up to the Nationalmannschaft remains a mystery.
lol what's the general opinion of him? one of top keepers in germany?
Yeah, but only because half the country hates Neuer while the other half doesn't watch Bundesliga regularly and has only seen ter Stegen making errors at the NT. So Weidenfeller obviously has to be a world-class keeper since it's currently 'in' to cheer for BVB.
Weidenfeller is a very solid keeper and capable of producion amazing performances (usually against Bayern...), but really the only reason everybody's been clamoring about him playing for the national side is that his team won 2 championships. Doesn't make him a great keeper, but he can't be called bad by any standard.Yeah, but only because half the country hates Neuer while the other half doesn't watch Bundesliga regularly and has only seen ter Stegen making errors at the NT. So Weidenfeller obviously has to be a world-class keeper since it's currently 'in' to cheer for BVB.
I didn't claim he was a bad goalkeeper. For me he's on the same level as René Adler or Diego Belagio. All three are very good goalkeepers with weaknesses in certain areas of their game.
The gap to Manuel Neuer who is the only mature world-class goalkeeper is quite huge whereas Marc-André ter Stegen is the only other goalkeeper with world-class potential. Too bad for BMG and the Bundesliga but he's off to Barcelona.
Weidenfellers most important function was being one of the few grown-ups in Dortmunds bratpack in 2010, something the Nationalmannschaft is hardly in demand for. I'd take Adler or Kraft over him any day.
Should he even go to Brazil? Neuer, ter Stegen and Adler? I haven't seen much of Adler but he's more highly rated than Weidenfeller according to what I've read.
Kraft? You must be joking. Weidenfeller has been nothing short of sensational for around two years now.
If Adler goes to Brazil after the shocking 18 months he had, I start crying. He had games in which he made more mistakes than Weidenfeller or Neuer all season. And Kraft , really?
Weidenfeller is a great shot stopper, whose overall game has significantly improved since Klopp took over at Dortmund. He's not worldclass and he isn't as consistent in the last 12-15 months as he was the 2-3 years before that, but he's still comfortably the 2nd best German goalkeeper at the moment. My biggest worry is the switch from an outstanding sweeper keeper to a shotstopper who makes questionable decisions when leaving his zone, if Neuer can't play for whatever reason. A less stubborn manager in charge of the nationalteam could adjust the defense to help him fit in, not sure if that's going to happen. Löw never did it when Wiese or Adler played and they are even more clear shotstopper keepers than Weidenfeller.
In theory, ter Stegen would be the perfect back-up choice, but he didn't look comfortable for Germany at all, has basically no European experience on club level and is still incredibly young. There are more doubts about him bringing his best form into a worldcup knockout game in Brazil than about Weidenfeller, imo.
The truth is, the gap between Neuer and the rest is huge and with the lack of stability in defense for years now, we should pray that Neuer isn't injured and won't be suspended for a game. He's irreplacable at the moment.
, really?Weidenfeller is a great shot stopper, whose overall game has significantly improved since Klopp took over at Dortmund. He's not worldclass and he isn't as consistent in the last 12-15 months as he was the 2-3 years before that, but he's still comfortably the 2nd best German goalkeeper at the moment. My biggest worry is the switch from an outstanding sweeper keeper to a shotstopper who makes questionable decisions when leaving his zone, if Neuer can't play for whatever reason. A less stubborn manager in charge of the nationalteam could adjust the defense to help him fit in, not sure if that's going to happen. Löw never did it when Wiese or Adler played and they are even more clear shotstopper keepers than Weidenfeller.
In theory, ter Stegen would be the perfect back-up choice, but he didn't look comfortable for Germany at all, has basically no European experience on club level and is still incredibly young. There are more doubts about him bringing his best form into a worldcup knockout game in Brazil than about Weidenfeller, imo.
The truth is, the gap between Neuer and the rest is huge and with the lack of stability in defense for years now, we should pray that Neuer isn't injured and won't be suspended for a game. He's irreplacable at the moment.
Kraft played more than solid 2 seasons for Hertha now. He is completely ignored by everyone since his Bayern disaster, but imo he's been better and more consistent than the likes of Baumann, Zieler or Trapp, all of which have been hailed as the next big thing.
Weidenfeller, for me, is a typical example of a keeper who shines by (sometimes) saving stuff in a spectacular way that wouldn't have happened in the first place if he hadn't made a positional or other mistake before that. Showflieger. But i may be biased.
I agree with Balu. The style a goalkeeper has influences the tactics for the defense a great deal - also was the main reason for Klinsmann to drop Kahn in favour of Lehmann in '2006. Bringing in a keeper who is glued to the box and uncomfortable when being passed to for a keeper who does the exact opposite is a liability for the team. The days of the shot stoppers are over.
Weidenfeller has certainly not been sensational this season. I don't watch BVB's games very often but I noticed several mistakes in the CL as well as the very few BuLi games I witnessed. He certainly suffered a considerable drop of form since his stellar 2012/13 season.
My goalkeeper line-up for the World Cup would be Neuer as the clear #1 whereas ter Stegen as the world-class talent and Adler as an experienced quality alternative fight for position behind him. There is no need to add Weidenfeller to the mix who has a history of stirring up controversy when it comes to the National Team, why bother if there's no need for him?
My goalkeeper line-up for the World Cup would be Neuer as the clear #1 whereas ter Stegen as the world-class talent and Adler as an experienced quality alternative fight for position behind him. There is no need to add Weidenfeller to the mix who has a history of stirring up controversy when it comes to the National Team, why bother if there's no need for him?
More consistent yes, better? Not sure. Baumann is struggling this season. Zieler had a bad season after his first cap for Germany, but since then he's consistently good, nothing special, but a level above Kraft, imo. Trapp was exceptional for Frankfurt until his stupid injury. He's been significantly better than Kraft ever was, imo. Kraft's been decent for a midtable team this season and was okay for a team walking the 2. Bundesliga last season. Can't remember a single exceptional performance of him though, he's not worth discussing him for the nationalteam. None of those you mentioned are, which makes the suggestion that Kraft is better than Weidenfeller so strange.
Seriously, Adler? That guy was injured for years, came back with a few brilliant performances over the first 3-4 months at Hamburg and has been outright shit since. He obviously struggles with the pressure, struggles with injuries again this season like he did all his career and has a way worse overall skillset than Weidenfeller.
I also think it's ridiculous to use a few stupid comments from a few years back as a reason. Weidenfeller so obviously has matured as a person. He probably can't stop grinning since he got his first cap for Germany and there's nothing, absolutely nothing that suggests he would be a negative influence in the dressing room or stir shit up.
If the three goalkeepers are Neuer + 1 talent + 1 experienced goalkeeper, it has to be ter Stegen and Weidenfeller. Adler is neither a good fit to the playing style, nor experienced enough on international level and his performances in the last 2 years are definitely worse than Weidenfellers, it's not even close.
I expect Weidenfeller would struggle as well at a club in turmoil like HSV. It's not like he isn't making any mistakes, we know he does and he confirmed it just this past weekend. At BVB he simply receives less ridicule than Adler at HSV. Those are the normal mechanisms when you're the goalkeeper of a team facing relegation. Fact is, Adler had a very strong 2012/13 season and has always done very well when wearing the jersey of the German National Team, even in the big games. His injuries played a huge part to his spell of bad games but I don't see a problem with a healthy and fit René Adler in goal. This Adler is convincing.
I'm also unaware how Weidenfeller is supposed to be better suited to the playing stile of the German NT. Adler is the vastly superior player outside his own box. Just yesterday against Nürnberg he intercepted an incredibly dangerous counter-attack 35m away from his goal. Weidenfeller is a goalkeeper of traditional playing stile, he's strong in 1on1's as long as they're close to goal, the further away the worse it gets. Worst case he looks just lost like against BMG. Both are prone to an occasional mistake in aerial duels and aside from that they are pretty much on par.
Considering Adler's superior knowledge of the NT's playing stile, his superior play outside the box, his history of very good performances in the German NT and his spotless record as a member of the team he'd definitely be my pick. Especially as a team player who will most likely not receive much playing time it is the choice between two goalkeepers on a similar level of which one is known as a total team player whereas the other has a loud mouth and said history of stirring up controversy. Why should Löw take any chances?
That being said I could also live with Weidenfeller, I would simply prefer Adler for the above mentioned reasons.
He has 12 caps, his last competitive game for Germany was in 2009 and his only stand-out performance was back then away at Russia in a worldcup qualifier. He never played a single CL game or a game at an international tournament. Since then he played two meaningless friendlies and so much has changed, that I don't see his performances almost 5 years ago as relevant.
I also disagree about Adler being superior outside his own box. He's way too cautious, his reading of the game is often bad and the worst thing about him, he's not consequent in his decisions. You often see him moving outside, then going back again because he doesn't trust his own decisions, which leads to him being in a position where he can do feck all to prevent goals. One clearance outside of the box doesn't change those patterns. I don't really care if he's struggling because his club is playing shit. It's obvious that he lacks confidence and consistency. If he started the 12/13 season with his performances in the second half, no one would even think about him. It's the usual the first impression was great, so we just ignore that he's been shit ever since thing. He came back with a bang and since then all you hear about him are excuses.
/edit:
I also feel a bit sick now, for defending Weidenfeller, I really dislike him
. But the thought of Adler starting a worldcup game for Germany after his performances in the last 18 months is a nightmare.
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Do not underestimate that point. Living together 6 weeks in a competition can really stir trouble. Weidenfeller is not a type like Butt who in that situation will really help the team.
Borussia Dortmund seem to have found a replacement for Lewandowski. "sueddeutsche" reports the deal with Herthas Adrian Ramos is as good as settled. Ramos, who should be starting for Colombia in the upcoming WC, has scored 15 goals in 25 league games this year. The fee for the 28 year old striker is said to be around 8Mio €. As current second striker Schieber failed to impress, Dortmund may still be in the market for a second striker. Rumours circled around a possible BVB interest in Lukaku (Everton, Benteke (Aston Villa) or Batshuayi (Standard Lüttich) for a while now, also the luxury option of hiring Edin Dzeko is still there, but highly unlikely, as the bosnians salary demands may be way above what BVB is willing to pay.
Also, the DFB court let BVB coach Klopp off with a slap on the wrist after getting set to the stands by Ref Aytekin in injury time at the game against Gladbach, and only fined him for 10 grand instead of banning him. It was Klopps 6th sending off, 4 in league games, 1 in the cup and once in the CL. The coach refused to apologize and was covered by his club boss. "He does nothing the other 17 coaches don't do as well", Watzke boldly stated.
Also, the DFB court let BVB coach Klopp off with a slap on the wrist after getting set to the stands by Ref Aytekin in injury time at the game against Gladbach, and only fined him for 10 grand instead of banning him. It was Klopps 6th sending off, 4 in league games, 1 in the cup and once in the CL. The coach refused to apologize and was covered by his club boss. "He does nothing the other 17 coaches don't do as well", Watzke boldly stated.
Ramos is very good value for money but it will be a significant drop in quality if that's all BVB can afford. At the moment BVB is already on € 15m net investments for the summer (Ramos + Sahin) and they still need a new central defensive midfielder or they face the danger of entering yet another season with two injury prone players like Kehl and Bender alongside Sahin. The ideal scenario would be a healthy Gündogan extending his contract or being sold for considerable money, but that's not going to happen. BVB can't afford to give a potential invalid a long-term contract at € 4-5m while no other club will spend big on him. In the meantime they also want to avoid losing him on a free in 2015, worst case scenario they are giving him a lot of playing time in 14/15 out of pure necessity and he leaves as a free-agent.
This is really a tough situation for their management. I couldn't say what to do with Gündogan's prognosis being as unclear as it is.
By the way, I read BVB paid € 52m on wages during the first half of 2013/14 season which is a considerable increase of €7.8m compared to last season. Including bonuses for advancing in the CL and DFB cup their personnel expenses might very well amount to € 110-120m. So much for the myth that BVB players earn apples and oranges over there and only care about 'true love'.
This is really a tough situation for their management. I couldn't say what to do with Gündogan's prognosis being as unclear as it is.
By the way, I read BVB paid € 52m on wages during the first half of 2013/14 season which is a considerable increase of €7.8m compared to last season. Including bonuses for advancing in the CL and DFB cup their personnel expenses might very well amount to € 110-120m. So much for the myth that BVB players earn apples and oranges over there and only care about 'true love'.
Why would this be a problem when they received a windfall from last year's Champions League run and the 39 million euros from the sale of Goetze?Ramos is very good value for money but it will be a significant drop in quality if that's all BVB can afford. At the moment BVB is already on € 15m net investments for the summer (Ramos + Sahin) and they still need a new central defensive midfielder or they face the danger of entering yet another season with two injury prone players like Kehl and Bender alongside Sahin. The ideal scenario would be a healthy Gündogan extending his contract or being sold for considerable money, but that's not going to happen. BVB can't afford to give a potential invalid a long-term contract at € 4-5m while no other club will spend big on him. In the meantime they also want to avoid losing him on a free in 2015, worst case scenario they are giving him a lot of playing time in 14/15 out of pure necessity and he leaves as a free-agent.
This is really a tough situation for their management. I couldn't say what to do with Gündogan's prognosis being as unclear as it is.
By the way, I read BVB paid € 52m on wages during the first half of 2013/14 season which is a considerable increase of €7.8m compared to last season. Including bonuses for advancing in the CL and DFB cup their personnel expenses might very well amount to € 110-120m. So much for the myth that BVB players earn apples and oranges over there and only care about 'true love'.
In addition, they are likely to get substantial revenue money from this year's CL run, even if they get knocked-out in quarter-finals. They should have some relative financial muscle going into the summer, both in transfers and wages. They will also be offloading Lewandowski's 80 grand a week salary, giving them enough flexibility regarding wages.
I'm not a financial expert but I read the key figures of their last business reports and found some numbers which lead me to believe Dortmund's net investment won't surpass € 30-35m this summer. This is also the amount many Dortmund fans expect.
Regarding Götze and their earnings last season, they indeed received € 37m for him initially minus 10% to the player due to a contractual clause decreasing the amount to € 33.7m. They also had to pay profit tax on their financial result, having a lot more earnings than expenses makes you good friends with the tax authorities. You also need to be aware that Watzke timed his transfer activities very well, their financial year ended in June 2013 which means it included the Götze fee but excluded the expenses of € 50m for Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang and Sokratis. BVB's very own financial report released on February 28th 2014 seems to prove me right: 'cash and cash equivalents: € 6.8m' (can be found here http://aktie.bvb.de/eng/Publication...eports/Semi-Annual-Financial-Report-2013-2014). Their balance sheet is very healthy but there are no huge cash reserves to be found.
Their CEO Watzke on the other hand announced a major offensive on the transfer market next summer, the same procedure as last year. In the end they didn't spend a lot more money than they earned which makes me hesitant to believe him. I expect most of what they are going to spend next summer needs to be earned this season. So while there is still room for investments, the decreasing profits of the first half of the season (50% drop compared to last year) in my mind clearly indicate that all the contract extensions of players like Piszczek, Weidenfeller, Hummels, Subotic and Kuba leave BVB with less possibilities on their wage bill than some people think. Still, BVB is growing and they have room to invest, just not as much as we'd like.
I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though. The Bundesliga needs a strong Borussia Dortmund.
Last year, Dortmund reported a win of 50+ mio €. This year, they will cash in again, also on CL revenue. The CL starting place for next season is pretty likely.
Given their history, it is possibly a wise move to not blow it all on a few players for trasfer fees/salaries, but they aren't exactly the poor house of europe, as their self-marketing likes to imply. Last summer break, Dortmund invested just 10Mio less than Bayern, who paid 62Mio for Götze and Thiago. Both together spent more money than the rest of the league combined.
It could be said that last years success on the pitch wasn't really the proof that you can win the BuLi and go to the CL on a budget. It was a one-time thing as many players were still on contracts below their market value. In some sense, they are closing the gap to reality (i.e. wanna play with the big boys, spend like the big boys) and they are paying the price for it now.
Given their history, it is possibly a wise move to not blow it all on a few players for trasfer fees/salaries, but they aren't exactly the poor house of europe, as their self-marketing likes to imply. Last summer break, Dortmund invested just 10Mio less than Bayern, who paid 62Mio for Götze and Thiago. Both together spent more money than the rest of the league combined.
It could be said that last years success on the pitch wasn't really the proof that you can win the BuLi and go to the CL on a budget. It was a one-time thing as many players were still on contracts below their market value. In some sense, they are closing the gap to reality (i.e. wanna play with the big boys, spend like the big boys) and they are paying the price for it now.
You raise some good points. Thanks for clarifying.
What is the profit tax in Germany? If Dortmund reported a profit of €50m in 2013, there is a good chance that at least half of it remains in the club accounts after tax and dividents to the shareholders. Your rationale regarding the 50% drop in profits compared to the first half of last year makes sense. Lewandowski alone had a salary increase of 400%, going from 20000 a week to 80000 a week.
However, even with the purchases of Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang and Sokratis, they should be on the black come the end of season. Their TV money from the Champions League will be distributed after the CL finals, and they will likely get at least a minimum of some 20 million Euros (depending on how deep they go into the competition). Add to that the matchday revenue for CL games, and winning prizes (which will probably be offset by financial rewards stipulated in player contracts).
If Dortmund is to compete with the big clubs, they need to increase their ticket prices and attract bigger sponsors. There is no guarantee they will make it past the CL groups each year, meaning their financial books will suffer significantly as a result - although as long as they make it into the Champions League, they should be fine.
I'm not 100% sure but profit- as well as solidarity tax should amount to something around 30% of a company's profit. If you add the dividend to the shareholders more or less € 30m of BVB's € 50m profit should have remained with the club. There are certain measures to decrease the profit tax like loss carryforwards but afaik BVB had few of those left as they decreased their debt considerably over the last decade.
Regarding their wage bill I believe you overestimate the influence of Lewandowski's increased salary on BVB's future personnel expenses. His replacement Adrian Ramos is supposed to earn € 2.8m according to BILD which is not a lot less than Lewy's € 4.5m. The remaining € 1.7m will be redistributed to Dong-Won Ji who arrives as a free-agent.
I agree with your assessment that the funds from the Uefa Champions League will give Borussia Dortmund room for proper net investments which is why € 30m seems like a realistic figure. That doesn't mean they have the money to sign players like Edin Dzeko though. His wage demands are still too high.
One thing is clear, BVB will not be able to compete with the Oligarch / Sheikh sponsored clubs abroad or the traditional giants like Real, United, Barca or Bayern when it comes to transfer fees and salaries. At least not in the next 10 years but they nevertheless grow as a business, they have to pursue their own road. The above linked report shows a record turnover of € 137m during the first half of the season due to new sponsorship deals (Turkish Airlines) and record-breaking merchandising sales. The more BVB can establish themselves in the elimination rounds of the UCL the more sponsors will be willing to invest into partnerships leading to further growth.
A stabilized turnover of € 300m would be a huge success for BVB and it's within their reach, even without increased ticket prices which could lead to disturbances within the club.
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