City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with 130 FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th Sep 2024 | Concluded 9th Dec 2024 - Awaiting outcome

Absolutely vile club will have over half a billion spent this year by the end of summer, while their corruption behind the scenes plays us all for fools.

Its actually pathetic that there is any other story in football - the most blatant display of media, politics and boardroom spin and management you've ever seen, while we're all the distracted muppets forgetting that 18 months ago people actually thought they'd be kicked from league.

No, no. They're just in the process of buying another and in 12 months we all have to go along with this theatre and act like it's some sort of Guardiola turnaround.

Its embarrassing to be associated with the PL even from the distant role of a fan.
 
Pexbo said:
Should be completely independent of what happens this season. If they’re waiting to see how the league lands before confirming the punishment then something really smelly is happening.
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Possibly but Leicester and Ipswich are neck and neck on points. Maybe they're letting that play out organically before giving one of them a reprieve if City get a massive points deduction and relegated.
 
stevoc said:
Possibly but Leicester and Ipswich are neck and neck on points. Maybe they're letting that play out organically before giving one of them a reprieve if City get a massive points deduction and relegated.
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I think it’s much more likely any punishment is applied to next season. That way it won’t be viewed as being a sympathetic / cynical calculation. That way City will know what they are facing from the start.
 
Pexbo said:
I think it’s much more likely any punishment is applied to next season. That way it won’t be viewed as being a sympathetic / cynical calculation. That way City will know what they are facing from the start.
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Maybe but if they get a massive points deduction that they know will relegate them. I don't know how that would affect a Premier League season. Negatively I would imagine.
 
It’ll only be sweeter if they sign all these players and then get the harshest possible penalty. It will show the stupidity of the players and their agents.
 
A lame duck City 2025-26 isn't a terrible scenario. I still prefer they get ejected from the league but no on has the cohones to do it and they'd probably secure enough supporting clubs to avoid anyhow.
 
stevoc said:
Possibly but Leicester and Ipswich are neck and neck on points. Maybe they're letting that play out organically before giving one of them a reprieve if City get a massive points deduction and relegated.
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Please stop with the relegation talk, it's absolutely not happening
 
MrMarcello said:
A lame duck City 2025-26 isn't a terrible scenario. I still prefer they get ejected from the league but no on has the cohones to do it and they'd probably secure enough supporting clubs to avoid anyhow.
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Yeah authorities completely lack the balls to do it
 
I think any small hope or belief that they'd be punished properly is long long long gone now. If anything it'll be a laughable docking of points, some pathetic transfer window ban and that'll be that. The PL is dead, you simply can't take it seriously after this.
 
If no serious punishment is given there needs to be a massive backlash like with the super league announcements.

I suspect the PL want the harshest possible punishment but who knows.
 
How can it take this long?

Only if there's some serious juridical consequences and paper work around that to be done? Or City's billion dollar lawyers delaying it somehow? For what reasons would that be?

Could they be negotiating somehow between the punishment vs which lawsuits City will (not) bring to the table in the future when this is all over? Or is the punishment laid out in stone already?
 
Judas said:
I think any small hope or belief that they'd be punished properly is long long long gone now. If anything it'll be a laughable docking of points, some pathetic transfer window ban and that'll be that. The PL is dead, you simply can't take it seriously after this.
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People thought after the UEFA case the PL wouldn't touch them. Years later they wacked them with 115 charges. That indicated the PL thought they could get them as otherwise it made no sense for them to go after them considering the UEFA case which was widely regarded as the end of the matter.

The lack of information means no one can say what is happening. Everything everyone is saying currently is pure speculation.
 
Dave Smith said:
People thought after the UEFA case the PL wouldn't touch them. Years later they walked them with 115 charges.

The lack of information means no one can say what is happening. Everything everyone is saying currently is pure speculation.
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100% agree.

We can all interpret the delay, but it’s based on absolutely nothing.
 
Dave Smith said:
People thought after the UEFA case the PL wouldn't touch them. Years later they wacked them with 115 charges. That indicated the PL thought they could get them as otherwise it made no sense for them to go after them considering the UEFA case which was widely regarded as the end of the matter.

The lack of information means no one can say what is happening. Everything everyone is saying currently is pure speculation.
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Total speculation, obviously. I just don't believe anymore, nothing really hints at them getting obliterated which is what needed to happen for the leagues sake.
 
Judas said:
Total speculation, obviously. I just don't believe anymore, nothing really hints at them getting obliterated which is what needed to happen for the leagues sake.
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Has anything happened to hint that they are getting off lightly?
 
Judas said:
Total speculation, obviously. I just don't believe anymore, nothing really hints at them getting obliterated which is what needed to happen for the leagues sake.
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I can see why people are getting frustrated. However, this was never an easy case. The PL essentially has been playing the long game - which indicates they have been trying to make their case as airtight as possible. City also are known to ligitigate as much as possible. I don't doubt the PL want to hit City with a significant punishment (as otherwise they wouldn't have brought the charges) it is more a case of what they can actually do. For instance, we know some of the rules haven't been written well in the past, which gives City's lawyers a platform to exploit.

At this time, everyone just needs to be patient something will be announced it. We just have to hope enough of the charges are stood up so there can be a meaningful punishment.
 
ROFLUTION said:
How can it take this long?

Only if there's some serious juridical consequences and paper work around that to be done? Or City's billion dollar lawyers delaying it somehow? For what reasons would that be?

Could they be negotiating somehow between the punishment vs which lawsuits City will (not) bring to the table in the future when this is all over? Or is the punishment laid out in stone already?
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I mean, Manchester City successfully demolished the PL’s rules on APT with just a few valid arguments, where an independent panel found the regulations to be unlawful in their entirety. Quite a lot of football is based on agreeing on a set of rules, but that set of rules might not survive a lawsuit. We’re also talking about a club that voted for said APT rules, only to turn around and take legal action towards the league.

I’m not sure if they were naive or just stupid, but the PL spent ages simply requesting documents and fighting City’s lawyers over the requirement to hand over the documents. Which is fairly fecking silly considering the gravity of the situation and the size of the league. You’d expect a set of rules where there’s a time limit to hand over documents that are being requested, and increasingly worse punishments the longer you take to deliver the requested documents. A fine, fine plus docked points, bigger fine and more docked points and yadayada. Then there’s the Leicester case where their relegation saw them escape punishment. It’s hardly unlikely that the PL has a rock solid case in terms of the rules, while City’s lawyers successfully argue that the rules are simply unlawful.

I doubt any of them have inside information on the verdict itself, but they will know what was argued and both sides will have a fairly decent understanding of where things are heading. I doubt the PL, or Manchester City for that matter, were surprised that the APT rules in their entirety was found unlawful, probably the exact reason why the PL pushed so hard to vote in new rules where they modified the sections that City’s lawyeres successfully argued were unlawful.

So yeah. I think it’s fairly clear that Manchester City’s understanding is that they might take a hit, but nothing substantial that will effect their overall operation.

I suppose the interesting bit will be the reasoning behind the verdict and how it will effect the rest of the clubs in the league.
 
steeeb said:
If no serious punishment is given there needs to be a massive backlash like with the super league announcements.

I suspect the PL want the harshest possible punishment but who knows.
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The backlash will be teams like Newcastle / Chelsea skirting the rules as the punishment would be mute compared to the incentive of infringing rules in advance of being more competitive.

The problem for the league with City is always going to be around setting a precedent. If there's no ramifications this situation will present itself again albeit through a different criteria. Especially with many selective ownerships willing to be successful.
 
NotChatGPT said:
I mean, Manchester City successfully demolished the PL’s rules on APT with just a few valid arguments, where an independent panel found the regulations to be unlawful in their entirety. Quite a lot of football is based on agreeing on a set of rules, but that set of rules might not survive a lawsuit. We’re also talking about a club that voted for said APT rules, only to turn around and take legal action towards the league.

I’m not sure if they were naive or just stupid, but the PL spent ages simply requesting documents and fighting City’s lawyers over the requirement to hand over the documents. Which is fairly fecking silly considering the gravity of the situation and the size of the league. You’d expect a set of rules where there’s a time limit to hand over documents that are being requested, and increasingly worse punishments the longer you take to deliver the requested documents. A fine, fine plus docked points, bigger fine and more docked points and yadayada. Then there’s the Leicester case where their relegation saw them escape punishment. It’s hardly unlikely that the PL has a rock solid case in terms of the rules, while City’s lawyers successfully argue that the rules are simply unlawful.

I doubt any of them have inside information on the verdict itself, but they will know what was argued and both sides will have a fairly decent understanding of where things are heading. I doubt the PL, or Manchester City for that matter, were surprised that the APT rules in their entirety was found unlawful, probably the exact reason why the PL pushed so hard to vote in new rules where they modified the sections that City’s lawyeres successfully argued were unlawful.

So yeah. I think it’s fairly clear that Manchester City’s understanding is that they might take a hit, but nothing substantial that will effect their overall operation.

I suppose the interesting bit will be the reasoning behind the verdict and how it will effect the rest of the clubs in the league.
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Thanks for the input. Now that the APT case is deemed unlawful and null and void, does this mean any club including Newcastle can basically spend whatever they want?

By the APT verdict, it does sound like a regulatory body from the government maybe is the logical idea? I don't know enough about those proposals, but it seems like you can just get APT and any similar cases in the future overturned and spend/sponsor whatever you want without consequence.

As a normal football-fan you'd almost wish there'd be no punishment only for everyone to riot and kick them out by simply voting City out of the league if that is even a lawful possibility, instead of a "meh" point-reduction decision that makes everyone numb. This shit show will probably go on for years due to lawfare.
 
ROFLUTION said:
Thanks for the input. Now that the APT case is deemed unlawful and null and void, does this mean any club including Newcastle can basically spend whatever they want?

By the APT verdict, it does sound like a regulatory body from the government maybe is the logical idea? I don't know enough about those proposals, but it seems like you can just get APT and any similar cases in the future overturned and spend/sponsor whatever you want without consequence.

As a normal football-fan you'd almost wish there'd be no punishment only for everyone to riot and kick them out by simply voting City out of the league if that is even a lawful possibility, instead of a "meh" point-reduction decision that makes everyone numb. This shit show will probably go on for years due to lawfare.
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I remember reading a few things at the time and listening to a couple of podcasts and I don't think it's as straightforward as that or as NotchatGPT is trying to make out. If I recall correctly, both sides were claiming victory, and City were mainly using it as PR. On the PL side, I think how they saw it is that the wording wasn't tight enough and they'd have to reword it. You'd have to go back what was published at the time, but I don't think APT rules are completely dead in the water. City definitely won on the loans part, and I think everyone was pretty happy with that as it might complete sense.
 
ROFLUTION said:
Thanks for the input. Now that the APT case is deemed unlawful and null and void, does this mean any club including Newcastle can basically spend whatever they want?

By the APT verdict, it does sound like a regulatory body from the government maybe is the logical idea? I don't know enough about those proposals, but it seems like you can just get APT and any similar cases in the future overturned and spend/sponsor whatever you want without consequence.

As a normal football-fan you'd almost wish there'd be no punishment only for everyone to riot and kick them out by simply voting City out of the league if that is even a lawful possibility, instead of a "meh" point-reduction decision that makes everyone numb. This shit show will probably go on for years due to lawfare.
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Nah, the PL voted through a new APT rule where they made modifications to the bits that the panel deemed unlawful. Manchester City are still looking to have a go at that, but you’d hope that there’s no legal grounds to attack it. Considering all the stuff Manchester Citys lawyers threw at it, very little stuck and it’s a bit funny that the parts they argued as unlawful was enough to rule the entire set of rules as unlawful. I’d say it’s more important that the tyranny of the majority bollox, vendetta against certain clubs etc, didn’t stick as that could’ve had much bigger effects on how the league operates.

Don’t think a regulatory body from the government will fix much. At the end of the day it’s about the spirit of the rules, what you’re trying to achieve, everyone agreeing on how they want the league to function while it might not be waterproof in a court of law. City voted for the APT rules only to turn around and sue the league over it.

I’d say that the league in need of a complete reset, because they are starting to completely lose control. The ability to vote through rule changes isn’t far away from collapsing.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I remember reading a few things at the time and listening to a couple of podcasts and I don't think it's as straightforward as that or as NotchatGPT is trying to make out. If I recall correctly, both sides were claiming victory, and City were mainly using it as PR. On the PL side, I think how they saw it is that the wording wasn't tight enough and they'd have to reword it. You'd have to go back what was published at the time, but I don't think APT rules are completely dead in the water. City definitely won on the loans part, and I think everyone was pretty happy with that as it might complete sense.
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They both claimed victory, which is more or less correct.

Manchester City also claimed that this meant the entire set of APT rules were unlawful. PL disagreed, but were quick to start pushing through a vote for a new set of APT rules where the unlawful aspects were amended to comply with the laws. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cj6kg09ee84o . Manchester City have said that they will challenge the legality of the new APT rules as well.

The original set of APT rules were found unlawful, which is pretty much what City claimed after the panels initial ruling.
https://morgansl.com/en/latest/manc...l-associated-party-transaction-apt-rules-void

The Tribunal had already determined, in its first decision of September 2024 (the “First Decision”), that three separate aspects of the APT Rules were unlawful.1

However, the Tribunal has now ruled (the “Second Decision”) that those three unlawful provisions cannot be severed from the rest of the APT Rules, such that the APT Rules (as they stood during the period from their introduction in December 2021 up until their amendment in November 2024) are void in their entirety.2
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Judas said:
I'm simply venting feelings, it doesn't always have to be based on facts or reality. It's an emotive subject to me.



Total speculation, obviously. First sentence honey.
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Of course Hun. I was simply asking what hints has there been that lead coming around to the belief that they won't be punished harshly.

But I get it mate. Its been a very frustrating process.
 
stevoc said:
Of course Hun. I was simply asking what hints has there been that lead coming around to the belief that they won't be punished harshly.

But I get it mate. Its been a very frustrating process.
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The hints would be the money they are spending, contract extensions. They are very well aware of what was argued for the independent commission, panel, whatnot, so you’d expect both sides to have a decent understanding of what is going to stick or not. They won’t have a full understanding of the punishment itself, but you’d expect them to be well aware if it’s going to be a disaster or a bit of a slap.

It might also be a shit hint, and that their mentality is that it doesn’t really matter in a worst case scenario, meanwhile they’ll just continue to operate as they want.
 
NotChatGPT said:
The hints would be the money they are spending, contract extensions. They are very well aware of what was argued for the independent commission, panel, whatnot, so you’d expect both sides to have a decent understanding of what is going to stick or not. They won’t have a full understanding of the punishment itself, but you’d expect them to be well aware if it’s going to be a disaster or a bit of a slap.

It might also be a shit hint, and that their mentality is that it doesn’t really matter in a worst case scenario, meanwhile they’ll just continue to operate as they want.
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Good points. But they've always struck me as the face saving types.

And as you say until anything happens in many ways they have to carry on as if things are normal and they won't be facing severe punishment.

I have no idea if the punishment will be decided (or has even been decided yet) by a group of individuals? If so them spending a huge amount of money on players and the contract extensions could be an attempt to play mind games with those on the panel.
 
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It's bloody annoying coming in here and there's never any news. Maybe it wants locking until something actually happens? It's the same tired old conversations on repeat like Groundhog Day.
 
NotChatGPT said:
I mean, Manchester City successfully demolished the PL’s rules on APT with just a few valid arguments, where an independent panel found the regulations to be unlawful in their entirety. Quite a lot of football is based on agreeing on a set of rules, but that set of rules might not survive a lawsuit. We’re also talking about a club that voted for said APT rules, only to turn around and take legal action towards the league.

I’m not sure if they were naive or just stupid, but the PL spent ages simply requesting documents and fighting City’s lawyers over the requirement to hand over the documents. Which is fairly fecking silly considering the gravity of the situation and the size of the league. You’d expect a set of rules where there’s a time limit to hand over documents that are being requested, and increasingly worse punishments the longer you take to deliver the requested documents. A fine, fine plus docked points, bigger fine and more docked points and yadayada. Then there’s the Leicester case where their relegation saw them escape punishment. It’s hardly unlikely that the PL has a rock solid case in terms of the rules, while City’s lawyers successfully argue that the rules are simply unlawful.

I doubt any of them have inside information on the verdict itself, but they will know what was argued and both sides will have a fairly decent understanding of where things are heading. I doubt the PL, or Manchester City for that matter, were surprised that the APT rules in their entirety was found unlawful, probably the exact reason why the PL pushed so hard to vote in new rules where they modified the sections that City’s lawyeres successfully argued were unlawful.

So yeah. I think it’s fairly clear that Manchester City’s understanding is that they might take a hit, but nothing substantial that will effect their overall operation.

I suppose the interesting bit will be the reasoning behind the verdict and how it will effect the rest of the clubs in the league.
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This is the problem. Are the rules actually legal? If they're not City will 100% win.

However, the PL is essentially a golf/members club in the way it is set up. I am no expert, but if City can legally argue their position, can the PL then just push the nuclear button and put a resolution to the members as to whether they're a member they want to continue in their club? My understanding is yes.

Anyone with an actual legal understanding correct that if it is wrong.
 
NotChatGPT said:
I mean, Manchester City successfully demolished the PL’s rules on APT with just a few valid arguments, where an independent panel found the regulations to be unlawful in their entirety. Quite a lot of football is based on agreeing on a set of rules, but that set of rules might not survive a lawsuit. We’re also talking about a club that voted for said APT rules, only to turn around and take legal action towards the league.

I’m not sure if they were naive or just stupid, but the PL spent ages simply requesting documents and fighting City’s lawyers over the requirement to hand over the documents. Which is fairly fecking silly considering the gravity of the situation and the size of the league. You’d expect a set of rules where there’s a time limit to hand over documents that are being requested, and increasingly worse punishments the longer you take to deliver the requested documents. A fine, fine plus docked points, bigger fine and more docked points and yadayada. Then there’s the Leicester case where their relegation saw them escape punishment. It’s hardly unlikely that the PL has a rock solid case in terms of the rules, while City’s lawyers successfully argue that the rules are simply unlawful.

I doubt any of them have inside information on the verdict itself, but they will know what was argued and both sides will have a fairly decent understanding of where things are heading. I doubt the PL, or Manchester City for that matter, were surprised that the APT rules in their entirety was found unlawful, probably the exact reason why the PL pushed so hard to vote in new rules where they modified the sections that City’s lawyeres successfully argued were unlawful.

So yeah. I think it’s fairly clear that Manchester City’s understanding is that they might take a hit, but nothing substantial that will effect their overall operation.

I suppose the interesting bit will be the reasoning behind the verdict and how it will effect the rest of the clubs in the league.
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The old APT rules yes. They’d already been changed per required voting of PL clubs… possibly ahead of that ruling.

There’s still a ton of other breaches.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
The old APT rules yes. They’d already been changed per required voting of PL clubs… possibly ahead of that ruling.

There’s still a ton of other breaches.
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The timeline would be: "Old APT rules" - Lawsuit - Tribunal ruling - MAnchester City claiming that the entire set of APT rules are unlawful, not just minor bits and pieces - PL pushes for a vote on a new set of rules where changes are made to the bits found unlawful - Voted through successfully - Entire set of old APT rules found unlawful by panel. Manchester City still unhappy about new rules

As for the ton of other breaches, sure, but we're not talking execution as punishment.
 
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