Can a Sir Alex Ferguson apprentice ever become an elite coach/manager?

[Rozay]

Sir Alex has of course been the most successful PL manager, and he has had teams with real characters and leaders. Yet while a number of them have gone on to enjoy careers of varying levels of success in management, the likes of Robson, Strachan, Ince, Keane, Neville, Bruce and co have not become elite managers, despite most of them having been Sir Alex’s captains as players. Now we have another apprentice in Ole, who still refers to Fergie as the boss and makes constant references to the example that he had as a player working with ‘the best’.

My question is, is the education received under Sir Alex a gift and a curse for these managers? All of these men enjoyed the most successful spells of their playing careers under Sir Alex, and their concept on what it takes to win will undoubtedly be largely formed by the environment in which they won so much. The impression I get is that they are totally convinced that what brought them success as players will do so as managers because, well why wouldn’t they? They were literally there and have tangible evidence of how battles were won.

I think Ole has come in and done a fantastic job at 80-90% of the spec. He’s perhaps come the closest to recreating the principles of Sir Alex in terms of the spirit in the dressing room, never giving in, trying to attack from the first to the last and showing courage and character. My issue is, in today’s game, there is a crucial ingredient that he could not possibly have gotten from Fergie. And I think this may be what holds him back from the elite. I do worry that all ex-Fergie players simply try to recreate the 90s almost. And it will be their downfall. But it’s what they know, it’s all they have experienced of success at an elite level.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

There is only one SAF. This pipe dream that there can be another is whats killing us. We need to be ruthless if we want to win stuff. If another SAF comes along, great. But lets stop trying to force it.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

What like Gary Neville and Roy Keane? Having been a player for Sir Alex has nothing to do with becoming a great manager.

 

[Cloud7]

No. A lot of what made Sir Alex great was unique to him. His spirit. The way he knew how to get into the mind of every player and make them perform. Those are things you can’t teach. He was special, and there won’t be another like him. The fact that none of his acolytes have ever become anything more than mediocre managers is testament to that.

 

[Dominos]

I thought we moved past trying to recreate Ferguson's reign years ago?

We had "we need a British manager, it's United tradition" which resulted in David Moyes.
We had "we need a manager who will be here for 20 year like Ferguson" which resulted in David Moyes.

Then we had the debacle where people thought Ryan Giggs should get the job full time after Van Gaal was sacked because he "knew the club".

Just hire the best managers available until one of them brings you success. Liverpool, City and Chelsea know the score.

 

[acolyte]

I will say that one of Sir Alex's main skills that Ole seems to have picked up but none of SAF's other protégés have demonstrated is top notch man management, in particular of highly accomplished and highly paid players. Players seem to like playing for him, the atmosphere around the club is good, and they're motivated.

 

[tenpoless]

Sir Alex has of course been the most successful PL manager, and he has had teams with real characters and leaders. Yet while a number of them have gone on to enjoy careers of varying levels of success in management, the likes of Robson, Strachan, Ince, Keane, Neville, Bruce and co have not become elite managers, despite most of them having been Sir Alex’s captains as players. Now we have another apprentice in Ole, who still refers to Fergie as the boss and makes constant references to the example that he had as a player working with ‘the best’.

My question is, is the education received under Sir Alex a gift and a curse for these managers? All of these men enjoyed the most successful spells of their playing careers under Sir Alex, and their concept on what it takes to win will undoubtedly be largely formed by the environment in which they won so much. The impression I get is that they are totally convinced that what brought them success as players will do so as managers because, well why wouldn’t they? They were literally there and have tangible evidence of how battles were won.

I think Ole has come in and done a fantastic job at 80-90% of the spec. He’s perhaps come the closest to recreating the principles of Sir Alex in terms of the spirit in the dressing room, never giving in, trying to attack from the first to the last and showing courage and character. My issue is, in today’s game, there is a crucial ingredient that he could not possibly have gotten from Fergie. And I think this may be what holds him back from the elite. I do worry that all ex-Fergie players simply try to recreate the 90s almost. And it will be their downfall. But it’s what they know, it’s all they have experienced of success at an elite level.

I'm sorry Ole certainly doesnt have 80-90% of these things compared to what Sir Alex had. Some of his footballs were reminiscent of Jose's than Sir Alex. Playing as an underdog against smaller teams.

But yeah youre right, it's almost as if every ex United players still think football like the old days where devotion and United way (the proper way) will lead you somewhere. It is also represented by the fans that think sacking manager too early is wrong and United way is the best way (giving managers a long time - sometimes too long, being afraid of confronting co 92 and club legends thus following and agreeing whatever they said because again, its the 'proper' way).

There is a problem with this thinking however because PL and the footballing world in general have more filthy rich clubs than in 90's and they could snatch our targets easily if we keep failing thus leaving us with decent players that are only good enough to achieve top 4. The longer we fail to win anything, the harder it will be to attract very good players.

 

[JPRouve]

Being coached by a great manager doesn't mean that you have a clue about coaching, man-management and all the intangibles required to be great, and it definitely doesn't mean that you will receive his knowledge through osmosis. You often see fans mention it as if it actually made sense but you just have to take the other members of the staff as a point of reference to understand how daft the concept is, the people that are actually in the coaching meeting, that are brainstorming with the manager can't emulate what the manager does, even the few examples of staff members becoming great themselves show that they do it with their own ideas, their own personality they don't try to emulate their mentors and are talented coaches themselves.

 

[Rozay]

I'm sorry Ole certainly doesnt have 80-90% of these things compared to what Sir Alex had. Some of his footballs were reminiscent of Jose's than Sir Alex. Playing as an underdog against smaller teams.

But yeah youre right, it's almost as if every ex United players still think football like the old days where devotion and United way (the proper way) will lead you somewhere. It is also represented by the fans that think sacking manager too early is wrong and United way is the best way. There is a problem with this thinking however because PL and the footballing world in general have more filthy rich clubs than in 90's and they could snatch our targets easily if we keep failing thus leaving us with decent players that are only good enough to achieve top 4. The longer we fail to win anything, the harder it will be to attract very good players.

As opposed to Sir Alex who never lined up defensively?

To me, we were not the best footballing side, even under Sir Alex. Arsenal, in the main, played better football than us in my opinion.

 

[tenpoless]

As opposed to Sir Alex who never lined up defensively?

To me, we were not the best footballing side, even under Sir Alex. Arsenal, in the main, played better football than us in my opinion.

Sir Alex did line up defensively from time to time. But the majority of time we did not play like an underdog against smaller teams.

Yeah which is why its stupid that some people think we have to play beautiful modern football. Even during Sir Alex era we didnt always play beautiful, fluid football. We did however see how Sir Alex always tried to get the best out of his squad and did not shy away from making subs and try to change plans midgame. Thats a massive difference between Sir Alex and Ole.

 

[Rozay]

I will say that one of Sir Alex's main skills that Ole seems to have picked up but none of SAF's other protégés have demonstrated is top notch man management, in particular of highly accomplished and highly paid players. Players seem to like playing for him, the atmosphere around the club is good, and they're motivated.

Indeed, I think he’s excelled in that department. He’s done a lot of Fergie things, but the problem is, the United Way of 1999 doesn’t win titles today, and it appears to be all he knows.

 

[Gio]

The pool of players that Ferguson managed is a drop in the ocean compared to the breadth of potential managers across the entirety of the game. As such it's highly unlikely one of his former players will be blessed with the almost unique range of attributes required to be an elite manager. The odds are against it. That said, the high proportion of effective managers who have come through under his leadership speaks to the successful attitudes and behaviours he was able to establish in his teams.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

35 ex SAF players have went into management, including players like Keane and Robson. 2 of the most respected leaders United have ever had and I think its fair to say not 1 of the 35 has become a top tier manager. So a big no from me.

 

[elnorte]

As opposed to Sir Alex who never lined up defensively?

To me, we were not the best footballing side, even under Sir Alex. Arsenal, in the main, played better football than us in my opinion.

The explosive style of the 06/07 and 07/08 sides were certainly more entertaining than anything Arsenal were playing at the time.

 

[tenpoless]

Ole is the only one doing well. Gary was a disaster. Roy Keane was meh. Giggs will probably end up in jail. Carrick is.... I dont know. I'm curious about Scholes actually.

Maybe Scholesy could actually become a good manager. Midfielders see the game from a broader perspective than the rest and Scholes was a genius midfielder.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

I will say that one of Sir Alex's main skills that Ole seems to have picked up but none of SAF's other protégés have demonstrated is top notch man management, in particular of highly accomplished and highly paid players. Players seem to like playing for him, the atmosphere around the club is good, and they're motivated.

It will be Interesting to see next season if we sign 3 or 4 first team players how that man management continues. I agree Ole has done a great job in that department but harmony is a lot easier when a manager plays the same 11 almost week in week out. He hasn't had to upset players like Rashford or Bruno because there was very little way of replacement with VDB being frozen out. Better players means more competition which is how a great club should be run but from now Oles job (hopefully) gets a lot harder having to make tough decisions players might not agree with.

 

[andersj]

Sir Alex has of course been the most successful PL manager, and he has had teams with real characters and leaders. Yet while a number of them have gone on to enjoy careers of varying levels of success in management, the likes of Robson, Strachan, Ince, Keane, Neville, Bruce and co have not become elite managers, despite most of them having been Sir Alex’s captains as players. Now we have another apprentice in Ole, who still refers to Fergie as the boss and makes constant references to the example that he had as a player working with ‘the best’.

My question is, is the education received under Sir Alex a gift and a curse for these managers? All of these men enjoyed the most successful spells of their playing careers under Sir Alex, and their concept on what it takes to win will undoubtedly be largely formed by the environment in which they won so much. The impression I get is that they are totally convinced that what brought them success as players will do so as managers because, well why wouldn’t they? They were literally there and have tangible evidence of how battles were won.

I think Ole has come in and done a fantastic job at 80-90% of the spec. He’s perhaps come the closest to recreating the principles of Sir Alex in terms of the spirit in the dressing room, never giving in, trying to attack from the first to the last and showing courage and character. My issue is, in today’s game, there is a crucial ingredient that he could not possibly have gotten from Fergie. And I think this may be what holds him back from the elite. I do worry that all ex-Fergie players simply try to recreate the 90s almost. And it will be their downfall. But it’s what they know, it’s all they have experienced of success at an elite level.

But Ferguson always managed to renew himself. I’m confident that a ten year younger Ferguson would have picked up on a few of the principles of Klopp and Pep, and maybe even Pochettino and Conte. I mean, both Conte and Pochettino where people he was curious about very early.

 

[Rozay]

But Ferguson always managed to renew himself. I’m confident that a ten year younger Ferguson would have picked up on a few of the principles of Klopp and Pep, and maybe even Pochettino and Conte. I mean, both Conte and Pochettino where people he was curious about very early.

Perhaps. We will never know. All good things also come to an end, and everyone has their time. I think for him personally, he got out at the right time.

 

[Skills]

Probably not. I've said this before, but the players Fergie kept around were good followers, those who took his word for gospel & executed his wishes.

To be one of those, what you generally tend to lack is critical thinking and natural ingenuity. In terms of leadership - they were enforcers who did as Fergie wished, but I don't think any of them offered anything new or out of the box.

 

[stw2022]

Of course. But “he needs to be given time because he played under Fergie” will always be preposterous.

Ferguson was hungry and driven and angry for success. He wasn’t laid back, not saying boo to a goose who was too afraid to drop injured players

 

[Adnan]

Indeed, I think he’s excelled in that department. He’s done a lot of Fergie things, but the problem is, the United Way of 1999 doesn’t win titles today, and it appears to be all he knows.

Tbh with you, Ole hasn't even shown a will to play the way we played in 1999. We played high intensity football in 1999, with risk, where we sacrificed defensive stability for goals. Our team under Ole has thus far been anti-1999.

 

[andersj]

All good things also come to an end, and everyone has their time. I think for him personally, he got out at the right time.

In my opinion, the way he picked up on Vitor Frades periodization and hired Queiroz to implement it a few years before Mourinho and Benitez started winning everything, summed him up.

To stay on top for more than thirty years you have to seek to renew yourself. A key difference between him and Mourinho. Probably a key difference between Ferguson and most others.

 

[Rozay]

In my opinion, the way he picked up on Vitor Frades periodization and hired Queiroz to implement it a few years before Mourinho and Benitez started winning everything, summed him up.

To stay on top for more than thirty years you have to seek to renew yourself. A key difference between him and Mourinho. Probably a key difference between Ferguson and most others.

Yea for sure, bringing in Queiroz probably added a few more titles in real terms. Ole could do with his own Quieroz. From the outside, this club of Ole, Carrick and Fletcher is likely not progressive enough, and look backwards more than forwards. Which is of course, speculation on my part.

 

[united_99]

But I keep reading here McClaren, Queiroz & Co. actually coached our players. So should they not be picking up ideas more from them rather than from SAF?

On a more serious note very few ex players are successful managers. How many ex players from Del Bosque, Wenger, Hitzfeld, LvG, Ancelotti, etc. are successful managers nowadays?
Zidane has played under a few, would be interesting to know who influenced him the most.
Also Lampard and Pirlo played under so many different managers and so far they haven’t been hugely successful. But both are rookie managers and have a lot of time still.

 

[yumtum]

Sir Alex is quite literally one in a million, actually, probably closer to one in ten million - I don't think people quite understand how rare of a person SAF is, if we're going by world population, depending if you think he's one in a million or one in ten million, there are only 780/7800 people like him in the world - what are the chances some of those 780/7800 people are his ex players?

Please note - my math be be out due to day drinking, I do love Sir Alex though.

 

[Rozay]

But I keep reading here McClaren, Queiroz & Co. actually coached our players. So should they not be picking up ideas more from them rather than from SAF?

On a more serious note very few ex players are successful managers. How many ex players from Del Bosque, Wenger, Hitzfeld, LvG, Ancelotti, etc. are successful managers nowadays?
Zidane has played under a few, would be interesting to know who influenced him the most.
Also Lampard and Pirlo played under so many different managers and so far they haven’t been hugely successful. But both are rookie managers and have a lot of time still.

This is not meant as a competition as to which top managers produces the best successors. It’s a question as to whether Fergie can produce any, because they all seem to try to instil outdated philosophies.

It’s not about chance, it’s a question as to whether there is a cause and effect issue at play.

 

[2 man midfield]

I thought we moved past trying to recreate Ferguson's reign years ago?

We had "we need a British manager, it's United tradition" which resulted in David Moyes.
We had "we need a manager who will be here for 20 year like Ferguson" which resulted in David Moyes.

Then we had the debacle where people thought Ryan Giggs should get the job full time after Van Gaal was sacked because he "knew the club".

Just hire the best managers available until one of them brings you success. Liverpool, City and Chelsea know the score.

We’re still at it now, unless Ole was sacked and I missed it

 

[izzydiggler]

Elite managers are hugely rare...if all it took was working under another one to gain the skills, then there'd be thousands.

It's not the same obviously but nobody would think if a Sunday League player got to train with Messi they'd suddenly become a great player...I'm not sure why people seem to think it with managers.

 

[R77]

I don't think it would be possible to be an elite manager these days without taking on board some of the post-Pep, Gegenpressing, new school of German style tactical disciplines. Unless someone is savvy enough to further the game similarly, of course. The game's changed a great deal. I suppose you could point to Zidane as an argument against that, but that's a set of circumstances almost as unique as the one with Fergie himself.

In any case, considering the above, I think it takes a certain kind of intelligence, charisma, and adaptability I'm not certain any of the players I can think of have, so the answer is probably no.

This is just an abstract Ole-out trap anyway, right? Should the question not be; could Solksjaer successfully implement modern coaching methods? Is he ruthless and savvy enough to shake up the back-room team along these lines? We'll see soon eh.

 

[united_99]

This is not meant as a competition as to which top managers produces the best successors. It’s a question as to whether Fergie can produce any, because they all seem to try to instil outdated philosophies.

It’s not about chance, it’s a question as to whether there is a cause and effect issue at play.

Well obviously it’s not about competition but it’s clear to see that most ex players (and even most ex assistants/coaching staff) of most of the successful managers don’t become good managers themselves.

 

[Foxbatt]

Ancelloti is a good example of a successful manager who played for a successful manager. But very rare as you say. Now a days most successful manager do not have a good record of playing top football. Maybe Pep and Zidane. Even Pep was not the star of the team.

 

[shamans]

You have to understand managing a premier league club in itself is a very elite level of football management.

Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes etc are in the grand scheme of things elite. I think solkjaer eventually will go to some German lower division club.

 

[pascell]

SAF was brilliant at knowing which area in his coaching team needing improving and his staff recruitment was what made him so great. He's said before that he delegated training duties to his coaches and assistant manager and watched on.

Most of our faults under Ole come from the training ground and the staff that are taking the sessions. The defence is awfully structured and organised, the midfield has no balance or provides anything in attack, the attack are told to rely on instinct and we're still conceding very sloppy goals from set pieces. These are things that can be improved on massively from the training ground alone, we don't have to keep spending vast amounts to paper over the cracks to become successful.

 

[Buster15]

There is only one SAF. This pipe dream that there can be another is whats killing us. We need to be ruthless if we want to win stuff. If another SAF comes along, great. But lets stop trying to force it.

Exactly.
Sir Alex Ferguson was and always will be a uniquely special person. No amount of study will be even remotely close to imitation.
And imitation never works anyway.
His characteristics and achievements will live forever.
Even now, you watch and listen to him and that razor sharp brain, passion, spirit and will to win burns just as deep as ever.
That is what makes him unique.
In my view, just naming a stand after him is nothing like enough.
Old Trafford should be renamed The Alex Ferguson Stadium.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Ole obviously closest so far, sad that he can't improve because he has managed over 100 prem games

 

[Buster15]

SAF was brilliant at knowing which area in his coaching team needing improving and his staff recruitment was what made him so great. He's said before that he delegated training duties to his coaches and assistant manager and watched on.

Most of our faults under Ole come from the training ground and the staff that are taking the sessions. The defence is awfully structured and organised, the midfield has no balance or provides anything in attack, the attack are told to rely on instinct and we're still conceding very sloppy goals from set pieces. These are things that can be improved on massively from the training ground alone, we don't have to keep spending vast amounts to paper over the cracks to become successful.

Bang on.
I often wonder how many players in the current squad would he tolerate. Definitely McTominay and Bruno and a few others like Shaw, Maguire Rashford and Greenwood. But not many others.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Ancelloti is a good example of a successful manager who played for a successful manager. But very rare as you say. Now a days most successful manager do not have a good record of playing top football. Maybe Pep and Zidane. Even Pep was not the star of the team.

Pep was grand but also a drug cheat, a really uninspiring career

 

[Raoul]

Sir Alex has of course been the most successful PL manager, and he has had teams with real characters and leaders. Yet while a number of them have gone on to enjoy careers of varying levels of success in management, the likes of Robson, Strachan, Ince, Keane, Neville, Bruce and co have not become elite managers, despite most of them having been Sir Alex’s captains as players. Now we have another apprentice in Ole, who still refers to Fergie as the boss and makes constant references to the example that he had as a player working with ‘the best’.

My question is, is the education received under Sir Alex a gift and a curse for these managers? All of these men enjoyed the most successful spells of their playing careers under Sir Alex, and their concept on what it takes to win will undoubtedly be largely formed by the environment in which they won so much. The impression I get is that they are totally convinced that what brought them success as players will do so as managers because, well why wouldn’t they? They were literally there and have tangible evidence of how battles were won.

I think Ole has come in and done a fantastic job at 80-90% of the spec. He’s perhaps come the closest to recreating the principles of Sir Alex in terms of the spirit in the dressing room, never giving in, trying to attack from the first to the last and showing courage and character. My issue is, in today’s game, there is a crucial ingredient that he could not possibly have gotten from Fergie. And I think this may be what holds him back from the elite. I do worry that all ex-Fergie players simply try to recreate the 90s almost. And it will be their downfall. But it’s what they know, it’s all they have experienced of success at an elite level.

Yes, but not because they are a Fergie protégé, but rather because they create their own management style and ethos that is independent from their time under SAF.

 

[Foxbatt]

Bang on.
I often wonder how many players in the current squad would he tolerate. Definitely McTominay and Bruno and a few others like Shaw, Maguire Rashford and Greenwood. But not many others.

How many games is he going to let Rashford be selfish and try and take on the entire defense? I remember he made Ronaldo cry after the Benfica game when he tried to take on Benfica all by himself.
Liverpool tried this same method and failed miserably. Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result is called insanity.

 

[Foxbatt]

Ole is not the most successful player to manage who played for SAF.