If posters stopped complaining on here the activity would be reduced by about 80%.
Can we stop complaining until we see an actual ETH XI?
- Thread starter clean-sheet-culkin
- Start date
You replace them
I dont think we need to see ten Hag have a perfectly fit XI every week to improve but the point is that we havent seen anything close to it at all.
Arteta has been at Arsenal long enough to have completely rejuvenated their squad. The only players he has are ones he's bought or one's hes deemed good enough to stay. Ten Hag is not there yet. He still has a number of players in his squad hes either actively tried to sell or would like to replace in the short-term.
De Zerbi arrived to a squad built via advanced analytics where they were bought to play a very specific style. He himself was recruited via the data, seen as the perfect manager to continue whats was already a well run project. United are not in the same position. We have a squad built based on a numerous re-builds, chosen based on each managers style of play, which are completely different from each other.
It would be disingenuous to compare ten Hag at United to these two clubs in the first place, but to do so in the middle of an injury crisis as deep as the one we're currently in and then criticise the manager is ridiculous.
Arsenal finished 2nd last year and did so by playing one game a week and having the lowest lineup variation of any team in the league. They lost Saliba for a few games at the end and everyones decided that single injury was sufficient explanation for why they could no longer compete.
We've dropped points in 10 games since we won the carabao cup.
80% of those were against last seasons top 8 (this seasons top 6)
80% of those were away from home
80% of those we were not able to field the crucial defensive trio of Martinez, Varane and Casemiro
Our first 6 games of this season include games against Arsenal, Spurs, Brighton and Bayern. When you're in the midst of a system overhaul (moving to the single pivot with two attacking 8's) and then have to change systems again due to losing 11 outfield players (the diamond), the last thing you need is to be playing against top quality opposition. There are probably only 4 other teams in the world that would be more difficult to face during this period.
If our biggest rivals had the injuries we have right now, they would barely be able to field an 11 let alone fill a bench. We're going to see a number of players coming back over the next couple of weeks, they'll settle in and we'll see an improvement. Lets not kill the manager for having a blip. If we're still in the bottom half come January when everyone is fit, then its a different conversation.
Arteta has been at Arsenal long enough to have completely rejuvenated their squad. The only players he has are ones he's bought or one's hes deemed good enough to stay. Ten Hag is not there yet. He still has a number of players in his squad hes either actively tried to sell or would like to replace in the short-term.
De Zerbi arrived to a squad built via advanced analytics where they were bought to play a very specific style. He himself was recruited via the data, seen as the perfect manager to continue whats was already a well run project. United are not in the same position. We have a squad built based on a numerous re-builds, chosen based on each managers style of play, which are completely different from each other.
It would be disingenuous to compare ten Hag at United to these two clubs in the first place, but to do so in the middle of an injury crisis as deep as the one we're currently in and then criticise the manager is ridiculous.
Arsenal finished 2nd last year and did so by playing one game a week and having the lowest lineup variation of any team in the league. They lost Saliba for a few games at the end and everyones decided that single injury was sufficient explanation for why they could no longer compete.
We've dropped points in 10 games since we won the carabao cup.
80% of those were against last seasons top 8 (this seasons top 6)
80% of those were away from home
80% of those we were not able to field the crucial defensive trio of Martinez, Varane and Casemiro
Our first 6 games of this season include games against Arsenal, Spurs, Brighton and Bayern. When you're in the midst of a system overhaul (moving to the single pivot with two attacking 8's) and then have to change systems again due to losing 11 outfield players (the diamond), the last thing you need is to be playing against top quality opposition. There are probably only 4 other teams in the world that would be more difficult to face during this period.
If our biggest rivals had the injuries we have right now, they would barely be able to field an 11 let alone fill a bench. We're going to see a number of players coming back over the next couple of weeks, they'll settle in and we'll see an improvement. Lets not kill the manager for having a blip. If we're still in the bottom half come January when everyone is fit, then its a different conversation.
This season is crucial for EtH and the Club. We've been unlucky with injuries so far this season and why we signed players already injured sums up the board. Once he gets a steady team and they can get motivated, we will begin to win games, I hope. Issues with Sancho and Antony may still derail any progress. Worse case will be Antony in Jail and Sancho sold in January or maybe that's not the worse case. I hope he bloods more of the kids to add some energy and ambition instead of this passing back crap once they get to the penalty area. Still not sure about the 'keeper and Varane is getting to fragile to last a season.
Nope. Doesnt work like that at all. You have to make the most of the players you have not just write off the now and expect to be judged in 2 years when you have 6 different players on top of the changes you've already made.
Rashford is a good example. Great last season playing to his strengths, now you're asking him to be a pressing attacker who spends a lot of his energy when we dont have the ball playing for the team tactic. I'm not for one second saying he shouldnt be trying harder, pressing with more intensity and effort than he has been in the video and in general. But is it a surprise that your star player of last season is struggling several games into the season being expected to do something quite different and clearly not to his strength? No. Not really.
What most likely happens is 1 of 2 things :
1) The manager changes the tactics for the players we have. At least for 1 or 2 star players like Rashford. If you want a worker bee in his left side position then play him as a striker. Perhaps Hojland would be more up for it playing from the side.
2) We sell Rashford and buy a lesser player who enjoys pressing, tracking back and working hard for the team without the ball as well as with it. Now you need to get 30 goals from somewhere... Easier said than done.
Theres an outside chance that Rashford might eventually change as a player, buy into the hard work without the ball and the tactics. And if he does thats credit to him because he doesnt have to. But realistically changing the nature of a star player is unlikely. He could easily think he'll be better off at a top team that arent asking him to man mark CBs and yes he will get those offers.
The video itself points out one of the most damning things. Despite our attackers not dilligently carrying out the tactics, we have the highest turnovers in advanced positions. And we dont convert. Our actual attack has been poor in general and from winning those balls.
So there is no proof that we're actually better off having our attacking players constantly working to mark players out of the buildup, rather than having them be as dangerous as possible when we get the ball and go forward.
Sure he's dealt a bad hand. But we're not expecting grand slam either. Just something progress towards good football. We're regressing badly in this department.
Injury happens. Freak result happens. But this is no injury nor freakish result. This is a team bereft of identity in what brand they want to play.
Substitute may not play as good as first XI but still i expect them to slot in and know what they're supposed to do as a team
If god forbid they're not good enough and beaten 1 on 1 then tough luck. But the whole team got beaten on tactics and gameplay
Mate if its clearly not his strength to press with intensity, not even remotely, then he shouldn't be your star player.
1- Once you change your entire principles for 1 or 2 players, you'd asking for a problem. SAF might have done it once for Ronaldo, Barca for Messi etc. You don't do it for Rashford ffs.
Hojlund is a striker, not a left winger. In fact, Rashford's team keeps moaning that he prefers playing on the left side, so he can't play ST.
2- For one, Rashford isn't going to get 30 goals a season consistently season after season. He's got 30 goals/season once maybe in his entire career so far? What were his tallies before that?
Two, once you have a player that actually presses, tracks back, and works hard for team, the team itself will be more relaxed and be more in control. More control/stability will equal more chances to our forwards which would imply more goals with good finishers (Hojlund, another striker).
This narrative that "its okay not to track back cause he's the star player or the only one doing anything" needs to die.
The bolded part is what gives player power. He actually has to, or else he'll be out of the squad within a few seasons because his manager wants him to do that and he's not doing it. Once the club decide its the manager who needs to go (let's be honest, its cheaper) then we repeat the cycle again and again.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but he's not going to get that offer at top top clubs like City or Liverpool (2 seasons ago), where the entire team presses together without carrying 1 passenger.
Sure he might get it at Chelsea who like to collect players and have tolerance for stars, but the real top clubs will not tolerate this at all, unless you're prime Messi/Ronaldo.
Mate there's injuries and then there's playing Wout fecking Weghorst for 20 games because we have no one else. We were basically playing with 10 men in attack for a long period of time last season.
No manager gets to really have fully uninjured starting 11. I mean Brighton battered us on the weekend missing 6 of their main players.
Probably should have told him that before he scored so many goals last season.
Finding a player who will score that amount of goals whilst wanting to do loads of man marking of defenders and tracking back all game is extremely hard. We find it hard just to find a good player to spend money on and not pay £20 million more than they're worth and thats before asking them to do specific things they werent doing before and arent asked for at another club that wants to sign them.
It may not be unreasonable but it’s reasonable to ask the players he does have available to step up but they won’t hence the never ending circle of “is it the manager is it the players”
To be honest,
with injuries etc we dont have the team to play like that. Why not go a deep 4231 and just try to stay in the game and utilise our pace. We end up doing that anyway with the route one to rashford except the failed press that left us wide open all game means we are already 2 or 3 goals down
with injuries etc we dont have the team to play like that. Why not go a deep 4231 and just try to stay in the game and utilise our pace. We end up doing that anyway with the route one to rashford except the failed press that left us wide open all game means we are already 2 or 3 goals down
I would be massively shocked if that was the case.
What is "ETH XI"? Do we want Ten Had to pick every player in the squad now? Or do we want a DoF to oversee transfer strategy?
There are question marks over most players ETH brought for a total of 400m over the last two seasons.
I agree there are excuses all over the place for ETH, but it's not like he's been flawless with his choices, both in terms of personnel but also tactics/subs through the game.
There are question marks over most players ETH brought for a total of 400m over the last two seasons.
I agree there are excuses all over the place for ETH, but it's not like he's been flawless with his choices, both in terms of personnel but also tactics/subs through the game.
There's playing Wout Werghost because he dont have an eye for better loan.
Tell me you can't fish for 10-20M striker as a stop gap or at least loan a more usefull player than Wout whatever his name.
Poor planning.
Yet he was still better than Martial!
Whose fault was that? We could've signed a forward or two for the money spent on Antony
Shaw and Varane being injured isnt exactly a rare occurence, Anthony isnt exactly a huge miss so 3 first choice players missing is bad, but its not the massive crisis you make it out to beOle didnt' have near enough the injuries Ten Hag had in these games.
It annoys me with the whole "oh I cant see the style of play" when he's got no LB, no back up LB, the emergency LB doesnt know his team mates, no RW, no backup RW, no LCB, the backup LCB also out and a striker building up to 90 minute games.
I wonder fecking why we can't see patterns of play
Thats untrue. Shaw had a good record for us last year, licha is still getting back to fitness evidently and Varane obv being out all at once is a big blow. Malacia being shaws back up just exasperated it, as Reguilon naturally needs to bed in.
But aside from that we lost fred and the two signings we have to start in our midfield are both injured.
It means both cas and Eriksen need to play more minutes than what's ideal for them whilst having a makeshift defence behind. Its actually pretty massive.
Worth noting we lost our control to Arsenal when we lost licha and Martinez on top of all the other injuries. And when we lost to Brighton we were obviously without the right winger on top.
What is an actuall 11 from him? A whole new team?
Against Brighton 6 of the players that started came in under him. First choice or not, he signed off on them. He had the majority of his players in that team
Against Brighton 6 of the players that started came in under him. First choice or not, he signed off on them. He had the majority of his players in that team
Conveniently ignoring the third place finish last year.
If not staring an entire xi of players you've hand picked was a valid excuse for failure, every manager in the league except Pep would have an excuse to fail and produce garbage football.
The only reason this argument has any credence is because this is in fact what a vast majority of managers in the PL do.
But then the criticisms/concerns I'd have over ETH this season aren't based on who he can't play, they're based on him doing some really daft things with the players he is able to pick, and in some cases chose to sign. E.g. Mount would be part of an ETH xi...in midfield...next to Fernandes. This causes me to believe that whatever the ETH XI is, needs somewhat of a rethink..
The only reason this argument has any credence is because this is in fact what a vast majority of managers in the PL do.
But then the criticisms/concerns I'd have over ETH this season aren't based on who he can't play, they're based on him doing some really daft things with the players he is able to pick, and in some cases chose to sign. E.g. Mount would be part of an ETH xi...in midfield...next to Fernandes. This causes me to believe that whatever the ETH XI is, needs somewhat of a rethink..
Plus the ones that have been extended, like Rashford and Dalot.
Nah nothing wrong with saying we are doing terrible so far
Agree. He had enough quality on the pitch to beat both Brighton and Spurs.
What i cant get over, is the fact ETH would rather change the system to a 442 diamond just because Anthony is not available.
The excuses he is making too are starting to sound quite pathetic. Saying that he has never been able to put his best XI on the pitch is giving the team a ready made excuse.
Ultimately we can't judge Ten Hag's decisions over the summer until we've seen Onana, Amrabat, Mount and Hojlund more involved.
I think Onana and Hojlund are clear improvements so far despite not all fans thinking that about Onana yet.... they will in the coming months.
It remains to be seen whether Mount will ever become a good CM as Ten Hag thinks he will. It also remains to be seen whether Ten Hag will ever use Amrabat alongside Casemiro which many United fans feel would actually be our best combination for playing the better teams and away from home.
I hope Ten Hag is being coy and Amrabat will play alongside Casemiro and that he was bought to address the away from home results.
If that isn't the case, Ten Hag could be in deep feckery by Christmas.
I think Onana and Hojlund are clear improvements so far despite not all fans thinking that about Onana yet.... they will in the coming months.
It remains to be seen whether Mount will ever become a good CM as Ten Hag thinks he will. It also remains to be seen whether Ten Hag will ever use Amrabat alongside Casemiro which many United fans feel would actually be our best combination for playing the better teams and away from home.
I hope Ten Hag is being coy and Amrabat will play alongside Casemiro and that he was bought to address the away from home results.
If that isn't the case, Ten Hag could be in deep feckery by Christmas.
At times, I think people expect too much. It's inconsistent to say that we are quite far away from the level of City/Arsenal and then to say at the same time that EtH needs to get results now.
I'm looking back at last season and I'm wondering how on earth did EtH manage to get 75 points with that squad?
I'm looking back at last season and I'm wondering how on earth did EtH manage to get 75 points with that squad?
That will be consistent with fans wanting to pay whatever it takes for a player in summer and then wonder why our transfer amounts and wages are so high after window is closed.
The other thing is if you can't on a single occasion in over a year pick your preferred strongest XI, you have to start wondering why.
I'm sure we had games last season where everyone he'd ordinarily pick was fit, unless he counts players he hasn't been able to sign yet, which is exactly the same as saying "the problem is i can't pick my preferred world xi"
He hasn't lost me yet but I would say a majority of the trust I thought he built up last season he's wiped away so is more or less back at square 1.
Im sure he has picked his best XI many times in the past year. If he is including players from other teams, well that is just pathetic.
Yeah, that's true but it takes time. For example, by the time we've replaced all that's needed, casemiro, varane, for example, will then need replacing to. The poor management of the squad for years is also stinging us.
That video breakdown is actually shocking. Apathy personified.
Rashford and Højlund should be set down and made to watch videos of Tevez and Rooney to learn what workrate out of your strikers is meant to look like.
One hopes that a fit Amrabat will bring the fire to midfield that Eriksen and McSauce cannot or will not provide.
Rashford and Højlund should be set down and made to watch videos of Tevez and Rooney to learn what workrate out of your strikers is meant to look like.
One hopes that a fit Amrabat will bring the fire to midfield that Eriksen and McSauce cannot or will not provide.
Good post
Shaw, historicaly speaking has had a pretty terrible injury record, so him being fit an entire season is unsual. Yes, we have injuries, especially in defense, not having a fully fit squad should not shield the manager from all critisim
Not ignoring anything. We've had a rotten start to the season and for any other manager post-Fergie, getting CL football has been the minimum benchmark and i dont see how it should be any different for ETH.
How's that been going for us for the last decade?
Great post!
Too bad 10-sec-attention-span whinny babies and armchair managers question a man they've "fully supported" after a month of bad results in EXTREME circumstances, so your post won't do anything to convince them otherwise.
Frankly, just "11 outfield players out" should suffice anyway.
Can we complain now?
No
I'll allow it
And what is that mate?
Pretty sure Lindelof is in ETHs good book and that would make our todays CB partnership with the GK ETHs choice.
Dalot is an ok option so there is no issue there.
We can only say that if we had a LB Amrabat would have played instead of Mount or Casemiro. Everything else was under the managers control including playing Pellistri. He got a bunch of players he wanted, degraded the players he didnt rate and made a public example of them.
Nah mate its time to get pissed
Pretty sure Lindelof is in ETHs good book and that would make our todays CB partnership with the GK ETHs choice.
Dalot is an ok option so there is no issue there.
We can only say that if we had a LB Amrabat would have played instead of Mount or Casemiro. Everything else was under the managers control including playing Pellistri. He got a bunch of players he wanted, degraded the players he didnt rate and made a public example of them.
Nah mate its time to get pissed