City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

[padr81]

I'm sorry what?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mancity-premier-league-finances-arsenal-29145198 - We fecked.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Where I live the only shirts I've seen are the United one I bought my Missus 10+ years ago and a Barca 10 with Messi on the back for my daughter - and that was mainly because at the time she was 10 and very messy!

Did she keep demanding pocket money increases

 

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

‘We cheated because we had to cheat to compete with the clubs that didn’t cheat’

What a perfect summary of the situation.

 

[MegadrivePerson]

I can't post the link, but somebody who worked on the Derby County and Sheffield Wednesday cases in recent years reckons it could take up to four years before anything happens to City due to the amount of charges against them.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mancity-premier-league-finances-arsenal-29145198 - We fecked.

Oh right I saw that yesterday and slightly raised an eyebrow, but actually looking at his professional page there doesn't seem to be any official membership or any mention of that. So what does member mean? That he's a fan of Arsenal? Anyone that is involved in these positions is likely to be a fan of someone, no?

 

[crossy1686]

That is not true, some evidence was not time barred, and it was still dismissed after both sides had a say.

They were found guilty and paid a fine, people think they got away with it because they were reinstated back into the CL

 

[crossy1686]

Heard today that they have slim to no chance of an appeal if they’re found guilty due to the PL themselves leading the investigation. Also heard that any evidence is allowed to be used in court, regardless of how that evidence has been garnered.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Agreed. ‘Hard to prove‘ is the key phrase. It is ‘obvious’ he didn’t have time to work significant hours at any other job while managing City, nor would the owners have wanted him to, but how do you prove that he didn’t?

He would have emails, calls, something since he wasn’t physically there. He would have to prove he did

 

[crossy1686]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mancity-premier-league-finances-arsenal-29145198 - We fecked.

It says a lot about City fans presuming they’re fecked because the person leading the investigation is involved with Arsenal, it’s like you’re projecting your pettiness onto other people.

If you’ve genuinely done nothing wrong, it wouldn’t matter if Fergie himself was leading the investigation would it?

 

[Oranges038]

They're doing it cause we cheated. They aren't going to throw it out but its very likely all those charges won't stick. Someone was saying earlier alot of the charges like non-compliance (which we were found guilty of with UEFA by CAS) are fine worthy but non huge issues as long as City comply with the commission. Its a weird one because City were open about non compliance with Uefa but argue they did comply this time. Theres about 30 or so City actually have to win to avoid getting the boot according to what I read (which is still a lot).

The feeling isn't the PL are doing this to prevent a regulator but they rushed it to prevent a regulator. At least thats the feeling at City.
The charges were coming for regardless but not as quickly, hell the PL have already had to edit a ton of the documents because they had the wrong numbers, sections and articles in there. Thats how rushed it was, they were quoting their own rule book wrong based on an older version.

If the PL did indeed rush it through to avoid the regulator, and made mistakes the bolded line is quite possible.
I actually think a heavy points deduction that messes up only 1 season for City, fine and transfer ban is the most likely outcome we'll get too. For some reason I have 30 points ro so stuck in my head.

That said its pure speculation, if 25 charges stick and they are big ones, City could well be relegated and if 40 stick and they are tiny it could well be 10 points.

The interesting thing is the more I read the more I think relegation to the championship is off the menu. It'll be stay in the Premier League or to the Conference as the Football League don't actually have to take City or if they do can put them where the like, its likely if City are found guilty of many of the most serious here, the Football League will think we can't take them in any of the top FL divisions because of the level of the crime. Again purely speculation on my part but expulsion from the PL will lead to expulsion from the Football League as well.

Yeah, there was that one about the grass being too long...

I get that they are doing this because it was blatant financial cheating. In terms of sponsorship, there's plenty of evidence in those mails to show the types of discussions that were going on. The Mancini thing, could just be explained that he was paid to do an ad, or be an advisor for another company in a different country.

Let's say it was rushed, the PL would probably be quicker to do a deal. If it's going to drag on for months/years they'll probably look to do a deal that shows they done something. But many will see anything other than expulsion/relegation and a stripping of titles as anything other than a let off.

If they get kicked out of the PL and the League, which is unlikely. Would they have to apply to start again somewhere else on the pyramid? Would one of those leagues even want them to come In at the loss of another club?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

But don't kid yourself that this is about doing the right thing or anything.

Obviously not.

It never is. But this could (I say could) have a couple of nice (for me, at least) effects (or side effects, if you will):

City could get a proper kick in the balls - which would be nice. Not mainly (I'm not that petty) because it's City, but because their owners are scum who deserve exactly zero sympathy from anyone.

And that in itself (giving City a proper kick in the balls) could set a precedent which it might be tricky to just plain forget about the next time something similar comes up.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

I can't post the link, but somebody who worked on the Derby County and Sheffield Wednesday cases in recent years reckons it could take up to four years before anything happens to City due to the amount of charges against them.

Does that stop players from coming to them? Maybe so if they could get relegated at any time?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

‘We cheated because we had to cheat to compete with the clubs that didn’t cheat’

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

City Defence Force grieves different.

Good grief.

Typical fecking Tories. “We are only cheating because it was easier”.

They’re all at it. Samuel did actually write good copy at one point. Eons ago. Now he’s just a cum guzzling sock puppet of the exact people he’s framing as ‘The Establishment’. That guy sells the integrity of his bum hole to the highest bidder at every single juncture. He’s now circling the drain and it’s mad we keep pouring water into the tub. Turn off the fecking taps people. He will vanish.

We need to start banning articles from these kind of ghouls. It’s not news anymore, it’s propaganda.

 

[Red in STL]

Did she keep demanding pocket money increases

That was the other halves province

 

[Adebisi's Hat]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/mancity-premier-league-finances-arsenal-29145198 - We fecked.

'A member of Arsenal FC', thats a bit of a broad statement, i he a director or just a fan. It could just be The Mirror stirring the pot.

My cynical side thinks that this could be the Premier League offering a 'loophole' for City to exploit and escape from on a technicality.

 

[BlueHaze]

PDF link to Blackburn's 2009 financial statement.

You are saying that Blackburn faked these, for what reason?

Why are you hung up on blackburn I am speaking in general not about on instance or one player...

 

[Beachryan]

Were I a City fan, and one who was fine with the nature of their most recent ownership, it would all be very simple. It's one of two things:
1. I know we're breaking the rules and I don't care because the rules were just there to artificially keep the elite at the top and prevent anyone joining them
2. I know we're breaking the rules and I don't care because it's just football and it's a silly thing that entertains us, so who cares about football finances

There can't be many City fans that honestly believe - particularly early days - that Manchester City could have commerical revenue topping Real Madrid and Manchester United, which coincidentally all came from our owners cousins' companies. Surely this has all been *wink wink* of course it's legit, even among City fans?

The only news here is that City might have got caught for real this time.

 

[The Purley King]

If Mancini’s second salary was supposedly for work performed in the Middle East, presumably taxes were paid there (if they were due). However, if that money was really for managing City, as suspected, then that is tax fraud since he wouldn’t have paid tax in the UK on it.

A tax expert could confirm but it isn’t it true that if you are resident in the uk that you pay tax on any income that you receive regardless of where it is from?
Unless Mancini owns some companies elsewhere in the world where the money was paid to?
I don’t know enough about this!

 

[Red in STL]

It looks to me like there's actually 2 strands that need investigating

PL regulations are one, the other is criminal

Breaking PL rules is not necessarily illegal in the eyes of the law, however there does appear to be stuff relating to tax which likely could be of a criminal nature

 

[adexkola]

They were found guilty and paid a fine, people think they got away with it because they were reinstated back into the CL

Following the hearing, the CAS Panel deliberated and concluded that the decision issued on 14 February 2020 by the Adjudicatory Chamber of the CFCB [UEFA Club Financial Control Body] should be set aside and replaced by the following:

“a) MCFC has contravened Article 56 of the Club Licensing and Financial Fair Play Regulations.

“b) MCFC shall pay a fine of EUR 10,000,000 to the UEFA, within 30 days as from the date of issuance of the arbitral award.”

The Article 56 CAS refers to concerns the cooperation of a club with UEFA and states that a club must: “Cooperate with the licensor and the UEFA Club Financial Control Body in respect of their requests and enquiries.”

...

CAS went on to give further reasons for the decision, and more detailed reasoning is due to be published later this week.

“The CAS award emphasized that most of the alleged breaches reported by the Adjudicatory Chamber of the CFCB were either not established or time-barred,” continued the statement.

“As the charges with respect to any dishonest concealment of equity funding were clearly more significant violations than obstructing the CFCB’s investigations, it was not appropriate to impose a ban on participating in UEFA’s club competitions for MCFC’s failure to cooperate with the CFCB’s investigations alone.”

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Anyone thinking that proper multiple year transfer bans and relegations and regulations wouldn’t be an appropriate defence… is just mad, or doesn’t understand.

They haven’t just broken rules, they set fire to the rule book, then pissed on it to put it out.

They can keep the titles for all I care. Their team beat the others.

But they can be relegated to the bottom tier and have a ban on sponsorship from any entity even vaguely linked to the ownership group. Goodbye Etihad, et al. A monumental fine of several billion that’s split across the bottom 3 divisions.

I’m not even bothered it was City. I feel for their fans, honestly. They didn’t choose this. But they sure as feck need to accept how atrocious it all is. None seem to be doing that.

 

[Edwards6]

Why does it matter who I support for goodness sakes? If I told you wouldn't believe me anyways (I'm a United fan). Who I support has nothing to do with my posts in this thread, or other threads in the Football Forum (more neutral compared to the United side). Just call things as I see it



If the emails were a smoking gun (to CAS is the key word), the 2 year ban from Europe would not have been revoked. I don't think City are innocent. UEFA didn't meet the needed threshold of proof upon appeal.

I read somewhere that UEFA couldn't use the emails as evidence because it came from a hacker but the premier league can use it, don't know how true that is

 

[padr81]

Oh right I saw that yesterday and slightly raised an eyebrow, but actually looking at his professional page there doesn't seem to be any official membership or any mention of that. So what does member mean? That he's a fan of Arsenal? Anyone that is involved in these positions is likely to be a fan of someone, no?

I read somewhere he has stronger links than being a fan but it makes no odds really, the guy is highly respected in his profession, I'm pretty sure he'll be fair.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Why are you hung up on blackburn I am speaking in general not about on instance or one player...

Ok, why would the other clubs that aren't Blackburn lie about this, then? I used them as an example because you included the Roque Santa Cruz transfer, the logic is the same for all clubs.

 

[padr81]

I read somewhere that UEFA couldn't use the emails as evidence because it came from a hacker but the premier league can use it, don't know how true that is

Yup PL can use evidence regardless of how its obtained.

 

[padr81]

Yeah, there was that one about the grass being too long...

I get that they are doing this because it was blatant financial cheating. In terms of sponsorship, there's plenty of evidence in those mails to show the types of discussions that were going on. The Mancini thing, could just be explained that he was paid to do an ad, or be an advisor for another company in a different country.

Let's say it was rushed, the PL would probably be quicker to do a deal. If it's going to drag on for months/years they'll probably look to do a deal that shows they done something. But many will see anything other than expulsion/relegation and a stripping of titles as anything other than a let off.

If they get kicked out of the PL and the League, which is unlikely. Would they have to apply to start again somewhere else on the pyramid? Would one of those leagues even want them to come In at the loss of another club?

Its likely the EFL wouldn't lose a club because there'd be an extra team promoted (or one less relegated). But its completely up to the EFL is we're accepted or not from what I've read, they could decide "Nope not getting in here" and we'd have to start below that. I imagine the same all the way down the tiers. If the EFL did accept City they could restructure how they like I'd imagine as long as they don't have to feck anyone over to do it. So relegate a team who didn't get relegated or deny a legit team promotion.

I'm not 100% on this but I gathered from reading thats vaguely how it would play out.

 

[padr81]

It says a lot about City fans presuming they’re fecked because the person leading the investigation is involved with Arsenal, it’s like you’re projecting your pettiness onto other people.

If you’ve genuinely done nothing wrong, it wouldn’t matter if Fergie himself was leading the investigation would it?

Calm down it was a joke.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

This is how it feels to be city
This is how it feels to be bent
This is how it feels when you have Less money than Gent

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Dude these feckers have been putting money into everyones pockets left right and centre to lie about everything, 100 separate instances of dodging rules and paying off people and you ask that question?

Also, when a player is sold many clubs including the sellers come out and label it an "undisclosed fee"

If you see hood prints, think Horse, not Zebra. The documented evidence is huge.

There’s simply no need to go full Alex Jones and throw in football transfer fee manipulation. Sure, I wouldn’t be surprised by a case or two. But it’s of such little
Consequence to the actual crimes.

 

[Smores]

Let's hope they do come down hard on City as it might slow down our new owners for making the same mistakes.

I expect it'll be a points deduction though, 20pts is my guess. Not beyond possibility that they get such a deduction and still make the CL.

 

[padr81]

'A member of Arsenal FC', thats a bit of a broad statement, i he a director or just a fan. It could just be The Mirror stirring the pot.

My cynical side thinks that this could be the Premier League offering a 'loophole' for City to exploit and escape from on a technicality.

Not a hope, I'm convinced we're going down for this. I think most people presume a member of arsenal is stronger connection than a fan, simply because he's also listed as a member of CAS and only City are fans of CAS right now. That said I got no clue and only going off few bits I've read from City related sources (non official).

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Well, that's the controversial part.

I don't consider it cheating.
Yeah, they had the money, they bought some good players.
When you take a look back, they bought players anyone could buy.
KDB was a Chelsea reject.

The main part of their succes in the league lays in one thing only, and to be fair, it could have and should have been us.

Pep Guardiola. Had we brought him a year earlier, he would have won it more times with us then he did with City.

Oh well fair fecks pal. If you don’t consider breaking the rules, cheating, then let’s all go home.

Jesus Christ the sport would be a horror show of dead clubs and backhanders with you at the wheel.

“They’ve got money, why can’t they buy the parents of all the best youth players in the country a house?”

There’s no end to those scenarios. There are rules. They broke them.

Per chance, do you like Elon Musk?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Obviously not.

It never is. But this could (I say could) have a couple of nice (for me, at least) effects (or side effects, if you will):

City could get a proper kick in the balls - which would be nice. Not mainly (I'm not that petty) because it's City, but because their owners are scum who deserve exactly zero sympathy from anyone.

And that in itself (giving City a proper kick in the balls) could set a precedent which it might be tricky to just plain forget about the next time something similar comes up.

We can only hope that this will be the case. I have my doubts, though, for a series of reasons. The main one, as i explained, is that i believe that they were fully aware of what was going on. Come on, no one's that naive. Not even Pep. They have probably been gathering the evidence to build a case while, at the same time, being in contact with Mansour to solve this quietly. Given that, i don't believe they really want to push it as far as some people think or want them to. They still love the money from the oil states going into their own pockets and, at this level of wealth and power, you always try to come out of a situation unscathed (so that business as usual can resume) and also without damaging your rival's pride. It's bad to stir the waters so much at the very top. Worst case scenario for City, the way i see it, is a transfer ban and a certain period of time for City Investment Group to find a buyer who will give them a fair price while also abiding by the laws (both written and unwritten) of the PL. City have the status now to get good deals and keep most of their players. On the other hand, the rest will also be pleased. This way the PL will emerge out of the battle victorious having sent a strong message and without really admitting that the script for their main attraction during the past 4–5 years, the City-Liverpool rivalry, was so badly written. But demotion and stripping them off their titles... i don't see it.

 

[Oranges038]

Its likely the EFL wouldn't lose a club because there'd be an extra team promoted (or one less relegated). But its completely up to the EFL is we're accepted or not from what I've read, they could decide "Nope not getting in here" and we'd have to start below that. I imagine the same all the way down the tiers. If the EFL did accept City they could restructure how they like I'd imagine as long as they don't have to feck anyone over to do it. So relegate a team who didn't get relegated or deny a legit team promotion.

I'm not 100% on this but I gathered from reading thats vaguely how it would play out.

From what I've seen, the EFL would have no obligation to accept them. But the PL can't or have no provision to relegate them, they can only expel them. Probably because the PL is a separate body.

You'd have to assume that relegation would only be possible if they started the season with an insurmountable point deficit.

 

[BlueHaze]

Ok, why would the other clubs that aren't Blackburn lie about this, then? I used them as an example because you included the Roque Santa Cruz transfer, the logic is the same for all clubs.

A few million in the pocket from sheik? You and others might laugh it off and see it as a dumb idea but I advise you to read what they have been charged with and you will realize it is not that far off. The corruption and vile shady stuff they have been upto runs deep.

 

[BlueHaze]

If you see hood prints, think Horse, not Zebra. The documented evidence is huge.

There’s simply no need to go full Alex Jones and throw in football transfer fee manipulation. Sure, I wouldn’t be surprised by a case or two. But it’s of such little
Consequence to the actual crimes.

Footage from his office right now about FA charging them..

Spoiler

 

[loki]

Well, that's the controversial part.

I don't consider it cheating.
Yeah, they had the money, they bought some good players.
When you take a look back, they bought players anyone could buy.
KDB was a Chelsea reject.

The main part of their succes in the league lays in one thing only, and to be fair, it could have and should have been us.

Pep Guardiola. Had we brought him a year earlier, he would have won it more times with us then he did with City.

I remember back years ago some pundit spoke about how City got so good, they need a top player in a position, they spend bigger than other clubs can afford, and if it fails they just repeat that until the player doesn't fail. That scope of budget let them take risks on players and not care about failures, so other clubs couldn't go for those players at the prices city went to because they couldn't afford the potential losses. So not anyone could buy those players. Uneven playing field. And in real terms the money City should have had under the rules in place to spend wouldn't have been enough to keep them at the level they were at over that time period without the inflated sponsorships (and potentially the offbooks wages given).

 

[BlueHaze]

All this shithousery, lies, and trickery and now we have @loki in the thread.

A true sign of the gods! By odins beard those vile cheating cnuts are guilty!

 

[Dave Smith]

How is Chelsea not gonna be in trouble with 34 players? How does giving longer contracts help, these players didn’t take less money per year because of that, did they?

The Chelsea situation is quite different to this. As far as everyone is aware Chelsea haven't broken any rules.

For instance, let's have a look at the two biggest issues City are facing:

1) Making up sponsorship deals to increase revenue by having Mansoor pay the majority/significant amount of the actual deals.

2) Pay managers/players off the books.

Let's start with Point 1.

There is no evidence of suggestion Chelsea have RA do this. An example of this would be RA has Gazprom sponsor the Stamford Bridge and their shirt for £70m a year and he paid at least 50% of this deal with Gazprom paying the other half. No sponsorship deal of Chelsea's has ever been accused of this.

Point 2

There isn't any evidence Chelsea have ever paid anyone under the table e.g. Mancini where he was paid one wage directly and the other part of his wage came from a consultancy role.

What Chelsea have generally done is fine loopholes the whole time. Examples of this can be seen with:

1) RA spending like crazy in his early years when their was no sort of FFP.

2) Setting up the loan and youth systems to generate a form of artificial income to offset transfer that are spread over the length of contracts.

3) Providing extra long contracts to spread the cost of purchases, as seen with Bohely.

Chelsea have been doing things to cook the books to spend extra, but every time it has been within the actual rules, even if the things they were doing where unintended consequences/unforseen by the regulators when the put the rules in place.

As far as we are aware of, Chelsea have skated around the rules, whilst keeping in the lines. It is very different to City.

 

[NotThatSoph]

A few million in the pocket from sheik? You and others might laugh it off and see it as a dumb idea but I advise you to read what they have been charged with and you will realize it is not that far off. The corruption and vile shady stuff they have been upto runs deep.

A few million where? They can't declare it as income, so they can't spend it.