Can we talk about the elephant in the room when it comes to purging this squad?

[Fortitude]

Who do you want to shift and who can’t we shift due to their wages?

If a manger wants rid of any from:

De Gea, Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Martial, Rashford (high earners) and they don’t entertain leaving, what happens? There are a lot of other players who can go, but I don’t think they are paid an exorbitant wage so the issue isn’t the same with them.

Why can’t any of our players be coached?

The question you should ask is: what if they can’t be coached and the manager decides he wants rid? and then we loop back to the crux of the matter.

Name a club that has replaced the whole playing squad in one summer?

I don’t know what relevance this has unless you believe high earners who a manger doesn’t want should be ushered into the background eating up budget whilst not contributing in accordance with their wage.

We are losing a high number of players on frees. Fact. We will sell and move on others. Fact. The new manager will have money to spend. Fact.

These facts have no relevance to the discussion, do they? In fact, you’ve done everything but address what I asked you. How will we sell high earners that don’t want to leave? If you have said high earners wages to deal with, how much can you devote to players coming in? If you don’t see the conundrum, you don’t wish to see it.

What’s the issue here

Well, that depends on how you answer what I’m asking you in this reply. If you come up with logical reasoning and explanation for how it’s not an issue, the conversation can end on your word.

 

[nomdeplume1325]

United are the pyramid head of a monster Sky started to build decades ago.

I think the days of every player contract being an asset might be over. Maybe a handful of players (e.g. a peak Messi or Ronaldo), but otherwise player contracts should be right off as liabilities. That would lead to clubs not bidding too much for players, not paying wages that are too high and not giving overly long contracts.

but football is still in the dark ages when it comes to Economics.

 

[TheReligion]

If a manger wants rid of any from:

De Gea, Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Martial, Rashford (high earners) and they don’t entertain leaving, what happens? There are a lot of other players who can go, but I don’t think they are paid an exorbitant wage so the issue isn’t the same with them.



The question you should ask is: what if they can’t be coached and the manager decides he wants rid? and then we loop back to the crux of the matter.


I don’t know what relevance this has unless you believe high earners who a manger doesn’t want should be ushered into the background eating up budget whilst not contributing in accordance with their wage.


These facts have no relevance to the discussion, do they? In fact, you’ve done everything but address what I asked you. How will we sell high earners that don’t want to leave? If you have said high earners wages to deal with, how much can you devote to players coming in? If you don’t see the conundrum, you don’t wish to see it.

Well, that depends on how you answer what I’m asking you in this reply. If you come up with logical reasoning and explanation for how it’s not an issue, the conversation can end on your word.

You’re talking like you’ve made a great discovery and unearthed something everyone else has missed. It’s nothing new. Teams need rebuilds all the time and have players which they need to move on. It’s happened to Arsenal on numerous occasions. Again it’s nothing new.

We don’t need an entire new squad. Many of these players will rightly be given the opportunity under a new regime. I also believe many won’t and that’s part of Rangnick’s job to give the new manager a head start. If they can’t be coached they will move on. Again this is nothing new.

The whole thread is pointless

 

[Acheron]

I think you guys set up like this by backing the players more than your manager when you had Mourinho in charge. It doesn't have to be Mourinho specifcally but when you have a bunch of overpaid and underperforming players the team as an institution should prioritize team performances and results in order to have the right culture.

When he was at Real Madrid it was the perfect time as we were getting embarrassed in Champions League every single year, the team needed some discipline and catch up to Barcelona instead of pandering to our overpaid players. There were conflicts with him and the players but the team got rid of him and the toxic players; and I can't really comprehend why have you kept players like Pogba around for so long when the've done so little at the club. So it seems Manchester United has relied only on offering massive wages to lure players in but this also hinders them when trying to move them on and they stick to their players for way too long to the point they lose a lot of their market value.

 

[Red_toad]

Player power is easily overcome by dropping them out of the team and replacing them with academy players. Club needs to back the next manager 100%.
I don’t get how fans think all of our players have suddenly decided they don’t want to be successful. The players are just 1 of the problems. Not the only problem. That match v Everton, what were our tactics? They looked lost.

 

[Fortitude]

You’re talking like you’ve made a great discovery and unearthed something everyone else has missed. It’s nothing new. Teams need rebuilds all the time and have players which they need to move on. It’s happened to Arsenal on numerous occasions. Again it’s nothing new.

We don’t need an entire new squad. Many of these players will rightly be given the opportunity under a new regime. I also believe many won’t and that’s part of Rangnick’s job to give the new manager a head start. If they can’t be coached they will move on. Again this is nothing new.

The whole thread is pointless

You’re literally dodging what I’ve asked you. Can you answer as it’s the only point I’m making whilst you’re replying with things that are by the by. As I said previously: the issue isn’t with those on fair wages and moving those players on shouldn’t be a problem. We have a host of top-earners whose wage won’t be matched elsewhere; if they aren’t part of the managers plans, but don’t wish to leave, what happens?

 

[Green_Red]

For me it boils down to this, if you as a manager (anywhere) reward bad behaviour then you have to accept that bad behaviour becomes engrained in the culture that you are allowing to evolve. If you want people to perform they need to understand that any failure to meet the set standards will result in being reprimanded either through demotion or expulsion. When Ole allowed Pogba back into the team after all the bullshit from his agent he set the standard for the rest of the squad. Leaks to the media? Don’t worry about it you’ll still start under me. Tired? Don’t worry, take some time off, go on holiday. We lost again? That’s ok you tried your best…. That’s your culture your breeding. Look at Arsenal and Aubameyang. Arteta did exactly what was required, strip the captaincy and ship out your best player. Looks like the right decision because since then they’ve been a lot better, not perfect but better. Ferguson did that well too, as soon as you weren’t pulling in the direction they were gone. That is how you set standards. We really shouldn't expect our players to do anything but meet the standards that have been set. You could argue the club starting setting the wrong standards when they wouldn't allow Mourinho to sell Martial, or when they allowed Pogba to win in the battle he had with Mourinho.

 

[Revaulx]

It’s all set up for a clear out and the timing is perfect

Yet you still have posters arguing black is white.

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that.

Set for a clear out certainly, and yes the timing couldn’t be better. However, there’s still time for the club to give new contracts to at least some of those whose contracts have expired. The ghost of Ed Woodward might still be hovering around.

Also most of the players likely (as long as the above doesn’t happen) to be leaving aren’t core members of the squad which is currently underperforming from game to game.

I know it’s annoying that so many posters look at everything from the most negative view possible, but a degree of scepticism is understandable.

 

[SuperiorXI]

As much as us fans hate it, the simple fact is these are professional footballers and the aim of the game for a lot of them is to make as much money as they can before their careers are over. Not all players strive for glory to the required degree this club is begging for right now, those players are hard to come by where they have the talent and hard work to make it.

 

[Oranges038]

I know he looks a bit over weight but Shaw is hardly an elephant.

 

[Isotope]

I wrote something about this the other day and decided to delete it in the end, but the post below brought the thoughts to the fore again:



It’s a very real problem for us going forward no matter who the manager is.

It’s all well and good talking about clear outs and such, but what can actually be done with this squad and the plethora of players on wages few others will even consider if they refuse to leave?

Mentioned on other post. Sell or terminate contract of players showing bad attitude. No fecking excuse!! Don't reward lazy ass players or players showing no hunger with bigger contract or even extending them.

We need to set precedent for incoming players (either from academy or transfer in). Playing for Manchester United is all about winning and maintain high-standard!! Otherwise, young player like Elanga would be contaminated. Play hard, get good wage and long term contract, then he look around and then see what he can get away with.

 

[AndySmith1990]

No doubt one of the issues that has led to this lazy and entitled culture is the ridiculous amounts of money we throw at players. I do wonder why we do it. Are we that insecure as a club that we have to pay more than any other club to ensure players choose us, or don't leave us for someone else? When we have shite like Martial and Rashford earning as much as star players from Liverpool and City you know something is seriously wrong. Start offering sensible wages relative to talent and performance, and if they choose to go elsewhere, feck 'em, we can sell and then find other players who aren't only interested in riding the United gravy train.

 

[R'hllor]

Drop them into reserves, wait them to become free agents if they dont wanna leave, sign some hungry young players/free agents on low wages, we dont need to spend billion on wages to be below 4th.

Edit: In our case, benching them wont solve shit, they will moan behind , start stinking around dressing room, if they dont wanna leave, reserves is only solution, so feck them.

 

[DWelbz19]

I remember Pep letting like 8 players leave on a free the end of the season after he joined. We need to do the same here with a lot of these spoofers

 

[Skills]

Mentioned on other post. Sell or terminate contract of players showing bad attitude. No fecking excuse!! Don't reward lazy ass players or players showing no hunger with bigger contract or even extending them.

We need to set precedent for incoming players. Playing for Manchester United is all about winning and maintain high-standard!!

But it isn't though. The players you're complaining about are more successful in their career prior to joining United, after leaving United and many of them in their international careers.

Their time at United is a bit of a dirty stain on many of their fairly successful careers.

 

[R'hllor]

I remember Pep letting like 8 players leave on a free the end of the season after he joined. We need to do the same here with a lot of these spoofers

I can bet that Kolarov would still be here if he was United player, 100% sure of it.

 

[Isotope]

But it isn't though. The players you're complaining about are more successful in their career prior to joining United, after leaving United and many of them in their international careers.

Their time at United is a bit of a dirty stain on many of their fairly successful careers.

Then get players who aren't that successful prior to join United. Also winning and United should be the mantra.

 

[DWelbz19]

I can bet that Kolarov would still be here if he was United player, 100% sure of it.

And probably Sagna and Clichy. God, they had quite a few shite players at that point, didn’t they?

 

[R'hllor]

And probably Sagna and Clichy. God, they had quite a few shite players at that point, didn’t they?

Yea, hell they even moved so fast from Nastasic after his great first season, second season was covered by injuries, half of 3rd and he was gone already.

 

[Tyrion]

I wrote something about this the other day and decided to delete it in the end, but the post below brought the thoughts to the fore again:



It’s a very real problem for us going forward no matter who the manager is.

It’s all well and good talking about clear outs and such, but what can actually be done with this squad and the plethora of players on wages few others will even consider if they refuse to leave?

Every side has this problem. It isn't unique to us so it won't be that big of an issue. Sell the worst performers and improve the hardest working. Repeat until done.

 

[TheRedDevil2019]

Turn contracts into a base salary with performance related bonuses.

A base salary of 50 grand (not 300k) leading to 100k/200k+ perks, with wins, goals etc. Player power will soon diminish then, when they see throwing paddy's and tantrums will cost them a cool 100k minimum.

 

[Tincanalley]

That’s very true. But the question is who is going through a lull and who simply not good enough or past.
Going though a lull has relatively young and has shown signs in the past of being capable:
Rashford, Shaw, Donny (on loan)

Not good enough, or too old, or not worth the effort .
AWB, Maguire, Matic , Mata , Pogba (consistency and input not worth the drama ),

If it was my choice I’d have Matic, Mata and Maguire over the others mentioned any day of the week. Manday especially, Mystified Most Maybe Miss the Magic of these Magnificent Men.

 

[hobbers]

Once the manager, presumably eth, gets players like Rashford, Maguire, AWB, Pogba and Matic firing on all cylinders again, things will look up. Sometimes players go through lulls.

Only one of these players has any sort of future at United.

 

[BlueHaze]

Once the manager, presumably eth, gets players like Rashford, Maguire, AWB, Pogba and Matic firing on all cylinders again, things will look up. Sometimes players go through lulls.

Pogba will be gone and Matic is finished why even bother with him we need young quality players in that midfield not slow finished ones like Matic. As for Maguire I doubt even ETH could bring any good out of him.

 

[UnitedDevils]

Moyes was outed because he'd taken a team who'd cruised the league down to 7th. Just in case you'd forgotten.

I can't forget the speech of SAF on his final home game when he mentioned how we needed to be patient and support the new manager, David Moyes, like he had been supported. I can't help imagine/visualize what could have happened if SAF's trust in DM's managerial ability was allowed to come to the fore at least one season longer. I guess the downfall of DM was the fact that he hadn't won anything of note and that it was difficult for him to stamp his authority or gain the respect of the players the way they respected SAF. It is difficult to gauge the "what if" scenario here. But, SAF's words in that farewell speech still reverberate in my mind...

 

[Plant0x84]

Players that just can’t be bothered. It’s an absolute red herring in my book. We have had a hierarchy that simply hasn’t been fit for purpose, a EVC who was clueless, footballing decisions taken based on financial metrics, and flip flopped between managers with differing styles, philosophies and methods who between them have amassed a squad of individuals who were bought to suit different tactics and don’t have a team identity, a clear style of play or a common quality. They also don’t seem to have a high enough level of basic fitness. We struggle because we are not good enough, not because we don’t try. It started 9 years ago at the top, and has slowly filtered through the club. As an organisation we simply aren’t good enough, and have been left standing by many of the clubs around us.

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

Name an equivalency to what we’re in the midst of

Gorillas in the midst?

 

[Tincanalley]

The Elephant, singular? I don’t think you can have a purge of one. A flock? A crowd? Or to translate to deadwood, maybe a stack?

 

[bond19821982]

Bit of an exaggeration .

Pogba, Mata, Cavani, Lingard, Jones, Bailly will leave. Ronaldo too if we don't get CL.

Martial is the only one who won't give a feck if he doesn't play. Going by his push to join Sevilla, he was interested to actually get on the game. So the same thing could happen again in summer.

So this lack of effort narrative from some players won't exist from this summer. I know people would be keen to blame Rashford but his issue is not a lack of effort rather he just lacks the mentality or talent to succeed in a top team. I also don't agree that Rashford won't put the effort. He is a United through and through and players who came through out academy suddenly won't became lazy. They may lack the talent to succeed but definitely won't be lacking the effort.

 

[steffyr2]

Mentioned on other post. Sell or terminate contract of players showing bad attitude. No fecking excuse!! Don't reward lazy ass players or players showing no hunger with bigger contract or even extending them.

We need to set precedent for incoming players (either from academy or transfer in). Playing for Manchester United is all about winning and maintain high-standard!! Otherwise, young player like Elanga would be contaminated. Play hard, get good wage and long term contract, then he look around and then see what he can get away with.

"Terminate contract" sounds great, but how do you do that?

 

[Moriarty]

Once the manager, presumably eth, gets players like Rashford, Maguire, AWB, Pogba and Matic firing on all cylinders again, things will look up. Sometimes players go through lulls.

Or he might walk in with a handful of P-45s and tell them all to sod off.

 

[Moriarty]

"Terminate contract" sounds great, but how do you do that?

If there's no cause to terminate, you sign a big fat fecking cheque.

 

[Banana Republic]

………I know people would be keen to blame Rashford but his issue is not a lack of effort rather he just lacks the mentality or talent to succeed in a top team. I also don't agree that Rashford won't put the effort. He is a United through and through and players who came through out academy suddenly won't became lazy. They may lack the talent to succeed but definitely won't be lacking the effort.

Errr
Have you been watching Utd over the last couple of years, especially Rashford’s appearances this season?
He’s almost redefining the meaning of “lack of effort” and taking it to a whole new level.

People need to get over this rather selective obsession with certain Academy players.
Welbeck, Macheda, Cleverley, Januzaj, Pereira, Lingard, McTominey etc, all came through the Academy, but I don’t remember many defending their place in our first team because they were considered undroppable or unsellable products of the Academy.
If Rashford is not good enough and not willing to fight for the team, to the best of his ability, who cares if he’s a home grown academy product?
The academy release up to a dozen players a year, who aren’t going to make the grade. It shouldn’t be any different if they make it to the first team squad.

.

 

[Barnslig]

"There is a reason United have been going through managers so quickly. The players know who holds the power."

I hate it when people say this sort of thing, as it's been about 8-9 years since Fergie, and barely any players have played that whole time scale.

It's different players! Unless you think about a turnover of 100 players all think the same way?

I mean this has been increasing year on year since Fergie. This happens over time, when players keep getting away with shit, wether it's things in the public eye, or behind closed doors. They slowly but surely realise they aren't to be blamed for anything, and it festers (as in effort on the pitch amongst other things - why would you run yourself into the ground when it makes no difference to how people are treating you). It's like if you come into a new job, and the employee group is toxic as feck, it doesn't matter what your individual thoughts and feelings on that is, the group is still toxic.

I doubt the players have sat down and discussed taking over the power, I think it's come from players not receiving any backlash or punishment where it hurts (their paycheck) basically going unchecked for so long they have fully realised they are infallible and that's why you see the players whinging to the media about actually having to run, or put in a shift in training.

 

[Grande]

The problem(s) with United have never really been seen at any other team, certainly not all at once. It’s unprecedented and therefore difficult to really give an expected recovery time.

Whilst player power appears to be a issue but it’s not the main problem. If it was such a problem it wouldn’t be exclusive to United.

Wages, agent fees, bonuses. This is really your own doing. As hard as it is to reduce these figures, it is possible. United and In particular clueless Ed, really failed to curb the upward trend and it spiraled out of control. He mitigated some of it with some good sponsorship deals but this will take years to clear. All prospective new players will now know they can milk this cash cow for everything it’s got.

Pride and Respect. Your players clearly lack this. Countless times you’ve left the field after a poor performance and it’s fallen on De Gea and not the captain to apologize. This is disgusting. They don’t care and their ego completely blinds them to how you all feel.

Playing ability level and varying playing styles is another issue on top of the pride and respect. You definitely aren’t scouting these players well enough. You lack chemistry and players that can change a game.

It’s intereting getting perspectives from the outside, I thank you for that. You have a good point about wage structure is not unique to United, so it must be something more. The point about changes in coaching styles is also a clear factor, though a club like Chelsea has shown that it is not the be all end all.

I find it intriguing that us who view from the terraces (both United fans and others like you) talk about pride, application, laziness etc, while three experienced football men in a row (notice I didn’t say managers), Mourinho, Solskjær and Rangnik, have been in the locker room and all said it is about confidence. That is, the opposite of entitlement.

In this, I trust them more than us TV viewers. In fact, much more. They all have a tremendous amount of experience with how a locker room, training ground and pitch effort is connected, and they have made the same diagnosis from watching close up, while we watch a player make an off the ball run or not and infer motivation and psychology without being psychologists or even knowing the players.

I’d rather turn it around: Given it is obviously not an excess of comfort, self-content and satisfaction, but rather lack of confidence and self-efficacy - what can have effected that, and which is typical of Man United? Wages wouldn’t lead to that, but what would, is the combination of much attention and negative appraisals. United do have more press, nationally and internationally, than any club in England and almost any club in the world. Which we as fans love. And United players has had more criticism than most - in quantum at the very least. If you look at the players who have receives the most attention+criticism at United, you see find players like Maguire, Rashford, Shaw, Wan-Bissaka, Sancho and Ronaldo. Most of them English, some of them lost two finals in two months on penalty kicks recently. All playing way below their highest standard.

Some might say Solskjærs biggest positive effect was averting the negative attention of a big part of the fan base and a big part of the punditry (aka The Old Guard), and that this explains a few of his successes (wild start, Paris Fairytale, best single season since Fergie).

So what should we as fans learn from that?

 

[Barnslig]

You’re literally dodging what I’ve asked you. Can you answer as it’s the only point I’m making whilst you’re replying with things that are by the by. As I said previously: the issue isn’t with those on fair wages and moving those players on shouldn’t be a problem. We have a host of top-earners whose wage won’t be matched elsewhere; if they aren’t part of the managers plans, but don’t wish to leave, what happens?

I feel like you're being purposefully difficult here, there's only a few options available, and I am sure you are aware of those as well; let the player rot in the reserves or pay them out of their contract. It's high time United put United first, and if any player has a problem with it, they can leave (read: rot in the reserves until they chose to leave/contract runs out). It feels like United are the only "top" club in the world tiptoeing around players feelings and emotions, while everyone else seems ruthless.

While I understand player power isn't unique to United, I feel like we're definitely in a unique situation as we're the only club that willingly, actively and repeatedly encourage our players to hold us to ransom. We never learn.

 

[croadyman]

About 20 odd years ago Chelsea signed Winston Bogarde on a free transfer.

After a season or so he found himself sitting on the bench most of the time. He was asked whether he wanted to move as he was in his twilight years and not getting game time. He replied by saying “ Why would I want to move? I’m being paid £50k a week and no other club in the world will pay me that!”

I get the impression that a lot of our squad have a similar stance to him.

Yeah plenty of Bogardes in this squad

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

You can never completely clear out a squad like the fans say. And for good reason and for the best. 10 senior players leaving would be a big clear out. You have to use some of the players you have. Also you can buy in loads of stars from foreign leagues and end up like Chelsea with Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech and Havertz, good players but taking a while to fit in. People are already on Sancho’s back for this season. Imagine 10 Sanchos being bought at once to replace the current squad.

 

[Barnslig]

You can never completely clear out a squad like the fans say. And for good reason and for the best. 10 senior players leaving would be a big clear out. You have to use some of the players you have. Also you can buy in loads of stars from foreign leagues and end up like Chelsea with Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech and Havertz, good players but taking a while to fit in. People are already on Sancho’s back for this season. Imagine 10 Sanchos being bought at once to replace the current squad.

I don't think anyone expects us to get rid of 100% of our first team in one summer, but to get rid of every player that has played more than 5 games for United over the last few years, in the next few summers should be very doable, either by forcing them out or paying them out. It's going to be a painful lesson for the moneymen at United, like someone mentioned earlier at United we should classify players as liabilities and not assets.

 

[Zlatattack]

A purge won't be too hard.

Mata, Pogba, Cavani and Lingard are out this summer.

Jones, Matic, Shaw, Matic, Fred, Dalot and Rashford could go next summer if we don't renew.

Martial and Donny both likely want out anyway and Ronaldo must be eager to leave too.

I'm not saying we don't let them all leave on frees, but if we want a big clear out - just buy not renewing we could have most of the squad gone in 3 summers.