When will people understand simply changing the formation won't change the way we play. You still have to coach a team to play a certain way regardless of formation. It's as futile as those arguments on whether to play Mkhitaryan at RW or #10, or Martial/Rashford LW or through the middle. It's all just change without substance and it doesn't rectify our core problems.
Can we please stop using 4-2-3-1?!
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The 352 was working well wasn't it?
This formation is bad even in fifa!
Mostly because of the shite LVG signed.
We don't have a Lampard or a Deco: someone who can disrupt players positionally between the lines. In this squad, only Lingard and Mkhitaryan are capable of that, which is why we're having to play a #10. (Incidentally, this is also the reason why Mata doesn't play centrally.)
Mourinho isn't married to the formation, he's married to the system.
Mourinho isn't married to the formation, he's married to the system.
Depends how you play it. I've won numerous titles with it on fifa.
I'm having flashbacks to LVG's tenure and the endless formation debates.
We were playing 4231 at the start of the season when we were playing so well. I can't believe it is now the source of our problems and changing formation will solve them.
We were playing 4231 at the start of the season when we were playing so well. I can't believe it is now the source of our problems and changing formation will solve them.
You are probably right & that's why I think Jose is showing an inability to get the best out of his squad. A good manager who is not very flexible with his methods.
Laughing at this
all the people you were claiming were just knee jerk reactions, are you sure they just didn’t see all this a lot sooner and this is just you catching up to what people have been noticing since about 4 weeks in to last season?Because I’m sorry it’s hardly knee jerk when it’s been the same consistent issues for 18 months. People just decided to ignore them and try and write off the concerns of others as knee jerk because they didn’t want to see the truth.
Anyway yeah this 4231 is awful, the shape and tactics don’t get the best out of the players we have. Pogba and Matic get over run in midfield and weirdly Matic seems to be the one getting in to the positions we want Pogba to be in and Pogba seems to be sitting back. Clearly it’s not working. We have a fast powerful team and we don’t play to it’s strengths witch is a massive managerial mistake to not notice this.
I get he ones to stay tight and protect but it’s having a real detriment on the team, our players look terrified and don’t take any risks at all, and even when it’s a risk like running in to space or beyond a player that would be beneficial they don’t do it. That’s just really bad management. Fed up of our players always getting the blame. Yes they should do better but the finger needs to get pointed at Jose.
We’ve actually looked a lot better in 352 able to control and dictate games and look sound at doing so, which is just a million miles away from the shambles we look in 4231. We have a fast powerful team that should be taking positional risks and playing balls in to space so guys can run on to it and take advantage of that instead of this slow build then pump it long to a guy playing as a target forward who isn’t a target forward. It’s just really poor management. I can’t get over how rubbish Jose has actually been, sorry but he’s looks clueless.
@Sied were we playing well tho? Because a lot of people including myself could see we really weren’t, even the BT pundits made mention of it yesterday. We were scoring in the last 10 minutes when the game was already won but those games weren’t played well at all. The same things happening now were happening then to.
We started with a 4-3-3 vs Bristol City and that worked... Oh wait, it didn't! People can bang on about formations all they want but they don't win you games, teams do.
played it at madrid with ozil 10. set record for goals in la liga
it isn't the formation
This. Having a 10 doesn't make sense, because Pogba can't operate in those areas the 10 plays in. This is made doubly worse when our 10 is Lingard, who has his uses, but is not the most inventive of players. Then you factor in Mata who always plays in and around the central areas.
We're not getting the best out of Pogba.
Squad is paper thin in certain areas. We're going to have Rashford and Martial as our only fit strikers. Both of whom are pretty much our only options for left wing. Perhaps it's time to call up and actually utilise some of the youngsters, giving them half an hour toward to end of games and allowing our players some rest can't really hurt us.
With the way it’s sounding in regards to the January window, that might be our best option at the moment.
Which games were those?
Well this happens if you play with a 10 that isn't a midfielder and an 8 that has the instinct to attack rather than to defend.
I’d love to sit down with Jose over a coffee and discuss this and in his general approach so far. I think it’s the only way it would possibly make sense to me.
Completely agree. Formations can improve a team defensively but don't do much for the attack. Yes you can have better suited formations for your players but I don't think we have the players for any particular formation.
You are not wrong. A formation can help you though with playing your best players in the position or role they are most comfortable with. But of course they can't make up for a lack of fighting spirit and/or quality in the squad.
My thread worked.
Get the feeing Jose only played a 433 today though, to provide more bodies in there for Matic, who has looked pretty tired of late.
It is a revelation for Pogba.
I think Martial was fine but would probably be better at the top of a 4231 (when the 10 can run beyond him), but his interchanging with ingard did the same thing in the 4-3-3.
I think Martial was fine but would probably be better at the top of a 4231 (when the 10 can run beyond him), but his interchanging with ingard did the same thing in the 4-3-3.
As long as we play a 3 man midfield with Pogba further forward we will control games more and have more possession. We can all see this suits us and Pogba best. I would like another top midfielder alongside Matic. Jorginho or Fabinho would be great.
If we looked so good with 3-5-2 how come we gave Arsenal so many chances?
Formation sometimes depend on the opposition. But I see there's a myth we looked the best with 3-5-2.
I agree though that 4-3-3 is the way to go, we just need more depth in midfield and a winger or 2 too.
Formation sometimes depend on the opposition. But I see there's a myth we looked the best with 3-5-2.
I agree though that 4-3-3 is the way to go, we just need more depth in midfield and a winger or 2 too.
True but the discussion has merit when we specifically talk about Pogba's role within a given formation. He's our only world-class outfield player, we must allow him to create by giving him the minimum amount of defensive work to do. 4-2-3-1 doesn't allow for that so something like a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 diamond must be what we aim for in most games. I agree it comes down to coaching but discussion about basic formation, and more specific player roles within formations, has merit.
I assume we will go back to 4231 once Lukaku is fit
Formation isn't the reason some of our players went into bad form. This focus on formation is just the latest silver bullet consensus where everyone claims it's obvious Jose has to X.
It's never so simple.
It's never so simple.
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Chelsea won the league last season predominantly because of the formation change after the 3-0 loss to Arsenal. It can be as simple as that. Not saying that our fortunes will now change and we'll end up winning the league because of it, but it could be the solution to many of our problems.
It's because United don't have to attack after up 2 goals and sit back allowing Arsenal to attack while waiting for counter-attacking opportunity and Arsenal have nothing to lose, they just throw out everything at us and scored one goal, we scored after that, the game is over when Pogba got sent off cos we can't perform counter attacking perfectly if we don't have a Pogba so we can't sit back anymore and decided to play with the balls calmly.
I got a completely different impression from that game personally. We did well to capitalize on some defensive mistakes by Arsenal to get 2-0 up but after that we had zero control and got completely dominated and overran in midfield. Arsenal had 33 shots with 16 on target and another 11 shots blocked which were on target, so 27 shots saved or blocked in that match.
If DeGea didn't have arguably his best game in a United shirt that game could have ended up seriously embarrassing. Thats the problem with the way we play 352, we have no control and get dominated in midfield.
Most of the shots went straight at De Gea which any goalkeeper could easily save them, De Gea only saved 3-4 shots that would need to avoid a goal, attempted by Lukaku, Sanchez and Lacatatte.
Jose's tactical in this games, it's not necessary to control the midfield and don't need to dominate the game when up 2-0 goals. it is a perfect opportunity for United to wait for counterattack chance knowing Arsenal have nothing to lose and will go out all attacking, United conserving their stamina while allowing Arsenal to have a ball most of the times. Before 2-0 up, we outplayed out Arsenal in the first 20 minutes and Arsenal scored but we responded so well by hitting the woodwork and scored goal after that and game is over when we refused to allow them to have a ball after Pogba sent off cos we can't perform counter attacking perfectly without Pogba. 3-5-2 is best for counter-attacking form, transitions are very quick from defence to attack.
Arsenal last game at Old Trafford last season, we dominated them in the first half and scored in the second half, Arsenal has no shot on target until 89 minutes to equalized 1-1.
Remember LVG? We dominated the game against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge under Jose Mourinho with over 70% possession but lost to Chelsea 1-0, it's not because that we were better cos of stats but it is part of their tactical to allow us to have the ball most of the time and made us look like world beater like we allowed Arsenal to have a ball as part of Jose Mourinho's tactical and made them look like they were the better team by so far that the performance stats suggest it.
Before we start blaming the formation for our recent results, just look at the results earlier in the season. All the 4 goal wins were in 4231 only. I think the issues are much deeper than just the formation.
Because it was a conscious decision the manager decided to shift the 352 in to a 532. It is what the formation allows us to do when we need it - not because we were forced to sit back. We don't need to be so defensive because even as a counterattacking team we can go from 532 up to 2-3-5 in seconds; that's why arsenal that day couldn't handle our attacks - we just over loaded them and Lingard as well as the fullbacks attacked the spaces in front of them.
Ppgba is our main player & he needs to play in a sprint to take the ball forward freely - playing 3 flat CB's makes the gap between defenders & midfield too big so Pogba ends up with too much defensive responsibility. Instead we need to play with a false CB who drops down from DM to guard the gaps between the 2 central CB's making a back 3 only when we need. This is the same way Lingard played as an attacker playing as a false striker finding the gaps from Am.
This type of symmetry is what allows the team eventually to go from 532 in defence up to 235 in attack and vice versa but this requires players who can centrally shift between CAM-CF as much as CDM-CB to make it work. It makes the formation a fluid formation rather than a defensive formation.
Furthermore, I'd say this formation gets best of 90% of the players in our squad or more compared to the other formations where 2/3 weaknesses can be spotted before kick off.
Come on mate DeGea had to make 16 saves and our defenders had to make 11 blocks. Whether or not some of those shots were directly at the keeper is irrelevant he still had to save them.
Theres no way Mourinhos game plan involved allowing Arsenal 33 goalscoring opportunities many of them inside our box. We got dominated and outplayed. No manager ever goes into a game wanting that to happen.
It was a great result but for me it was a terrible performance. And much like other poor performances we've had this season while playing 352 against decent teams.
It has a lot to do with how attacking we approach a formation. Do we press, force errors and commit men forward or do we sit deep, soak up pressure and hope for a counter opportunity? The game yesterday showed both approaches in one half and I think it should be clear by now that especially against the non top 6 teams we are much more comfortable if we can apply some pressure and let Pogba of the leash as much as he wants.
A fair few of those four goal wins came after we’d switched to three in midfield after introducing Fellaini. We were bagging a lot in the last 10 minutes as teams opened up and we took control of midfield with the extra man.
it is clearly Mourinho's game plan, why do you think we allowed them to have a ball most of the time in the first place? Because we want them to make a mistake so we can punish them for their mistakes to start counter-attacking, it's not the first time he did this, he did it a lot of time in his career at Chelsea, Real Madrid and Inter Milian. He knew we would concede many shots but why? Because De Gea is the best shot-stopper in the world, he has second highest saves in EPL this season, that's simple and he knows it.
So if we play 3-5-2 one of CBs should be a midfielder if I get that right?
A player inbetween midfield & CB; if you remember the way Dier played for spurs when they played 3 at the back - he played as a defender that attacked the space in front of him & dribble up to midfield whilst dropping back in to defence to become & extra man in defence when they had to be defensive.
This is what Lingard did as a AM in the other side of the pitch when playing 352, he attacked the space in front of him finding the gaps in between 2 attackers making a fluid front 3; we need this as much as we should have a CB/CDM that drops in between the 2 CB's making a fluid back 3. This should only happen when we need it because if Lingard played constantly with the strikers line there would be a gap behind him & a gap in front of midfield.
Likewise since we play with a sweeper in smalling instead of a CB/CDM; there is a huge gap in front of him & a massive gap in behind the midfield.
With the static back 3 carried by a sweeper; we have no attacking initiative, no ball carrier, no passer, no shielding of the defence & the midfield in front of them.
4-3-3 probably brings the best out of Pogba in certain games,but should we play 3 in midfield against Derby county at home?Or against Bournemouth,west ham,and almost all the bottom half mid table teams?Pogba was excellent yesterday,but he was also outstanding against Arsenal at the Emirates,and guess what?We played with just 2 midfielders that day....
So I think that we are over reacting to him performing excellently in a 3,but the lads been phenomenal even in a 2,so let's not forget that.Its utterly pointless to have Herrera and Matic in midfield against the weaker teams,1 defensive midfielder alongside a Pogba is more than enough...,