Can you develop box to box midfielders into the modern full back?

Skills

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I think the old joke was that full backs were failed CBs or Wingers. There might have been a degree of truth to it, but increasingly there is a bigger crossover between midfield and full backs.

The way teams defend now, they're forcing the ball out from the middle of the pitch into the wide areas. And full backs end up with a lot of the ball - so full backs who have the composure, vision and timing of a midfielder become quite valuable. The ability to switch play, or dictate the pace of the game from out wide is a very valuable trait rather than just gunning for the touchline to cross a ball in.

I reckon it's quite easy to teach a good midfielder who can pass the ball how to cross. It's probably also easier for young midfielders to 'learn' the game there. Probably the hardest part of a CMs game is the 360 degree awareness - which you don't have to worry about anywhere near as much from outwide.
 
Trent is probably the best example of this, you do have to play a certain system for it to work mind.
 
It's a pretty big transition to get these guys to start playing with more knowledge of defensive positioning against wingers (particularly when defending off the ball), have limited touches and being more off the ball players of the team. I think the natural tendency of a box-to-box midfielder is to want to touch the ball, they may not be used to standing there isolated just to create width.

But there are also some similarities so I see what you're saying. I think a guy like Dani Alves could have easily been a top class midfielder.
 
I dont think there is any single rule that's fits everyone, if they have right attributes like pace, defensively decent and can cross the ball then yes, with good amount of games they might learn how to play as FB.

Not that its important but I used to convert Herrera and few other box to box midfielders into FBs in my old FM saves :D

If we have to pick one player from this squad then I think McTominay can be that player. He has pace, insane work rate and decent crosser of the ball.
 
I don’t think any one position suits another necessarily, or one position makes the transition to another more simple.

It just comes back to the individual players ability and whether his/her attributes will help make the transition.

A bit like how Matic can be trusted at CB when the circumstances call for it and a player like Fred of Pogba would never be trusted there.
 
That does pose an interesting question, are we now at the point where the most important attribute we're looking for from our fullbacks is ball retention ability?
I suppose it all depends on the system you're trying to play but I still prefer a traditional fullback like AWB who may be poor on the ball but is excellent in 1v1 situations and passable getting forward.
TAA gives you fantastic quality on the ball but we've seen him get absolutely murdered by quality left wing players. I'd prefer someone balanced like Robertson. So I'd probably stick with the converted CBs or wingers than CMs.
 
There is no answer to that question, it depends on the player, his physical, tactical and technical abilities. In theory you can develop any player into playing an other position if he fits it.
 
JPRouve said:
There is no answer to that question, it depends on the player, his physical, tactical and technical abilities. In theory you can develop any player into playing an other position if he fits it.
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Bryan Robson and Keane were brilliant exponents of it. Keane in particular developed from being further forward to an all round CM after being encouraged by Robson to do more in the first 3rd of the pitch while contributing goals at the other end.

Would you say Kante is/was a player that fits this profile? Not saying we should go for him, that ship has sailed.
 
Inigo Montoya said:
Bryan Robson and Keane were brilliant exponents of it. Keane in particular developed from being further forward to an all round CM after being encouraged by Robson to do more in the first 3rd of the pitch while contributing goals at the other end.

Would you say Kante is/was a player that fits this profile? Not saying we should go for him, that ship has sailed.
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Kanté is a good shout, I wouldn't be surprised if he had been a top level fullback and played at a high level earlier. But for me the best examples are Blanc and Makélélé, Blanc was a world class prospect as an attacking midfielder but his coaches thought that he would actually be a world class sweeper at professional level even though Blanc was playing at a high level earlier in his career in his initial attacking role. Makélélé was a winger and a decent one but was moved to center midfield and become a world class DM.

The problem at youth level is that if you are an elite technician or athlete, you will most likely make it until U18-U19 as an attacking player but professional players are these superior technicians and athletes so in order to succeed you also need to find the role that maximizes your qualities. People would be surprised if they actually saw PL level players against the average man, they are all technically way better than us and they are also way faster and more powerful.
 
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I agree with much of what you say but I think it is the other way around. Good fullbacks find it easier to play in midfield than vice versa because one of the most important traits for a full back to have is good close control while running at pace. Not many midfielders have that. So naturally you might notice that a lot more fullbacks have played in midfield than midfielders who have played in fullback, and its more natural for wingers to convert to fullback because they have the close control.
 
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I suppose Darren Fletcher could have been turned into an alright full back if we had better CMs at the time. Can't think of too many others off the top of my head. The ability to whip in a great cross is not something that every player seems to have in their locker, for example TAA and Robertson are both great at it, whereas (in my opinion anyway) Shaw and AWB are unfortunately garbage at crossing. From our squad Bruno seems to be the best at this, and McTominay seems alright at it as the poster above said but I'm not sure he's quick enough to provide the overlapping runs or get back as well as Shaw and AWB do. Unfortunately it just seems like we have players who excel at only parts of the roles of a modern full back.
 
Lahm was able to play in midfield (very well I think), but I'm not sure this could be replicated by every full back. Conversely, City have won the league playing 2 midfielders at LB (Delph, Zinchenko), which tucked into midfield, allowing KDB and Silva to roam further up field. Of course Liverpool dictate a lot of play from their FB positions.

Ultimately depends on your system of play and the talent available to you.
 
Paul Breitner is a great example of it but it can’t be a general rule which fits all full backs.

Depends on your ability to receive the ball, passing range and intelligence - a whole host of factors not just the ‘engine’ to get up and down.

I would say most full backs can’t play midfield and I still am not fully convinced Trent can do it - just because he is a good passer from out wide, no guarantee he will be a top class box to box midfielder as the levels expected from you in possession is a different kettle of fish.

If the question is can a proven box to box midfield player at a high level play at full back, then yes I would agree that can be done as it is easier to play full back than it is to play midfield.

I thought Lahm was passable as a mid but not entirely convinced that he was outstanding in playing CM or CDM (which suited him better). Alaba overrated at it.
 
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I always considered myself a full back but every team I ever played for I got stuck in centre midfield, so I do have personal experience of this!

I think it's a work rate thing more than anything else - if you're a good footballer but you're lacking a bit of speed or skill then you can't really play full back. If you're a decent footballer but you've got speed and skill then you can. Some full backs (ahem, Evra) can't even tackle but still do well because they're so positive and hard working but he would have been an utter disaster in midfield.

This will sound stupid but any midfielder that can play a one two can do well at full back - but there are so many midfielders these days that like to hold on to the ball and play it forward instead of looking to pass and move. Not sure why, modern training methodologies maybe.
 
Javier Zanetti was brilliant at both. But as has been said; there is no rule.
 
Depends on their skill-sets, physical abilities and system.

B2B easily fits into FB though since normally B2Bs are energetic, combative, good stamina, good defensively, and fine attacking abilities. Those that have pace are advantage and more likely while those without pace will need to be more discipline and/or have good sense of positioning.

Delph, Fletcher and Keane worked (although not really that natural when they played there to be honest).

Possible B2B --> FBs (may need some time to successfully transition into the new role)
= Fred, Kante, Herrera, Robson, Matuidi, Wilshere, Gerrard, ???
 
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:D What is this modern Full back by the way?

The Robertson and Alex-Arnold kind?
Before them, there are plenty of similar FBs that are far better than them who can defend better too.

It's nothing new, nothing modern about it.
 
JPRouve said:
Kanté is a good shout, I wouldn't be surprised if he had been a top level fullback and played at a high level earlier. But for me the best examples are Blanc and Makélélé, Blanc was a world class prospect as an attacking midfielder but his coaches thought that he would actually be a world class sweeper at professional level even though Blanc was playing at a high level earlier in his career in his initial attacking role. Makélélé was a winger and a decent one but was moved to center midfield and become a world class DM.

The problem at youth level is that if you are an elite technician or athlete, you will most likely make it until U18-U19 as an attacking player but professional players are these superior technicians and athletes so in order to succeed you also need to find the role that maximizes your qualities. People would be surprised if they actually saw PL level players against the average man, they are all technically way better than us and they are also way faster and more powerful.
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Which is why I have a little bit of a snigger at the accusation that players like Lingard are crap etc. They are in a different league figuratively and realistically entirely!
 
JPRouve said:
Kanté is a good shout, I wouldn't be surprised if he had been a top level fullback and played at a high level earlier. But for me the best examples are Blanc and Makélélé, Blanc was a world class prospect as an attacking midfielder but his coaches thought that he would actually be a world class sweeper at professional level even though Blanc was playing at a high level earlier in his career in his initial attacking role. Makélélé was a winger and a decent one but was moved to center midfield and become a world class DM.

The problem at youth level is that if you are an elite technician or athlete, you will most likely make it until U18-U19 as an attacking player but professional players are these superior technicians and athletes so in order to succeed you also need to find the role that maximizes your qualities. People would be surprised if they actually saw PL level players against the average man, they are all technically way better than us and they are also way faster and more powerful.
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Interesting, I never knew that. Can you explain which manager made the transition for him and why exactly? Seeing as how Makelele is almost the progenitor of the Ball winning DM type of players, it would be interesting to know why the guy who shifted him from the wing into a CM, thought he could do a job there. Especially considering he was not necessarily as physical as most CMs in the late 90s/ early 00s used to be.
 
Patchbeard said:
From our squad Bruno seems to be the best at this, and McTominay seems alright at it as the poster above said but I'm not sure he's quick enough to provide the overlapping runs or get back as well as Shaw and AWB do.
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Good catch.

Bruno seems fit and natural to play B2B, would play fine as modern FB. Got all the skill-sets and physicality.

I don't think McT fit FB at all, too slow to get back but maybe better and suited in a system where the FBs play like Side-midfielders (SM) or inverted FBs.
 
Web of Bissaka said:
Say what?
Wow. Same with Schweinsteiger.

Both of them just doesn't fit playing on the wing. Thankfully, they found decent coaches early in their career that understand where their best positions are.
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I remember Schweinsteiger looking pretty nifty on the wing as a youngster for Germany at WC 2006, but no idea when he was transitioned permanently to CM. Was a bit like Beckham on the wing in that he wasn't rapid but was tenacious and had great technique for crossing.
 
King7Eric said:
Interesting, I never knew that. Can you explain which manager made the transition for him and why exactly? Seeing as how Makelele is almost the progenitor of the Ball winning DM type of players, it would be interesting to know why the guy who shifted him from the wing into a CM, thought he could do a job there. Especially considering he was not necessarily as physical as most CMs in the late 90s/ early 00s used to be.
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Web of Bissaka said:
Say what?
Wow. Same with Schweinsteiger.

Both of them just doesn't fit playing on the wing. Thankfully, they found decent coaches early in their career that understand where their best positions are.
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At Nantes he was a winger/wide midfielder but was really moved to the role most people know him for at Celta Vigo. In the following video you can see how their 442 diamond worked, he was also used as a pure winger in a flat 442, you can also see Karembeu used as a fullback which fits with this thread.



And here you have a summary of his career.
 
Kimmich and Alaba have done this already, right. I'm sure Alaba used and always wanted to play CM.
 
JPRouve said:
At Nantes he was a winger/wide midfielder but was really moved to the role most people know him for at Celta Vigo. In the following video you can see how their 442 diamond worked, he was also used as a pure winger in a flat 442, you can also see Karembeu used as a fullback which fits with this thread.



And here you have a summary of his career.
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Cheers. Thanks :)
 
Cheers @JPRouve @Patchbeard

Admittedly I never seen Makelele on the wing and seen only few games winger Schweini. Never impressed with Scheweini on the wings, nothing special, just a good player and to my eyes, it felt off seeing him that player playing there since it just doesn't fit but he never play bad there.

I think what made both of them good and chosen playing on the wings earlier days are their football intelligence, agility, movements and good on-ball abilities and techniques. Wingers in those days are also more of a side-midfielders than forwards of today. And Side-midfielders has to be good at team-play, support and off-the ball movements.
 
Lash said:
Trent is probably the best example of this, you do have to play a certain system for it to work mind.
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I think Kimmich is another example. Milner at Liverpool also covers both positions interchangeably.

Delph and Zinchenko were also Guardiola's choice to deputise at LB when Mendy has been out injured.
 
Skills said:
I think Kimmich is another example. Milner at Liverpool also covers both positions interchangeably.

Delph and Zinchenko were also Guardiola's choice to deputise at LB when Mendy has been out injured.
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yeah, very true actually. Pep's system really gives lots of examples to that. The fact that Dani Alves is more than comfortable playing in mid as well.
 
It think Fred would make a very good Marcelo copy at leftback, when I look at their qualities it quite similar,the low centre of gravity, pace,dribbling skills and stamina even the lack of positional awareness,Ole wouldn't switch him over though
 
Lash said:
Trent is probably the best example of this, you do have to play a certain system for it to work mind.
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Kimmich, surely? Although he’s now back in midfield.
 
Trex said:
It think Fred would make a very good Marcelo copy at leftback, when I look at their qualities it quite similar,the low centre of gravity, pace,dribbling skills and stamina even the lack of positional awareness,Ole wouldn't switch him over though
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This is what would terrify me about Fred at left-back.
 
Weirdly enough, the fullback-midfielder convergence is not a state-of-the-art and original phenomenon that is pioneered by contemporary managers and players.

In the pyramid (thought of as the quintessential stable formation in the early days of organised football), your side half-backs/wing-halves would typically have the attacking remit of box-to-box/central midfielders and the defensive remit of modern fullbacks in terms of marking opposition inside/outside forwards. The 1930 World Cup winning team is a decent example of the concept with José Andrade and Álvaro Gestido playing as wing-halves:

EZ.jpg

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* From this you also got the evolution of the modern 4-3-3 in the 1930s as the halfbacks/wing-halves became fullbacks, fullbacks became central defenders, and inside forwards became #10/8 midfielders (or mezzalas) — all with the intent of making the team more defensively secure. And that innovation played a big role in the World Cup success of the Italian national team from the period.

With regard to developing box-to-box midfielders into fullbacks, it's a really open-ended speculation as the success rates would obviously be contingent on individual players and their specific qualities/roles — I guess some of them could be adapted if they have the requisite positional/tactical nous and technical skillset — as at least at surface level, they have a few important qualities in common: stamina, competence in the build-up stage in possession, general mobility on the pitch and tackling/marking ability.

For what it's worth, you had a ton of fullback-midfielder crossovers throughout the years (mostly from fullback to midfield than vice versa as the former was presumably the more unglamorous role). Some of them have been mentioned already and there are plenty of others, so there are ample precedents: from noteworthy examples like Briegel, Brehme, Bonhof, Netto, Júnior — who acquitted themselves quite well in both capacities, to temporary fixes like Davids at Juventus or Milner at Liverpool, and of course the likes of Alves, Kimmich, Fabinho, Guerreiro in recent years.
 
Trex said:
It think Fred would make a very good Marcelo copy at leftback, when I look at their qualities it quite similar,the low centre of gravity, pace,dribbling skills and stamina even the lack of positional awareness,Ole wouldn't switch him over though
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Poor attacking input though.

Marcelo is consistently good when attacking and produce good things, just that he's bad on the other side. Fred is better defensively.
 
Can Fred or McTominay be backup fullbacks?

Fred is one of the worst players I've seen at stopping his man run past him. As a fullback, he'd be able to make great use of his energy but I think he'd also let in every single cross. So, no.

McTominay would be better at stopping crosses, but I wouldn't fancy him being able to track a tricky winger. His centre of gravity is too high. So, probably also no. But maybe he could be able to do an O'Shea type of job if given time. I don't think his defensive awareness is anywhere near good enough at the moment, though.
 
If we’re talking about all-time greats, both Neeskens and Breitner started out as fullbacks before becoming midfielders. Junior, Zanetti, Lahm are also good examples of this... yet there’s actually way less examples of central midfielders switching to fullbacks full-time.

I guess it has a lot to do with the historical importance of the role? Usually midfielders were more influential than fullbacks, so if a world-class fullback could perform as a world-class midfielder, he got moved to midfield, but not the other way round.

Pep with his false fullbacks seem to have tilted that balance a bit – Kimmich, Zinchenko, Delph all went from central roles to wide ones. I can’t think of many more examples of this though.
 
Trex said:
It think Fred would make a very good Marcelo copy at leftback, when I look at their qualities it quite similar,the low centre of gravity, pace,dribbling skills and stamina even the lack of positional awareness,Ole wouldn't switch him over though
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I always felt that Fred was not a fast player, but an energetic one (which is usually enough when you play centrally, but not on the wing). But then I saw an article on United‘s website stating that he has set the speed record in our squad in 2019/20 with 37 km/h sprint (beating the likes of Rashford and James). Weird.
 
We've been doing that with Arnau Puigmal (our u23 Spanish youngster), and we do that with an even younger youth player in Finley Mcallister (who I highly rate).
 
Web of Bissaka said:
Poor attacking input though.

Marcelo is consistently good when attacking and produce good things, just that he's bad on the other side. Fred is better defensively.
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I'll bet he'll produce more quality from left back than Shaw, you've seen his crosses from set pieces plus his dribbling and energy we'll carry us up pitch more often
harms said:
I always felt that Fred was not a fast player, but an energetic one (which is usually enough when you play centrally, but not on the wing). But then I saw an article on United‘s website stating that he has set the speed record in our squad in 2019/20 with 37 km/h sprint (beating the likes of Rashford and James). Weird.
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Playing centrally hides that, observe his recovery runs while opponents counter attack
freeurmind said:
This is what would terrify me about Fred at left-back.
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Yah it's the big drawback if you play Fred there
 
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