[Oldyella]

If you are a first choice Manutd CB and cannot get into the National team then it says alot about the quality of the CB. John Stones who is not a regular at City gets in ahead of him.

Maguire is first choice for Manutd and England.

There is a major.. with capital M difference between Bruce and Smalling.

If you think Smalling is on that level then I am sorry mate, I completely disagree.

So its nothing to do with whether they get games for their national side, but more about the players individual quality? Good to know, and nothing like what the first post mentions.

And what do we do if Maguire loses his international spot? Sell him? Any player should be judged by what they offer Utd, and not be influenced by whether they are picked for their country.

 

[Renegade]

Doesnt really matter. He still wasn't good enough for where we wanted to be and we have finally found a better pairing.

debatable if this is a better pairing. I’m not fussed either way, I just know going forward Lindelof isn’t the answer to being Maguire’s partner.

 

[MikeKing]

Issue with Smalling is, as a defender he's decent, can do a good marking job on a top player and do well. That's fine playing the likes of City and Liverpool. His problem is when we play teams who sit back. Even in our current poor situation, many teams will park the bus against us. In these types of games his lack of composure on the ball is highlighted. Ole obviously wants to play more from the back, as does Southgate for England and Smalling doesn't fit that system. No-one saying he's a bad player, he's not. In fact I'd of liked to have kept him for certain games, but at this stage of his career he needs to be playing regular football, and he won't get that with us.

This is what i mean about buzz words. I don't mean to pick on you but I see this all the time in here. If you play teams that just sit back and let you have the ball, they wont press as high as teams that want the ball, so "playing out from the back" becomes a moot point in this context. These buzz word arguments often leads to this self-contradiction in here.

You want your team to be able to play out from the back when teams press high, so you don't quickly lose the ball and gives up attacking momentum. The whole team need to be able to play quick passes, if they are to transition their possession into a quick attack, or they need to be able to make the other team drop deeper some how, and then recirculate the ball to keep possession until the attacking shape has been establish. Defenders who pass the ball well can act as midfielders, to then break the team down. This is true. But is that it? Is all you need a couple of defenders who fit the criteria for this and it's good? No. While it definitely is about getting a team to play a certain way, you need to strike a balance around the whole team to make success of this modern formula. If you have attackers who don't know when to play it risky, and when to keep possession you'll lose the ball more than the system requires and this will have a direct effect on the tasks asked from the defenders. If you don't have the ball, how is it going to help to have a playmaker, if him and the people around him can't win the ball? This is why Pep is making it a rule all his players has to be good at winning the ball back, it is not enough to just be good when you have it, you have to go get it. This is what will keep your attacking momentum, not just their ability when they have the ball.

And the same balance that has to be struck with defenders in this context too.
If the team build an attack with Smalling, however slow, they'll eventually get there. Maybe the chance for a quick counter is gone, but you can establish an attacking shape. Maybe he won't play a penetrative pass, or maybe you'll have a De Bruyne to do that. Regardless, If the attackers lose the ball, or it gets cleared, you want your defender to be able to play his part in winning it back quickly from his positioning in a high line. If he does, then he has contributed to keeping you're attacking shape. You can continue your attack without dropping your whole team deeper. This is something Smalling does well, and it has great value to this setup. Remember the games in EL where we dominated possession? Big reason for that was Smalling's ability to win the ball back and keeping it in the team. Lindelof is Smalling's replacement, and every game I see how totally winnable duels isn't even attempted by him and it causes our whole team to drop deep, to protect our defensive shape. It is good to defend in numbers, but the amount of times we have to do it each games is ridiculous. Up and down, up and down, and it is not all due to Lindelof of course.
To summarise with a single point I will say this. While being good on the ball certainly is a factor in using possession to your advantage, an even bigger factor in keeping possession is actually winning the ball back, and the easiest way to strike a balance is to have players of high levels with different qualities that all get what is asked of them.

The question shouldn't be if a player fit one criteria, but rather be evaluated on overall usefulness. If you do, you certainly don't end up trusting Jones, Rojo and Bailly,.On the topic of Smalling, I think he has proven himself as both a reliable and versatile player performing at good levels in different set ups, so I don't understand why his contribution, willingness to adapt and professionalism has been underplayed to the point he wanted to leave.

In a less than a perfect team, which will always be the case, a defenders most important job is to defend, if he does that well he is worth consideration in any setup. Because he'll always find himself in those situations where he'll save your ass. If he has other qualities that can be used like speed, strength to contribute in attack, it is up to the manager to utilise those strengths to the benefit of the team.

You could argue Smalling doesn't fit the "modern" formulas, but does Pogba? Do Rashford fit? McTominay? DDG? In certain areas, they do, but in others they clearly don't. The same as Smalling. It is about the balance, rather than just one thing.

 

[romufc]

So its nothing to do with whether they get games for their national side, but more about the players individual quality? Good to know, and nothing like what the first post mentions.

And what do we do if Maguire loses his international spot? Sell him? Any player should be judged by what they offer Utd, and not be influenced by whether they are picked for their country.

Obviously if you ask most people and say: Who is the best player never to have played for England the answer will be Steve Bruce.

It was a point which you don't get. If you are an English CB playing for Manutd and you are 1st choice across different manager's which is what you are claiming, if you cannot get into the national team where the other choices are John Stones who doesnt play regularly and Kyle Walker at CB clearly shows what the manager thinks of him.

During Steve Bruce's era, England CB's were still decent.

Secondly, it is your opinion that Smalling was first choice, it is my opinion that the managers did not have a choice but to play him because he was the ONLY choice.

Jose doubted Smalling's qualities and came out and expressed than on a couple occasions. Hence he tried to sign another CB in his last window.

I guess you are in the should have kept Lukaku gang too...

 

[Ekeke]

Of course just like all goalkeepers make saves sometimes, doesn’t make them equally good.

Let’s say you have 10 situations where both defender A and B manage to defend.

Defender A hoofs/clears away the ball randomly 7 times and create a corner 3 times.

Defender B hoofs away the ball 2 times and control the ball 8 times.

Defender B is doing a better job imo. He is, if only looking at the data above, the better defender because he controls the ball instead of giving the other team a second chance.

Hes the better ball player sure

 

[Ekeke]

No, that’s not correct, especially in the modern game, and also Smalling to my mind doesn’t gel with others in the back line or marshal them that well.

just play midfielders in defense then, they keep the ball better than defenders

 

[A-man]

Hes the better ball player sure

And better defender. Obviously.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

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[LazyRed-Ninja]

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And you will have people who’d use this to say that he should still play at United. Another way of looking at this, is that Smalling found his level. Not world-class but a tier under that, nothing wrong with that. The problem that’s still at United is that players are being kept to long, because the club thinks they will miraculously become world class after every contract renewal.

 

[Ekeke]

And better defender. Obviously.

Obviously not, since it has nothing to do with defending. A midfielder doesnt make a better defender than a defender despite being a better ball player

Scholes wouldnt be a top CB despite being great on the ball

 

[A-man]

Obviously not, since it has nothing to do with defending. A midfielder doesnt make a better defender than a defender despite being a better ball player

Scholes wouldnt be a top CB despite being great on the ball

If there is a cross and one defender would head it to a corner, while another would head it as a controlled pass to a team member, you mean that those are two equal defensive actions?

Then I finally understand how you see some defenders greatness where I don’t.

 

[adexkola]

I've said this multiple times but Smalling is not that great of a defender that you can overlook his deficiencies on the ball, or build a team around his skillset. Good defender of course, as he is showing in Rome. He did well for us too.

 

[Ekeke]

If there is a cross and one defender would head it to a corner, while another would head it as a controlled pass to a team member, you mean that those are two equal defensive actions?

Then I finally understand how you see some defenders greatness where I don’t.

Neither would do either 100% of the time. But I guarantee a defensive specialized defender like Smalling would be more likely to head a controlled pass to a team member than someone like Lindelof who is only good with his feet.

And thats the case with plenty of ball playing CBs. They are good with their feet and not as good in the air as defenders who actually like to defend. So in this scenario where the ball is in the air, its an easy one.

Now if the ball is played along the ground with a slow cross that is easy to adjust to, if one player finds a pass to a teammate quickly and another clears it then usually the pass is better. But theres always the chance that the pass goes wrong causing extra danger and the benefit of moving the ball on 2 seconds earlier is like 20% towards getting the ball up the pitch to score a goal so its really not that important.

And again I've seen players known more for their ball playing smash the ball out for a clearance when it was possible to play a controlled pass as well. I've seen Lindelof and Maguire do it. So it isnt a 100% thing there either. All CBs clear the ball now and again when its possible to find a teammate with a pass.

 

[Falcow]

I think smalling and maguire would be a better partnership than lindelof and maguire. Smalling is a better defender than lindelof is a ball playing centre back....if you get me. Lindelof never looks like he has time on the ball despite supposedly being good on the ball, I think he is overrated in that department and it doesnt make up for his defence shortcomings. Smalling Maguire is closer to Rio Vidic type partnership and would complement each other well......in my opinion

 

[Oldyella]

Obviously if you ask most people and say: Who is the best player never to have played for England the answer will be Steve Bruce.

It was a point which you don't get. If you are an English CB playing for Manutd and you are 1st choice across different manager's which is what you are claiming, if you cannot get into the national team where the other choices are John Stones who doesnt play regularly and Kyle Walker at CB clearly shows what the manager thinks of him.

During Steve Bruce's era, England CB's were still decent.

Secondly, it is your opinion that Smalling was first choice, it is my opinion that the managers did not have a choice but to play him because he was the ONLY choice.

Jose doubted Smalling's qualities and came out and expressed than on a couple occasions. Hence he tried to sign another CB in his last window.

I guess you are in the should have kept Lukaku gang too...

I'm not even sure I'm still in the keep Smalling gang ffs, been pretty clear I think his time had come given we needed to move someone on, so I dont know what that's got to do with Lukaku...

I get your point, I just think its a bullshit metric for judging players and we should not use not being in the England squad against Smalling. Who gives a feck what England do? The next manager through the door might well see Smalling doing well in Rome and bring him back in, that doesnt mean its a good idea for us to suddenly call him back because hes been picked by England again.

 

[A-man]

Neither would do either 100% of the time. But I guarantee a defensive specialized defender like Smalling would be more likely to head a controlled pass to a team member than someone like Lindelof who is only good with his feet.

And thats the case with plenty of ball playing CBs. They are good with their feet and not as good in the air as defenders who actually like to defend. So in this scenario where the ball is in the air, its an easy one.

Now if the ball is played along the ground with a slow cross that is easy to adjust to, if one player finds a pass to a teammate quickly and another clears it then usually the pass is better. But theres always the chance that the pass goes wrong causing extra danger and the benefit of moving the ball on 2 seconds earlier is like 20% towards getting the ball up the pitch to score a goal so its really not that important.

And again I've seen players known more for their ball playing smash the ball out for a clearance when it was possible to play a controlled pass as well. I've seen Lindelof and Maguire do it. So it isnt a 100% thing there either. All CBs clear the ball now and again when its possible to find a teammate with a pass.

I am not saying a defender is doing either 100% random clearances or 100% controlled passes. What I am turning against is when people say things like “Smalling is a better defender than Maguire, by miles, but Maguire a better footballer”. Because you cant separate those things. Defending is more than aerial duels, blocks and clearances. A defender can solve a situation in different ways, but it is, imo, better to solve it in a way where your own team ends up in possession, rather than give it back to the opponent who can start a new attack. Random clearances is often seen as good defending, but imo taking control of the ball is better. And as you say, the one who takes control of the ball takes a bigger risk because it could end up like Tuanzebes pass, in your own goal. But if they are good at it, the costly mistakes will cost little in the long run, because the possession they win will decrease the overall number of conceded goals.

 

[Ekeke]

I am not saying a defender is doing either 100% random clearances or 100% controlled passes. What I am turning against is when people say things like “Smalling is a better defender than Maguire, by miles, but Maguire a better footballer”. Because you cant separate those things. Defending is more than aerial duels, blocks and clearances. A defender can solve a situation in different ways, but it is, imo, better to solve it in a way where your own team ends up in possession, rather than give it back to the opponent who can start a new attack. Random clearances is often seen as good defending, but imo taking control of the ball is better. And as you say, the one who takes control of the ball takes a bigger risk because it could end up like Tuanzebes pass, in your own goal. But if they are good at it, the costly mistakes will cost little in the long run, because the possession they win will decrease the overall number of conceded goals.

I can easily seperate those things and I do.

Here's another one - RVP was a better player than Ruud, but Ruud was a better striker. RVP had more to his game but Ruud was better at doing the important part of a striker's job and why they're paid the big bucks.

And no I dont agree at all that taking chances in your own defensive third leads to less conceded goals, I see lots of teams giving away chances like that this season and being made to pay for it. Its very risky and its nice when it works, and a disaster when it doesn't. Sometimes it works, sometimes you give away a goal out of nothing

Which by the way is the absolute worst thing you can do as a defender in my opinion. You're on the pitch to make it harder for the opponents to score goals, you're on the pitch to defend your goal. If you give the ball away 25 yards from your own goal and the opponent get a clear chance and score you've been beyond useless.

 

[arnie_ni]

Of course just like all goalkeepers make saves sometimes, doesn’t make them equally good.

Let’s say you have 10 situations where both defender A and B manage to defend.

Defender A hoofs/clears away the ball randomly 7 times and create a corner 3 times.

Defender B hoofs away the ball 2 times and control the ball 8 times.

Defender B is doing a better job imo. He is, if only looking at the data above, the better defender because he controls the ball instead of giving the other team a second chance.

Except in this situation, defender b, lindeloff only wins the ball 6 times out of the 10.

Defender A is doing a better a job

 

[arnie_ni]

I think smalling and maguire would be a better partnership than lindelof and maguire. Smalling is a better defender than lindelof is a ball playing centre back....if you get me. Lindelof never looks like he has time on the ball despite supposedly being good on the ball, I think he is overrated in that department and it doesnt make up for his defence shortcomings. Smalling Maguire is closer to Rio Vidic type partnership and would complement each other well......in my opinion

The advantage we gain from lindeloff as a ball playing cb doesnt outweigh what we lose with him as a defender compared to smalling. I get you.

If you had two harry maguires back there, then yea i could see the justification in selling smalling. But lindeloffs passing isn't that good.

 

[Isotope]

So its nothing to do with whether they get games for their national side, but more about the players individual quality? Good to know, and nothing like what the first post mentions.

And what do we do if Maguire loses his international spot? Sell him? Any player should be judged by what they offer Utd, and not be influenced by whether they are picked for their country.

You'd think United fan remember Scholes and Carrick, and how Gareth Barry and Scott Parker were picked ahead of them.

 

[Grande]

Bed Smalling.

 

[roonster09]

Good to see him doing well in Serie A, also looks like he is enjoying the league. Didn't see him conceding shit loads of penalties because of VAR, shame how that myth started and then everyone used it as a fact to criticize him.

 

[A-man]

I can easily seperate those things and I do.

Here's another one - RVP was a better player than Ruud, but Ruud was a better striker. RVP had more to his game but Ruud was better at doing the important part of a striker's job and why they're paid the big bucks.

And no I dont agree at all that taking chances in your own defensive third leads to less conceded goals, I see lots of teams giving away chances like that this season and being made to pay for it. Its very risky and its nice when it works, and a disaster when it doesn't. Sometimes it works, sometimes you give away a goal out of nothing

Which by the way is the absolute worst thing you can do as a defender in my opinion. You're on the pitch to make it harder for the opponents to score goals, you're on the pitch to defend your goal. If you give the ball away 25 yards from your own goal and the opponent get a clear chance and score you've been beyond useless.

Risk management comes with times. That’s why I was not surprised by Tuanzebes mistake.

A team where the defenders just clear the ball all the time will defend a lot as there will come wave after wave of attack. Many chances more conceded goals. A team where the defender can control the ball and keep possession will defend less and there will be less chances created. It’s not very advanced.
Smalling is good with his head and last season he won about 2/3 of all his aerials. But one weakness is that his headers have no address. Often very simple headers just end up at the feet of the opponent who can make a new attack. If more of those headers had ended up with his team mates he would have been a better defender.

 

[VorZakone]

Would have been interesting to see a Smalling - Maguire partnership.

 

[A-man]

Except in this situation, defender b, lindeloff only wins the ball 6 times out of the 10.

Defender A is doing a better a job

If you are taking aerials it is about correct. Lindelof won 64% last season. (Jones won 73% and Smalling 65% of their attempted aerials. )

This doesn’t say anything about where the ball ended up however. And not how many attempt they made.

 

[Ballache]

I'm happy for him, always gave 100% for the club but never managed to work on his ball-playing side of the game. I hope he does well and earns a permanent move to Roma.

 

[jackal&hyde]

I'm happy for him, always gave 100% for the club but never managed to work on his ball-playing side of the game. I hope he does well and earns a permanent move to Roma.

Me too. He deserves to be in the first 11 for a decent club.

 

[Grande]

Would have been interesting to see a Smalling - Maguire partnership.

I don’t think so, Magyver is a leader in terms of attitude, but not so much in terms of organizational consistency, and Smalling has a tendency to make his companions uncertain in the positional play. Also, McGuire is good on the ball, but the value of that decreases a lot if his partner is weak on the ball. It’s like having Xavi and Carlton Palmer together in a midfield, sounds balanced but will not exploit the strengths of both well.

I think Lindelöf is a better foil for Macari, and have hopes of Tuanzebe slowly turning into a first choice over both.

I do like Smalling though. Such a sexy one-on-one defender.

 

[El Zoido]

I'm happy for him, always gave 100% for the club but never managed to work on his ball-playing side of the game. I hope he does well and earns a permanent move to Roma.

There are already reports suggesting he’s coming straight back her once the loan is done.

 

[VorZakone]

I don’t think so, Magyver is a leader in terms of attitude, but not so much in terms of organizational consistency, and Smalling has a tendency to make his companions uncertain in the positional play. Also, McGuire is good on the ball, but the value of that decreases a lot if his partner is weak on the ball. It’s like having Xavi and Carlton Palmer together in a midfield, sounds balanced but will not exploit the strengths of both well.

I think Lindelöf is a better foil for Macari, and have hopes of Tuanzebe slowly turning into a first choice over both.

I do like Smalling though. Such a sexy one-on-one defender.

So not only did you write Maguire's name wrong, you wrote it wrong twice in different ways.

 

[Oldyella]

You'd think United fan remember Scholes and Carrick, and how Gareth Barry and Scott Parker were picked ahead of them.

Exactly. I'm fine with someone deeming a player not good enough, but hate the idea of basing that on International selection or not.

 

[ivaldo]

Best of luck to him. Glad he's playing well. Doesn't mean the decision to move him out was a bad one. Lindelof/Maguire is the better partnership and I much prefer having Tuanzebe as back up.

 

[Ekeke]

Its only 5 games in so a long way to go to keep it up, but the stats say he's having his 3rd best season so far. Also Roma's 3rd best performer so far this season

As well as the best form of any English CB

 

[Grande]

So not only did you write Maguire's name wrong, you wrote it wrong twice in different ways.

Three.

 

[Andersonson]

If you say so, but the fact is Ole is the manager now and is not a fan for numerous reasons.

If you are a first choice Manutd CB and cannot get into the National team then it says alot about the quality of the CB. John Stones who is not a regular at City gets in ahead of him.

Maguire is first choice for Manutd and England.

So, what about Carrick? Or Andy Cole?

They werent good enough?

 

[Grande]

Best of luck to him. Glad he's playing well. Doesn't mean the decision to move him out was a bad one. Lindelof/Maguire is the better partnership and I much prefer having Tuanzebe as back up.

Never doubted Smalling as good at what he does. I think it is right for the club to move in another direction, though. Hope we get above £20m for him though.

 

[romufc]

So, what about Carrick? Or Andy Cole?

They werent good enough?

Clearly you haven not read the full thread where I say, at that time England had decent forwards.

If you compare England's CM to when Carrick was playing you would know why he didn't get in, there were other World Class options. Carrick was a very good player for us.

However; England CB's in the last 3 years have been poor hence why Kyle Walker (he is a RB for your info) was at CB in the WC with John Stones who couldnt get into the city team.

There is a clear difference there.

 

[Sandikan]

If you are taking aerials it is about correct. Lindelof won 64% last season. (Jones won 73% and Smalling 65% of their attempted aerials. )

This doesn’t say anything about where the ball ended up however. And not how many attempt they made.

It also shows that stats can be totally useless.

There isn't a single person who has watched both players that would say Lindelof is better in the air than Smalling.

 

[Sandikan]

So not only did you write Maguire's name wrong, you wrote it wrong twice in different ways.

I have an ever so slight feeling he was taking the mick chief.

 

[Andersonson]

Clearly you haven not read the full thread where I say, at that time England had decent forwards.

If you compare England's CM to when Carrick was playing you would know why he didn't get in, there were other World Class options. Carrick was a very good player for us.

However; England CB's in the last 3 years have been poor hence why Kyle Walker (he is a RB for your info) was at CB in the WC with John Stones who couldnt get into the city team.

There is a clear difference there.

World Class options like Scott Parker, Ross Barkley or Jordan Henderson. All whom got to WC2014 before Carrick.

And Englands last showing at the WC in Russia its their best in decades. England hasnt been this good since 1966 if you look at the results.