China infiltrated USA's top companies.

[Cal?]

Whatever they did, is still incomparable to what the USA and her cronies does. Unless you believe everything they say about China in the west propaganda.

This is the typical Chinese argument for everything. So and so are just as bad (or worse), therefore whatever we do is justifiable.

Half the world's mess is created by the US intervention in the past. Afghanistan, War or terror, Iran, Saudi Arabia indirectly backing terrorism, Korean War, Vietnam war, Iraq, and that's only the one that got exposed. China is building her own projection of power, but she never hides behind democracy and bullshits like the west used to.

We'll give you road, you give us your gas.

Plain simple.

On the other hand, half the world are not German/Japanese speaking countries only due to US intervention in the past. I'm not saying the US are justified in all their actions (especially in the recent past), but it's not as simple as USA creating all the trouble in the world. The Korean war? I'd say the 10s of millions of S Koreans are very grateful not to be ruled by Little Rocket Man; Iraq I was more than justified.

China doesn't hide behind democracy, just questionable "historical claims" that goes against any international treaties.

 

[Cal?]

As a Pakistani (and therefore neighbour of China), i can say I that China has no interest in destabilising other countries.

I guess your neighbors in India will have a very different view of that...

 

[Zlatattack]

I guess your neighbors in India will have a very different view of that...

Yeah they do. That's like 50% of the reason i said it...lol

it's not very often a Pakistani gets to talk about cordial relationships with neighbours.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah they do. That's like 50% of the reason i said it...lol

it's not very often a Pakistani gets to talk about cordial relationships with neighbours.

Pakistan are just about the only neighboring country that China doesn't have a border dispute with (Russia too, cos might is right?).

Off the top of my head, they have border disputes with: Japan, S Korea, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, Kazakhstan, (Taiwan)

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

This is the typical Chinese argument for everything. So and so are just as bad (or worse), therefore whatever we do is justifiable.

On the other hand, half the world are not German/Japanese speaking countries only due to US intervention in the past. I'm not saying the US are justified in all their actions (especially in the recent past), but it's not as simple as USA creating all the trouble in the world. The Korean war? I'd say the 10s of millions of S Koreans are very grateful not to be ruled by Little Rocket Man; Iraq I was more than justified.

China doesn't hide behind democracy, just questionable "historical claims" that goes against any international treaties.

Uh I agree with what you're saying in general (the terrible argument of 'well the US/West does it too! is really boring) but this is just not true.

Soviet Union/British Empire would have defeated Nazi Germany without US assistance. It's then very arguable that communism would have spread to Western Europe though (aside from the UK) because without the US forces its very difficult to imagine how Britain would have opened the Western front, so potentially the Soviets would have been the ones liberating France etc.

Japanese is more arguable but still a stretch to be honest, again the Soviet Union was pushing Japan back by the end of the war and with a German surrender the British Empire would have been able to defeat Japan anyway as all of its resources would have been focused on this front. The only reason Japan was able to have so much success early on was because so much of Britain's resources were focused on preventing a German invasion, and whilst it's possible they could have been successful with a 'we're liberating you from the imperialists' message which potentially may have united Asia, instead they were way more oppressive than Britain to the people they occupied, so..

Basically, it's very much an American 'we saved the world' fantasy of history that without them everybody would have inevitably fallen to the fascist powers. Still, their involvement in these conflicts hastened the victory (stopping millions more from dying, liberated concentration camps etc) and it's definitely something people should be thankful for. That and the subsequent marshall plan helped Europe recover and get back on its feet when the alternative could have been many more years of misery and depression, so yes there are moments of US history to be proud of. Saying all this though, the US didn't join wars or lend aid out of charity, they demanded their pound of flesh and off the back of both world wars became an incredibly wealthy superpower.

 

[Sky1981]

This is the typical Chinese argument for everything. So and so are just as bad (or worse), therefore whatever we do is justifiable.

On the other hand, half the world are not German/Japanese speaking countries only due to US intervention in the past. I'm not saying the US are justified in all their actions (especially in the recent past), but it's not as simple as USA creating all the trouble in the world. The Korean war? I'd say the 10s of millions of S Koreans are very grateful not to be ruled by Little Rocket Man; Iraq I was more than justified.

China doesn't hide behind democracy, just questionable "historical claims" that goes against any international treaties.

For what it worth, american was very noble at world war 2. Admirable, they have no direct gain ( unless they foreseen 25 years ahead ) by joining the war, and they really are the big brother at that time, along with Marshall plan during the big crisis.

But they live long enough to become the villain. With the fall of Soviet it's all about maximising their self interest.

Again china wasnt perfect, but they never claim they are. I just didnt see them as the evil of asia the us painted them at the moment.

The us owes half the world, and china happens to own alot of the us bonds, and dollars, the big brother sees it as a thread and created all sorts of trouble to curb china.

An unjust trade war? Against all the wto rule book? Government intervention on huawei? They're talking about sanction on ughur issue? Which is a minor internal problem in the grand scheme of things while turning a blind eye on israel, syria, saudi arabia, iraq.

The chinese are bidding their time, the us know they have to do something before its too late. Lets not pretend they fought china with pure honest consious of world policing. It's all about self preservation.

Regarding Tibet , ask any Tibetans they're happier now under china government. There's growth, there's food, entertainment, transportation and all the good stuff.

 

[Cal?]

Uh I agree with what you're saying in general (the terrible argument of 'well the US/West does it too! is really boring) but this is just not true.

Soviet Union/British Empire would have defeated Nazi Germany without US assistance. It's then very arguable that communism would have spread to Western Europe though (aside from the UK) because without the US forces its very difficult to imagine how Britain would have opened the Western front, so potentially the Soviets would have been the ones liberating France etc.

Japanese is more arguable but still a stretch to be honest, again the Soviet Union was pushing Japan back by the end of the war and with a German surrender the British Empire would have been able to defeat Japan anyway as all of its resources would have been focused on this front. The only reason Japan was able to have so much success early on was because so much of Britain's resources were focused on preventing a German invasion, and whilst it's possible they could have been successful with a 'we're liberating you from the imperialists' message which potentially may have united Asia, instead they were way more oppressive than Britain to the people they occupied, so..

Basically, it's very much an American 'we saved the world' fantasy of history that without them everybody would have inevitably fallen to the fascist powers. Still, their involvement in these conflicts hastened the victory (stopping millions more from dying, liberated concentration camps etc) and it's definitely something people should be thankful for. That and the subsequent marshall plan helped Europe recover and get back on its feet when the alternative could have been many more years of misery and depression, so yes there are moments of US history to be proud of. Saying all this though, the US didn't join wars or lend aid out of charity, they demanded their pound of flesh and off the back of both world wars became an incredibly wealthy superpower.

This really isn't the place to discuss alternate world history, I don't agree that the Soviets would have been able to defeat Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan on their own without US involvement.

For what it worth, american was very noble at world war 2. Admirable, they have no direct gain ( unless they foreseen 25 years ahead ) by joining the war, and they really are the big brother at that time, along with Marshall plan during the big crisis.

But they live long enough to become the villain. With the fall of Soviet it's all about maximising their self interest.

Again china wasnt perfect, but they never claim they are. I just didnt see them as the evil of asia the us painted them at the moment.

The us owes half the world, and china happens to own alot of the us bonds, and dollars, the big brother sees it as a thread and created all sorts of trouble to curb china.

An unjust trade war? Against all the wto rule book? Government intervention on huawei? They're talking about sanction on ughur issue? Which is a minor internal problem in the grand scheme of things while turning a blind eye on israel, syria, saudi arabia, iraq.

The chinese are bidding their time, the us know they have to do something before its too late. Lets not pretend they fought china with pure honest consious of world policing. It's all about self preservation.

Regarding Tibet , ask any Tibetans they're happier now under china government. There's growth, there's food, entertainment, transportation and all the good stuff.

They don't? Emperor Xi is never at fault, and living in Hong Kong, I am bombarded by the pro-CCP media daily and they really do think the Xi (and the CCP) are perfect. Like I mentioned, their questionable claim to the S China Sea and the Senkaku Islands are just examples of their new expansionist policy since Xi came into power.

China's rapid rise both economically and militarily has definitely destabilized east Asia. Japan and S Korea have both increased their military spending rapidly to protect themselves.

As for Huawei, it's pretty clear that it's a company with very close ties to the CCP. Why would the PRC Ministry of Foreign Affairs react so strongly before even finding out what the charges are, or even without knowing if Meng traveled to Canada using a Chinese passport or not? It's already been established that she has permanent residence in Canada.

Tibet? All is well if you ignore the genocide that the CCP instigated.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

This really isn't the place to discuss alternate world history, I don't agree that the Soviets would have been able to defeat Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan on their own without US involvement.

It's not, but then you're the one who stated an absolute (half of the world would be speaking Japanese or German if it wasn't for the US) when this is a very arguable perspective on world history.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

For what it worth, american was very noble at world war 2. Admirable, they have no direct gain ( unless they foreseen 25 years ahead ) by joining the war, and they really are the big brother at that time, along with Marshall plan during the big crisis.

But they live long enough to become the villain. With the fall of Soviet it's all about maximising their self interest.

Again china wasnt perfect, but they never claim they are. I just didnt see them as the evil of asia the us painted them at the moment.

The us owes half the world, and china happens to own alot of the us bonds, and dollars, the big brother sees it as a thread and created all sorts of trouble to curb china.

An unjust trade war? Against all the wto rule book? Government intervention on huawei? They're talking about sanction on ughur issue? Which is a minor internal problem in the grand scheme of things while turning a blind eye on israel, syria, saudi arabia, iraq.

The chinese are bidding their time, the us know they have to do something before its too late. Lets not pretend they fought china with pure honest consious of world policing. It's all about self preservation.

Regarding Tibet , ask any Tibetans they're happier now under china government. There's growth, there's food, entertainment, transportation and all the good stuff.

The United States did not join the war. They were attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbour, and subsequently Germany declared war upon them. Beyond that there are plenty of political & economic reasons for why the US joined the war which go beyond merely 'fighting for freedom' or other vague concepts. The Marshall Plan wasn't charity either, it was mainly because the US feared that communism would spread to Western Europe if it was left to its own devices.

Anyway yeah, this isn't the thread to discuss the US during WW2 so I'll leave it there, but the overarching point is that no superpower in history hasn't been aggressive, to gain and maintain that level of power & influence you can't be isolationist or noble in your pursuits. China is no exception to this rule.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Whataboutism doesn’t really work here since Mao is comparable to Stalin in the ‘killing his own subjects’ category and the PRC’s backing directly lead to Pol Pot taking over in Cambodia and the genocide that subsequent took place.

The US is clearly, as it is, the most warlike country in history (21 years at peace in its entire existence, to date). However, if you are making the argument that China has been benign or benevolent in its relation with other neighboring countries, you have to be either a) incredibly ignorant or b) incredibly disingenuous.

 

[Lj82]

Pakistan are just about the only neighboring country that China doesn't have a border dispute with (Russia too, cos might is right?).

Off the top of my head, they have border disputes with: Japan, S Korea, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, Kazakhstan, (Taiwan)

They did have border disputes with Russia. Only solved news less twenty years ago.

 

[Cal?]

They did have border disputes with Russia. Only solved news less twenty years ago.

Yea, when they agreed to cede a lot of land to Russia.

 

[berbatrick]

Pakistan are just about the only neighboring country that China doesn't have a border dispute with (Russia too, cos might is right?).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

 

[Cal?]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

Which was resolved when Russia proved ‘might is right’

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Whataboutism doesn’t really work here since Mao is comparable to Stalin in the ‘killing his own subjects’ category and the PRC’s backing directly lead to Pol Pot taking over in Cambodia and the genocide that subsequent took place.

The US is clearly, as it is, the most warlike country in history (21 years at peace in its entire existence, to date). However, if you are making the argument that China has been benign or benevolent in its relation with other neighboring countries, you have to be either a) incredibly ignorant or b) incredibly disingenuous.

Whataboutism is definitely the worst argument you encounter whenever criticising a nation/culture from outside the West, whether that be China or the UAE.

'Well YEAH they tortured and oppressed people, but what about the US invading everyone HUH?'

 

[Sky1981]

Whataboutism is definitely the worst argument you encounter whenever criticising a nation/culture from outside the West, whether that be China or the UAE.

'Well YEAH they tortured and oppressed people, but what about the US invading everyone HUH?'

Except its the other way around.

But what about china human right abuse? What about taiwan? What about tibet?

It's trump playbook. Go pick on something trivial and repeat it non stop. Kidnap the daughter of huawei while they're at it.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Except its the other way around.

But what about china human right abuse? What about taiwan? What about tibet?

In this very thread you've been countering claims about Chinese aggression with 'well, it isn't as bad as the US'.

It's just not helpful. I think most semi-intelligent people are aware that the US has been very aggressive in asserting its influence over the world since WW2. China's aggression/crimes are a totally separate matter however, and they're certainly guilty of some horrendous shit.

 

[Sky1981]

In this very thread you've been countering claims about Chinese aggression with 'well, it isn't as bad as the US'.

It's just not helpful. I think most semi-intelligent people are aware that the US has been very aggressive in asserting its influence over the world since WW2. China's aggression/crimes are a totally separate matter however, and they're certainly guilty of some horrendous shit.

If you cant see that this is a concerted usa effort to pick a fight with china because they dont want their hegemony to be challenged than you're either naive and probably believes there's wmd in irag.

A trade war created out of the blue without warning or attempt of diplomacy, trump pulling out on billateral and multilateral agreement, huawei daughter founder get imprisoned without bail? Do you believe that? Seriously? It's like zuckerberg wife get detained in china with ungrounded accusation that hasnt even been proven.

What the us done is typical trump. He can't pay and choose to strong arm his competitor, only this time with the military of the USA behind him. The usa is smearing china with their propaganda and most lap it up as truth.

Read on quora about china, most western that has been there and lived there can attest they're not the big bad monster the west portrays them to be.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

If you cant see that this is a concerted usa effort to pick a fight with china because they dont want their hegemony to be challenged than you're either naive and probably believes there's wmd in irag.

A trade war created out of the blue without warning or attempt of diplomacy, trump pulling out on billateral and multilateral agreement, huawei daughter founder get imprisoned without bail? Do you believe that? Seriously? It's like zuckerberg wife get detained in china with ungrounded accusation that hasnt even been proven.

What the us done is typical trump. He can't pay and choose to strong arm his competitor, only this time with the military of the USA behind him. The usa is smearing china with their propaganda and most lap it up as truth.

Read on quora about china, most western that has been there and lived there can attest they're not the big bad monster the west portrays them to be.

When did I say this? I'm perfectly aware that the US is making concerted efforts to protect their position as the #1 economic superpower in the world. I'm not here saying the US is innocent, their regular attempts to impose their will and influence over the world has led to a shit ton of problems.

My problems start when people wave off whatever China does, or tries to portray them as a benevolent superpower. They have a very dark modern history (especially internally) and have been plenty aggressive when they have been capable of it.

I know people who live in China and enjoy it, I've never suggested it's some kind of hellhole where nobody could ever live. There are some incredible places in China and under the right circumstances I'm sure it can be a great place to live and work, which is exactly the same as places like the UAE for example. This doesn't change the fact that there is a very dark reality to a lot of their success, and their recent history is dripping in blood after the most violent revolution in all of world history, and they still do have a lot of problems with human rights abuses and yes, aggressive expansion.

 

[Lj82]

Yea, when they agreed to cede a lot of land to Russia.

Yup. Agree with your response to other posters on the same issue too

 

[VeevaVee]

There's a piece on Huawei on BBC News right now. It started off just telling you about their new amazing facilities, and how they're 18 months ahead of everyone else, then it went into some weird dystopian enactment of what might happen if they take over 5G through backdoors built into their devices and shut everything down, and warnings about what might happen in 10 years if we let them in. They spoke to a guy at GCHQ who said the security technology in their phones is 20 years old, which seems the opposite of what we were told just before. A scary prospect, but it all stunk of propaganda to me to be honest, especially with the weird dramatic shutdown of London acted out. Is this all just a big movement to try and stop them becoming an even bigger company?

 

[marukomu]

Since this story broke I have believed that it was just the US worried about China outselling them so they smeared their products. I'm not sure what is true anymore. I have a Huawei tablet and phone and I love them.

 

[Sky1981]

There's a piece on Huawei on BBC News right now. It started off just telling you about their new amazing facilities, and how they're 18 months ahead of everyone else, then it went into some weird dystopian enactment of what might happen if they take over 5G through backdoors built into their devices and shut everything down, and warnings about what might happen in 10 years if we let them in. They spoke to a guy at GCHQ who said the security technology in their phones is 20 years old, which seems the opposite of what we were told just before. A scary prospect, but it all stunk of propaganda to me to be honest, especially with the weird dramatic shutdown of London acted out. Is this all just a big movement to try and stop them becoming an even bigger company?

5G would forced many of us to switch from apple, or any phone that hasnt got 5g. So yes... they dont want it to happen

 

[George Owen]

Apple and CISCO must be really fecked...

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[RedTiger]

Apple and CISCO must be really fecked...

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Only if other countries have the balls to ban US hardware.

 

[George Owen]

Only if other countries have the balls to ban US hardware.

This can only end up badly.

If China decide to go after Apple (1 of every 3 iphones are sold in China) for example, ufff...

 

[Kinsella]

Apple and CISCO must be really fecked...

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

He's going to build a massive firewall.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]