City v United: Manchester's Cold War

[Member 104911]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08h58xv

At 19:30 BT, an 1 hour and half long discussion will be on BBC Radio 5 live:

Once it was only about trophies and derby day wins. Now the battle to be the biggest club in Manchester has gone outside the stadium and into the streets and parks beyond. A fight not only for the best footballing talent in town but for the heart and minds of the city's kids too.
We hear from those on the front line - youth coaches, scouts, academy directors, parents - about how children as young as four are being wooed and won, and how an entente at the top level is masking an increasingly intense rivalry on the playing pitches and playgrounds.

Will be interesting to hear what these people have to say, maybe we can get some discussion about the subject in here as well.

 

[Sammyjunn]

United will always be the biggest club in Manchester, no battle whatsoever.

 

[superdry]

Manchester is red and always will be!

 

[Richard Cranium]

City would need about half-a-century of consistent success and for United to fall off the face of the earth and out of league football to ever be the bigger club.

To suggest you can spend about £2 billion, buy a couple of trophies with mercenaries who cry over their birthday cakes, and become the biggest club not only in Manchester, but in England (if they're bigger than us...) and arguably in world football is ludicrous.

City are a little club and always will be, no matter how much success they artificially acquire.

"Massive"

 

[arthurka]

City would need about half-a-century of consistent success and for United to fall off the face of the earth and out of league football to ever be the bigger club.

To suggest you can spend about £2 billion, buy a couple of trophies with mercenaries who cry over their birthday cakes, and become the biggest club not only in Manchester, but in England (if they're bigger than us...) and arguably in world football is ludicrous.

City are a little club and always will be, no matter how much success they artificially acquire.

"Massive"

BOOOM...

 

[Phil]

Yes it's so close.

 

[jackofalltrades]

I think the first thing is to take it seriously. "Come back when you've got 18 league titles" Liverpool fans used to say. So, we did. City have got a top manager whose ambition, I think, could be to create club and a set-up which overtakes us between 5 and 10 down the line, unlimited (?) funds, a youth system beginning to bear fruit ( long time since I checked but arent they top of the under 18 league by a significant margin ? ). Of course they're a long way off catching us in terms of trophies but that's only one of the issues. first they are out to attract talent and fame.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I think the first thing is to take it seriously. "Come back when you've got 18 league titles" Liverpool fans used to say. So, we did. City have got a top manager whose ambition, I think, could be to create club and a set-up which overtakes us between 5 and 10 down the line, unlimited (?) funds, a youth system beginning to bear fruit ( long time since I checked but arent they top of the under 18 league by a significant margin ? ). Of course they're a long way off catching us in terms of trophies but that's only one of the issues. first they are out to attract talent and fame.

That youth system is fine, but only if they actually start bringing those kids into their team and not need to spend millions on players. Also we have legendary players because a lot stay for years, where there are too many at City who are bought for ridiculous money and a couple of years are shunted out on loan because they failed or were not given time to succeed.

 

[gajender]

Thankfully our management is not as dismissive of threat posed by Manchester City ascent as some of our supporters and rightfully attempting to address the situation by improving our scouting system and making greater efforts to recruit young talent for academy locally as well as globally, youth academy restructuring seem to be almost complete.

Hopefully investment in the first team would also continue till the time we can rightfully claim to be one of the best teams in the world.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Thankfully our management is not as dismissive of threat posed by Manchester City ascent as some of our supporters and rightfully attempting to address the situation by improving our scouting system and making greater efforts to recruit young talent for academy locally as well as globally, youth academy restructuring seem to be almost complete.

Hopefully investment in the first team would also continue till the time we can rightfully claim to be one of the best teams in the world.

The problem we have is that the real talent is a few years away. The reserves are abysmal at the moment and there is not much coming through from that source.

 

[jackofalltrades]

That youth system is fine, but only if they actually start bringing those kids into their team and not need to spend millions on players. Also we have legendary players because a lot stay for years, where there are too many at City who are bought for ridiculous money and a couple of years are shunted out on loan because they failed or were not given time to succeed.

Silva has been there a few years now as has Agüero so that aspect can easily be sorted out. Guardiola is a manager who will attract future big players, plus the money of course. He's also got the experience and a team behind him to do what I said - which is set in motion a medium/long term plan. They've got the ambition and the money to do that.

In contrast since Fergie left we've been flailing a bit . Di Maria and Falcao didn't last long. Januzaj didn't turn into a star and so on. All I'm saying is that we should no way treat them as a joke.

 

[Macern]

The problem we have is that the real talent is a few years away. The reserves are abysmal at the moment and there is not much coming through from that source.

I don't know, it seems to be a couple of real good talents there. My dad watches a lot of the reserves/u18s and he goes on and on about Chong, Gomes and Tuanzebe iirc, especially the latter.

 

[cyberman]

I think the first thing is to take it seriously. "Come back when you've got 18 league titles" Liverpool fans used to say. So, we did. City have got a top manager whose ambition, I think, could be to create club and a set-up which overtakes us between 5 and 10 down the line, unlimited (?) funds, a youth system beginning to bear fruit ( long time since I checked but arent they top of the under 18 league by a significant margin ? ). Of course they're a long way off catching us in terms of trophies but that's only one of the issues. first they are out to attract talent and fame.

We heard this 6/7 years ago and we'll hear this again 6/7 years down the line.
Never have I seen a club given as much credit for what they will do than what they are doing.
Chelsea had all of this for over a decade now right down to the amazing youth system yet they're nowhere near the stature of United. Actual success.
The only reason City are named in the same breath as us is because they're in the same City. There wouldn't even be a comparison if they had the exact same setup but were based in London, again look at Chelsea.
Look at all of those Chelsea v United battle for hearts and minds articles over the years.
Nobody compares PSG to United, not once have I read an argument stating their threat to our worldwide standing yet a poorer example of their project is supposedly hot on our heels.
City haven't even been that successful as to make that comparison. They should have dominated a weak Premier League yet if you look at what they've achieved v what they should have achieved it could even be argued they've been a bust.
What is it? 2 league titles in 7 years?

 

[JASR]

United will always be the biggest club in Manchester, no battle whatsoever.

The future is not the past, nor is the present the same as the past or future.

In part of pre WWII history, United weren't even the 2nd best supported club in manchester.

But don't let facts get in the way of jingoism.

Always is just the present.

 

[SwansonsTache]

It would take some unprecedented levels of success for City to ever be as big on the international stage as United. Actually I think the headstart is so big that it will be hard to ever catch up, since that also requires an almost stagnation of the rival.

I used to travel a lot to strange locations through my job, Trinidad \ Brunei \ Myanmar \ New Zealand \ Surinam \ French Guyana \ and a lot of other countries you really don't associate with a lot of football interest, and outside of Coca Cola the biggest brand about is MUFC. It really is surreal, no matter how remote or offbeat a location I was at you could be absolutely certain some guys would come around strutting their stuff in their replica MUFC shirts. I don't think I've ever been to any country without discussing MUFC with the locals.

Locally in Manchester and in England they might have a chance though, but still it will require some unprecedented success from them and a literal stagnation from us. I really don't see it happening tbh.

 

[Beaucoup]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08h58xv

At 19:30 BT, an 1 hour and half long discussion will be on BBC Radio 5 live:

Once it was only about trophies and derby day wins. Now the battle to be the biggest club in Manchester has gone outside the stadium and into the streets and parks beyond. A fight not only for the best footballing talent in town but for the heart and minds of the city's kids too.
We hear from those on the front line - youth coaches, scouts, academy directors, parents - about how children as young as four are being wooed and won, and how an entente at the top level is masking an increasingly intense rivalry on the playing pitches and playgrounds.

Will be interesting to hear what these people have to say, maybe we can get some discussion about the subject in here as well.

Did anyone manage to grab a recording of this, would be interesting to hear Mitten's spin on this.

 

[Member 104911]

Did anyone manage to grab a recording of this, would be interesting to hear Mitten's spin on this.

You can download the entire show in the link I posted. Mitten's opinion is as always quite outdated.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Only got to listen to about 15 minutes of it . Two ex-youth coaches, one City one MU who agreed that with youngsters, say present day 8 year olds, City have the edge and that a "new Rashford" would opt for City.

Also pointed out that City were poaching MU youth coaches by upping their salary from 25,000 quid to 40,000.

I think Fergie's "noisy neighbours" comments were mind games, not that he underestimated potential challengers. To do that would prove to be a cause in the decline in the club.

 

[Red Ryan]

There is a real danger that if we don't stay competitive and start challenging for the PL soon that English football could become dominated by dynasties from Chelsea and City. Not saying it will happen but then look at what people said about Liverpool would be back on top in no time once they got sorted out and almost 30 years later they are still not there.

 

[M18CTID]

The future is not the past, nor is the present the same as the past or future.

In part of pre WWII history, United weren't even the 2nd best supported club in manchester.

But don't let facts get in the way of jingoism.

Always is just the present.

Indeed.

In any case, what I find rather amusing is that this business about who is the bigger club isn't even related to the subject matter in the OP. It was a radio programme about the battle for the best youth talent. Absolutely nothing to do with who has the most fans in Ulan Bator or some other far flung place that most local fans of both clubs are unlikely ever to visit. That's a different discussion entirely.

Fair play to the United fans who kept it on topic by the way. United do need to up their game on this and while I accept there's certain things that they couldn't have done about what City have implemented, they have acquired a lot of ground around Old Trafford that might be better served for this kind of thing rather than car parking for first team matches.

 

[Beaucoup]

You can download the entire show in the link I posted. Mitten's opinion is as always quite outdated.

Gave it a listen, just a re-hash of old news in my opinion.

All the lads that chose City over United in my lads age group have been released, a couple of the lads that jumped from United to City, have also been released, what I find strange in this, is that the boys they are now signing and are also paying compensation for, aren't as good as the ones they've let go!

 

[jb8521]

Gave it a listen, just a re-hash of old news in my opinion.

All the lads that chose City over United in my lads age group have been released, a couple of the lads that jumped from United to City, have also been released, what I find strange in this, is that the boys they are now signing and are also paying compensation for, aren't as good as the ones they've let go!

They seem more interested in the chase and being seen to be signing players ahead of other clubs rather than having a particular strategy or development plan for players once they are signed

 

[CLK_FPC]

How do you download it?

 

[Moiraine]

A club was bought by Sheikhs only because it shares the name "Manchester".
I guess that settles the argument !

 

[UDontMessWith24]

A club was bought by Sheikhs only because it shares the name "Manchester".
I guess that settles the argument !

No no, it was their history. Can't even type that with a straight face.

 

[superdry]

They were a blank canvas.... they still are.

 

[Beaucoup]

For those that can't be bothered to listen, this is the same thing in article form.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/longform_manchester_cold_war

 

[Rooney1987]

Interesting show but it's not just United that has suffered. Many clubs up north have. City have been taking the best coaches and taking all the best kids. Offering huge sums of money to parents, no wonder City's many youths teams are beating everyone 5-0. I know United and Liverpool had a story in news about investigating this.

 

[MadMike]

I think people commenting above did not have the benefit of the BBC article being published and don't know what the subject of discussion is.

The "cold war" described, is not the battle between United and City for trophies and acclaim. It's got nothing to do about the first teams at all. It's the battle for finding and recruiting the best youngsters in and around Manchester. The battle of the youth academies and scouting networks.

It explains very well how City's billions transformed the field, how their new training complex and the money/benefits they offer to young kids and scouts has tipped the balance towards them. It explains why Van Persie's, Phil Neville's and Darren Fletcher's kids are in City's academy and not United. It explains how young kids and their parents approach the situation.

It's an excellent article, absolutely worth a read. I'll link it again for all concerned. Read it all here

 

[Leonard17]

I think people commenting above did not have the benefit of the BBC article being published and don't know what the subject of discussion is.

The "cold war" described, is not the battle between United and City for trophies and acclaim. It's got nothing to do about the first teams at all. It's the battle for finding and recruiting the best youngsters in and around Manchester. The battle of the youth academies and scouting networks.

It explains very well how City's billions transformed the field, how their new training complex and the money/benefits they offer to young kids and scouts has tipped the balance towards them. It explains why Van Persie's, Phil Neville's and Darren Fletcher's kids are in City's academy and not United. It explains how young kids and their parents approach the situation.

It's an excellent article, absolutely worth a read. I'll link it again for all concerned. Read it all here

It doesn't explain, because it's a false notion. RVPs son is in Turkey and Nevilles is with Valencia. No idea on Fletchers kids. But it's been said before on here, kids are not invited, they're scouted, regardless of their fathers. So if they're not in or weren't in the academy, it's probably for a reason.

 

[namco]

Their youth system will go the way of Chelsea's. They will stockpile players but few (if any) will make it to being first team regulars.

The main reason we have had so much success with our youth system was down to SAF. He knew what was going on at the club from top to bottom. The likes of Scholes & Beckham were introduced to him as children & he kept a close eye on their progress. This is how he knew they were ready for the first team.

No manager at City is going to be taking an interest in the youth system. Why would they take a risk promoting from within when they have an unlimited transfer budget. They can just poach established players from other clubs. They have spent a huge amount on young players in the last 2 years. Why would they do this if they had some promising talent coming through.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

As has been mentioned, for all their bluster City have done next to nothing and have never been dominant. They're a flash in the pan and it won't be long before its business as usual.

Any competition at grass roots level is simply us choking their attempts and preventing them from having a free run. It wouldn't make much difference if they signed every kid within 30 miles of Manchester, they'll never do anything with them.

They're fifty years behind and will never get close. They'll all get bored soon enough.

 

[Infra-red]

As has been mentioned, for all their bluster City have done next to nothing and have never been dominant. They're a flash in the pan and it won't be long before its business as usual.

Any competition at grass roots level is simply us choking their attempts and preventing them from having a free run. It wouldn't make much difference if they signed every kid within 30 miles of Manchester, they'll never do anything with them.

They're fifty years behind and will never get close. They'll all get bored soon enough.

I take it this is sarcasm...

 

[Cliche Guevara]

No.

Although I didn't realise this was in the youths/reserves forum so am just talking generally in relation to them becoming the bigger club.

 

[Sandikan]

I think the first thing is to take it seriously. "Come back when you've got 18 league titles" Liverpool fans used to say. So, we did. City have got a top manager whose ambition, I think, could be to create club and a set-up which overtakes us between 5 and 10 down the line, unlimited (?) funds, a youth system beginning to bear fruit ( long time since I checked but arent they top of the under 18 league by a significant margin ? ). Of course they're a long way off catching us in terms of trophies but that's only one of the issues. first they are out to attract talent and fame.

I'm not sure we've ever been ahead of Liverpool on overall trophies, yet we've been a bigger club than them in living memory.

So just the trophy side of things wouldn't change it.
It'd take them a number of decades to build the worldwide fanbase for starters.

 

[MadMike]

It doesn't explain, because it's a false notion. RVPs son is in Turkey and Nevilles is with Valencia. No idea on Fletchers kids. But it's been said before on here, kids are not invited, they're scouted, regardless of their fathers. So if they're not in or weren't in the academy, it's probably for a reason.

I see. Did BBC get it very wrong or did these kids belong to City's youth team at some point, just not now? It feels like a well researched article to be so wrong.

 

[owlo]

They seem more interested in the chase and being seen to be signing players ahead of other clubs rather than having a particular strategy or development plan for players once they are signed

As a medium term strategy it's not all bad. They are basically saying 'look, independent of their football development, we're gonna look after your kids with schooling etc and give them the best chance at life.' For parents from deprived areas or what not, it's a good PR move (perhaps not for the kids who never had a chance in the first place of making it though)

When an actually talented youngster comes along, that track record of 'caring for welfare' could make the difference.

 

[MadMike]

I'm not sure we've ever been ahead of Liverpool on overall trophies, yet we've been a bigger club than them in living memory.

So just the trophy side of things wouldn't change it.
It'd take them a number of decades to build the worldwide fanbase for starters.

The article (which the thread is based on) talks nothing about trophies, club achievements etc. You guys are going off on a tangent.

 

[Sandikan]

The article (which the thread is based on) talks nothing about trophies, club achievements etc. You guys are going off on a tangent.

That's what us internet fans do mate

 

[jackofalltrades]

I'm not sure we've ever been ahead of Liverpool on overall trophies, yet we've been a bigger club than them in living memory.

So just the trophy side of things wouldn't change it.
It'd take them a number of decades to build the worldwide fanbase for starters.

There's a debate going on about that on another thread as you know, but we've won 20 to their 18 league titles. But my point is that they didn't use to take us seriously - how many league titles did we have when Ferguson took over (7 ?), honestly don't remember. As I say, they used to guffaw and say come back when......And who would have believed you if you'd said by 2012 we'll have more leagues than you and by 2017 more trophies ? But here we are.

The fan base surely goes with success in the major trophies ? The top ones are the PL and CL in my view, and as I said in my post they've got the money, in Pep they've got not only a proven manager but one who has the experience and backup team from Barça's "Mas" to propel them forwards, and the ambition. With modern technology, how far are they from creating a massive fanbase, success permitting ? As you say about our situation re Liverpool, it was us being more successful during a period when their history of title wins was fading from young fans' minds.

My main point is that we absolutely must take them seriously as a competitive threat, as we did with Chelsea, or we will fall behind.