Clearing out the squad for the new manager - yay or nay?

[OleGunnar20]

I know people trot out the line of 'You can't sign more than 4 players per year this isn't Football Manager' etc etc, alot, but the reality is we need a HARD reset this summer. We need to clear out the dross (Which is what, about 60% of this squad?) and begin to build a winning spine.

We can sign more than four players at a time, but will we ? Probably not. In this case we need go focus on getting the right mentalities in the door. We need players who want to play for the club, who have the mental strength to help drag us back to where we as a club want to be. And of course, they need to have the ability to match and the age profile to be around long enough.

Do we have any of these players now I wonder? Bruno maybe? Sancho perhaps? I'm really not sure.

Eirher way, once in place we can fill the gaps around these leaders with ambitious youngsters and reasonably talented follower types (Lindelof, Fred, Elanga etc) and build from there.

It's gonna take a long time, but if we keep trying to build on foundations made of sand, we'll be in the wilderness longer than the scousers were before we know it.

 

[VidaRed]

Who says we cant sign more than 4 players, where's the rule that prohibits transfers ? This is the glazer propaganda speaking.

We'll be selling half a dozen players too so money isn't going all one way.

When roman took over chelsea he signed a dozen players in the first window.

Edit: It was 16 players

 

[yamo123x]

Yes we need a total rebuild but it wont happen.

if we can get rid of Pogba, Lingard, Cavani, Martial, Mata and Rashford i'd be happy.

Just hope the Greenwood situation sorts itself out.

 

[JB7]

That is your opinion but the fact is he is one of the few players here who has won a PL title and his form has been more than decent this year. It may well be he will be replaced in a few years but there are far bigger issues with the team and the handful of better options out there would take every penny of our budget and then some and please don't try and talk up Henderson, that myth has already been disproved.

I'm not even one of Hendersons biggest fans and gave several potential options on the first page of this thread but please do tell me how that particular "myth" was disproved? I'm presuming it is last season you're talking about given that was the only season Henderson has had a fair run in the team. So was it disproved by us defending better and by extension conceding considerably less goals with him in the team? Was it by him having more clean sheets in 12 fewer games than DDG? Was it by us winning more games with him in the team? I'm interested as to which of these facts disproved the "myth" of us being a better team with Henderson in goal than De Gea?

I'd anticipate that you'll respond with his performances against AC Milan and Liverpool where he made errors, what goalkeeper doesn't? De Gea cost the Europa League final with cowardly goalkeeping for Moreno's goal in addition to all the other mistakes that season. People will tell you he's our player of the year this season but has had horror shows against Atalanta (twice), Liverpool, City (twice), Watford and Leicester off the top of my head to rival anything from Henderson last season. And that's without even look at the games he supposedly saves us in, given that half the time he's been at fault prior to pulling off a big save by either giving possession away, not claiming across that goes right past him or claiming a ball coming into the penalty area putting the defenders under pressure.

De Gea is a massive problem and has been for years. Until he is changed, nothing will change and if we are going to "rebuild" then that is where it should begin otherwise the defensive issues will continue. You say he's one of only a few players here that has won the league, which is absolutely correct but he was also dropped twice during that season for reasonable spells if I remember correctly. It's also 9 years ago so hardly relevant unfortunately especially given that was one of our worst defensive seasons in years at the time (a pattern which has followed his career with us). If you really want to hark back that far then how about the taking another look at Kompany's goal which cost us the title in 2012 which a proper goalkeeper deals with all day long.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Thousand times yay, but don't you even think bringing players without much of a thought.

The ones arriving, or promoted must have not only tools but ambition and much needed aggression to succeed in Premier League. Man United is not a charity organisation for troubled players that just want to experience a ride in a legendary football club.

Thorough preselection, every season, just like in any elite club with right mentality.

 

[Hughie77]

There's, definitely a few going, cavani , mata, lingard, Pogba, Pereira, Jones. And who knows about some others, imo I'd sell Martial, Rashford, Maguire. Who knows what Ronny will do either he's got another year, but he could decide to rip it up and retire or go somewhere else?
We also got the Greenwood situation? Who knows what's going to happen there, let's assume he's not getting back to OT, so there's another load of goals we have to find from somewhere else.
We need at least a top striker in, A CM to replace Pogba, a CB , and RB, and imo that position has been problematic since Valencia went.
I think We could sell Henderson as well, there's a fair few quid there. The problem in selling these are there wages.
4 new faces of Quality needed.

 

[Hughie77]

Yes we need a total rebuild but it wont happen.

if we can get rid of Pogba, Lingard, Cavani, Martial, Mata and Rashford i'd be happy.

Just hope the Greenwood situation sorts itself out.

Agree with , the last sentence even more.

 

[hobbers]

Henderson, Grant, Jones, Bailly, Pogba, Mata, Lingard, VDB, Martial, Greenwood, Cavani

That's 11 who should be out regardless.

Beyond that we obviously need to get rid of and replace AWB, Maguire, Matic and probably Rashford. But that would be the second phase of any rebuild a year from now.

 

[Chief123]

The only positive you can take from the new manager coming in is that he will literally be able to choose who he fancies and who he doesn't. If he decides to ditch a couple of big players, there won't be added pressure on him because fans are willing to drop any of the current crop if it means its better for the team. If the manager doesnt fancy Maguire, Bruno, Rashford or Ronaldo, I think the fans will buy into it as long as performances are improving. Previously it's been difficult for a manager to drop certain players just because of who they are or what they cost.

 

[Maurice Setters Training]

True, but i don’t think we live in those times anymore. Woodward wanted to rectify his first season, and tried overcompensating. We would need 3-4 starters now, on what is rumoured to be a much lower budget if we don’t make it to top 4.

I could see us signing several players in one go if we have the right manager and systems in place.
Well scouted, hungry (probably young) players who follow tactical instructions are the cheap part of the rebuild. That could get us into the 70-75 points a season zone. The sprinkling of top players that get us to the next level would be the expensive signings.

Of course, I don't know whether a systems manager like ETH would come in with the players in mind- or whether he would want to get the scouting systems in place first.

 

[Revaulx]

Yeah I agree they should not be the decision makers. I don’t have any issue with the football people behind the scenes overruling the manager as we can’t have a recruitment structure that relies on a manager anymore. Like we all know times have changed and it’s very rare for a manager to last beyond 3 years.

The problem arises as you say, when the likes of Woodward and Murtough who are not football qualified, make these decisions. Yes let’s hope Ralf and the new manager are listened to!



Yeah fully agree. My issue is that Ralf hasn’t been given any decision power so I don’t see how our transfer structure has changed in any way. Still non-football people involved just like before. The non-football people like Murtough should of course set the budget but not be dictating incomings and outgoings. I have no expectations for this summer but of course still have that crazy football fan hope that it might be a great transfer window

How is Murtough “not football qualified”?

Prior to coming to United he’d had a load of experience in player development at a high level, ending up as Head of Elite Performance at the Premier League. Hardly not qualified!

I’m not sure he’s exactly a visionary; he seems more of a techie geek details person. But just because United dole out impressive sounding titles to unqualified people doesn’t mean that other places do.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

A clear-out isn't very practical even if the new manager and board wanted it,, moving a player on with the kind of wages we pay is problematic at best, it generally involves loan moves, or subsidizing salaries in some way. Then you have the question of how you replace them? The club isn't a bottomless bit of money, how much would it cost to bring in say 5 or 6 new first team players 300 million maybe? That's not realistic for one summer without spiraling debts.

Whats more likely is a few players will leave and the new manager/ Arnold will bring in 2 or 3 new faces to fulfil the most desperate squad needs.

 

[InspiRED]

I started to write that I don't think the squad needs gutting, but when you look at the aging contingent as well, it kind've does. We really are pretty fecked. Top priority should be getting rid of the toxic passengers that aren't pulling their weight: Rashford, Lingard, Pogba. Then next the ageing: Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic, Mata. Then the ones who just aren't good enough: Maguire, AWB, possibly McTominay. Holy feck, starts becoming a case of 'Who's Left?!". No wonder they got Ralf in, we'll have a Red Bull quality squad soon.

 

[Gator Nate]

No player in this squad should be sacred. And we need to shed more than we bring on.

Sometimes, we need to just sell a player for whatever we can get. Cut the losses.

Sometimes, we just need to loan a player out and pay part of their wages. Cut the losses.

Sometimes, we just need to let a player walk and get over it. Cut the losses.

Players shouldn't be signed because of their star status. Cut the waste.

Players shouldn't be signed because we didn't sign someone else. Cut the waste.

Players shouldn't be signed without a specific purpose. Cut the waste.

The biggest problems that I see are that we don't do good business (for being a bunch of businessmen) and we don't do football business (for being a football club).

 

[Drz]

I'd vote Yay. I'd gut the squad of some obvious candidates before the new manager gets in.
Main reason: avoid any bad blood/resentment from the remaining players towards the new guy for "ridding them of their mate(s)".
Second reason: as a club we need to draw a line in terms of what is acceptable regardless of who manages us.
Third reason: (but kind of the underlying of the previous two) put an end to player power.

 

[Elcabron]

I'm not even one of Hendersons biggest fans and gave several potential options on the first page of this thread but please do tell me how that particular "myth" was disproved? I'm presuming it is last season you're talking about given that was the only season Henderson has had a fair run in the team. So was it disproved by us defending better and by extension conceding considerably less goals with him in the team? Was it by him having more clean sheets in 12 fewer games than DDG? Was it by us winning more games with him in the team? I'm interested as to which of these facts disproved the "myth" of us being a better team with Henderson in goal than De Gea?

I'd anticipate that you'll respond with his performances against AC Milan and Liverpool where he made errors, what goalkeeper doesn't? De Gea cost the Europa League final with cowardly goalkeeping for Moreno's goal in additional all the other mistakes this season. People will tell you he's our player of the year this season but has had horror shows against Atalanta (twice), Liverpool, City (twice), Watford and Leicester off the top of my head to rival anything from Henderson last season. And that's without even look at the games he supposedly saves us in, given that half the time he's been at fault prior to pulling off a big save by either giving possession away, not claiming across that goes right past him or claiming a ball coming into the penalty area putting the defenders under pressue.

De Gea is a massive problem and has been for years. Until he is changed, nothing will change and if we are going to "rebuild" then that is where it should begin otherwise the defensive issues will continue. You say he's one of only a few players here that has won the league, which is absolutely correct but he was also dropped twice during that season for reasonable spells if I remember correctly. It's also 9 years ago so hardly relevant unfortunately especially given that was one of our worst defensive seasons in years at the time (a pattern which has followed his career with us). If you really want to hark back that far then how about the taking another look at Kompany's goal which cost us the title in 2012 which a proper goalkeeper deals with all day long.

Agree completely. Ddg reminds me of Shay Given, used to make great saves but refused to leave his line so no wonder he needed to flex the reflexes so often..Ddg also rubbish with the ball at his feet. We need to start the clear out with him.

This is why I favour Luis Enrique as manager. I get the feeling he is strong minded enough to make those kind of decisions whereas I think neither Ten Haag nor Poch has that ability or perhaps authority/presence. I could be wide of the mark here but that's my impression.

As for a clear out, yes I believe that we need to cull about 15 as soon as possible: Henderson, DDG, Jones, Bailey, AVB, Tuanzabe, lingard, Pogba, Mata, Pierera, DVB, Cavani, Martial and Ronaldo. Aside from transfer fees, that's at least 115m per year in wages..... absaloutely criminal. Over 10 years that's near what we have spent on transfer fees, it's mental. You could make a case for Maguire and Rashford to be included there as well.

Bring in 5 high quality replacements (5 is plenty as most of that 15 do not contribute at all) and promote Hannibal and co and we are on the right path.

 

[Redfrog]

I want Ten Hag for a myriad of reasons. But could be whoever.

How would you feel about a massive clear out? The likes of Rashford, Shaw etc.

Players who have been here for years, won nothing, and developed a bad culture (whether due to the players themselves or terrible management).

Bring through a lot of the youth. Even if they aren't United quality. In the the hopes that a new, driven work ethic can be instilled. This could then be built upon by shrewd recruitment by a more football focussed upper management (fingers crossed) and tactically-consistent coaching.

Could well result in us hovering in the lower reaches of the top-6 for a few seasons, but I'd argue it would set us up better to challenge for titles again in the future. None of this treading water crap, which we can't even achieve!

What say you? Do you think this is a valid strategy? Or would you prefer we go down an Ancelotti/Zidane approach and try and milk the players we have?

I don’t think Zidane can do anything with this team and he is very smart so he won’t come here, we are in shambles.

 

[Redfrog]

Who says we cant sign more than 4 players, where's the rule that prohibits transfers ? This is the glazer propaganda speaking.

We'll be selling half a dozen players too so money isn't going all one way.

When roman took over chelsea he signed a dozen players in the first window.

Edit: It was 16 players

Wow, 150 m in one window was insane at the time. To get the same kind of players you will need to spend 5 or 6 times more right now.

 

[VidaRed]

Wow, 150 m in one window was insane at the time. To get the same kind of players you will need to spend 5 or 6 times more right now.

We need not buy half dozen 50m players. There are plenty of players with value, for instance rangnick had identified a midfield who would have cost us 8m in janurary but the board wasn't having any of it. There are numerous players under 50m who would be an instant upgrade on our current crop of players.

 

[Speako]

Sell the club, knock down Old Trafford, Sell all the players. Going to be a busy August.

 

[joedirt87]

absolutely in favor of a clear out

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

City cleared 12 players out in the summer of 2017 to give Pep the team he wanted. Time to execute the overdue purge.

 

[MackRobinson]

Yes, a club should clear out the squad for a manager you truly believe in.

 

[NoLogo]

No manager should have any input on players until he lasted two years, and here is why. Managers these days are head coaches, not squad planners. The philosophy of what football we want to play and a recruitment to fit this policy must come first. Once a manager has shown he fits well into that philosophy and can work with the players and improve them, he can have a say in what players he still needs, but not before. Otherwise, we will keep repeating the same mistakes and start a rebuild every 3 years with a new manager.

 

[Random Task]

The new manager can decide for himself provided he gets recruited early enough in the summer, allowing him time to properly assess the squad capabilities and whether they fit his desired system.

He's likely to be granted a blank cheque regarding recruitment given the lack of spending in the January window. That's one positive.

 

[VidaRed]

No manager should have any input on players until he lasted two years, and here is why. Managers these days are head coaches, not squad planners. The philosophy of what football we want to play and a recruitment to fit this policy must come first. Once a manager has shown he fits well into that philosophy and can work with the players and improve them, he can have a say in what players he still needs, but not before. Otherwise, we will keep repeating the same mistakes and start a rebuild every 3 years with a new manager.

Will you abstain from calling for his sacking if the players down tools for two seasons ?

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah I agree they should not be the decision makers. I don’t have any issue with the football people behind the scenes overruling the manager as we can’t have a recruitment structure that relies on a manager anymore. Like we all know times have changed and it’s very rare for a manager to last beyond 3 years.

The problem arises as you say, when the likes of Woodward and Murtough who are not football qualified, make these decisions. Yes let’s hope Ralf and the new manager are listened to!



Yeah fully agree. My issue is that Ralf hasn’t been given any decision power so I don’t see how our transfer structure has changed in any way. Still non-football people involved just like before. The non-football people like Murtough should of course set the budget but not be dictating incomings and outgoings. I have no expectations for this summer but of course still have that crazy football fan hope that it might be a great transfer window

Who told you that Murtough was a non-football person?

 

[NoLogo]

Will you abstain from calling for his sacking if the players down tools for two seasons ?

No, why would I? Read again what I wrote, the 2 years are a phase in which he needs to show he fits the club and the team, if he doesn't, sack him after 6 months for all I care.

Of course, all this demands that we actually have people at the club who know how to build a properly balanced football team, that can play the play style we want to see, and admittedly we are not capable of this right now, which is why I have been saying for years now, that is the kind of know how this club needs to bring in, get some of the best DOFs and technical directors in first, restructure scouting and training with the quality personal that should be working at the worlds "biggest" club.

Funnily enough, we have someone at the club who actually delivered somewhat of a blueprint on how to build these structures at two clubs already, the dumb part is though that he is just going to be an advisor, without any real say in anything.

But what is the alternative, we bring in Poch now, who is a rather different style of manager to Rangnick again, and he brings players in that might or might not work in his system. If we simply let the style of the manager always dictate our football philosophy, we will find ourselves in the same spot again 2-3 years from now and bring in the next manager with the next philosophy just to fail again.

And just so we are clear, I'm absolutely for moving on any player that doesn't work within our philosophy or doesn't show 100% commitment to the club.

 

[Cassidy]

Who says we cant sign more than 4 players, where's the rule that prohibits transfers ? This is the glazer propaganda speaking.

We'll be selling half a dozen players too so money isn't going all one way.

When roman took over chelsea he signed a dozen players in the first window.

Edit: It was 16 players

Anyone with sense knows this United board and setup isnt going to do that.

 

[united for life]

It is obvious that this current team won’t be the same for long. At the end of the season, the contracts of Mata, Lingard, Pogba, Cavani and Grant will expire. None of these will renew (it seems including Pogba). Greenwood is gone and we have the likes of Jones, VDB, Rashford, Martial, Henderson, Bailly, Tuanzebe and Williams all at risk of leaving; I am surely not saying they will all go, but these are players who seem not to have a future or would want to be regular starters somewhere else.

in short, we are a mess, terrible mess and there is no way a transfer window would help. We’d need at least 3 with a proper manager to get to where we were last year probably (which is not a great place anyway). With that said, any new manager (and I really hope it is someone who can stabilise the team this time and manage egos) should be supported in the transfer market no doubt, but should also look at the academy and start integrating youngsters into the team. we need to go back to this. We haven’t stopped promoting from the academy, but the next phase should focus on that. We’ve spent so much on players on the last 9 years with no return.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

The problem arises as you say, when the likes of Woodward and Murtough who are not football qualified, make these decisions. Yes let’s hope Ralf and the new manager are listened to!

John Murtough was a sports scientist at Everton before he became Premier League’s head of elite performance in 2012. Then he followed David Moyes to United and stayed with us since 2013. The man knows a different aspect of football, but he's far from being ignorant.

 

[VidaRed]

John Murtough was a sports scientist at Everton before he became Premier League’s head of elite performance in 2012. Then he followed David Moyes to United and stayed with us since 2013. The man knows a different aspect of football, but he's far from being ignorant.

Hopefully we don't re-sign moyes

 

[Roboc7]

We should have been clearing more players out every summer, we just keep clinging onto them. More will leave this summer than usual due to contracts expiring but with likes of Arnold and Murtough still involved I can’t see us suddenly becoming ruthless and expect we’ll continue policy of retaining players.

We need a huge clear-out but will take a long time and we need to start thinking ahead to stop more deadwood building up. Liverpool loaned out Brewster, he did well, they cashed in. We just wouldn’t do that, he’d get a huge new contract and then spend 4 years warming our bench/being loaned out. I don’t see who at the club has the competence and authority to make decisions which is why everything just gets pushed further down the road.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

How is Murtough “not football qualified”?

Prior to coming to United he’d had a load of experience in player development at a high level, ending up as Head of Elite Performance at the Premier League. Hardly not qualified!

I’m not sure he’s exactly a visionary; he seems more of a techie geek details person. But just because United dole out impressive sounding titles to unqualified people doesn’t mean that other places do.

Who told you that Murtough was a non-football person?

Very fair points. I’ll be honest, I spoke slightly out of turn then. I didn’t mean he’s a non-footballing person, I meant that he’s not played or managed the sport, he is corporate. I am happy he’s at the club, we need him to make sure we have the right structure from coaching at all levels to the scouting dept. I have no issue with him signing managers and data analysts but does he/should he be making decisions on signing/extending playersl?

What capacity will Ralf have in his role as consultant at the end of the season? From my understanding, he would usually be doing the job of Murtough at the clubs he has been at. Then we have the supposed transfer committee which the head scout and manager are part of too. Is there too many opinions there to make good decisions or is more people a good thing?

 

[Nytram Shakes]

We have to be more pragmatic here. First of all, it’s not easy to sell players at all, not like hitting a magic button and then SOLD!

Secondly, we would be buying 3-4 players next summer for the new manager. Not more. We have never bought more than that, and without top 4, we probably won’t have a big budget.

So we need to be very practical here, sell players who want out or are bad eggs (Ralf should be helping out on this), while keeping some players who are not necessarily fan favourites for the next season. It’s a matter of balance. So fans who are expecting a massive clear out and buying, FM style, might be disappointed. I also don’t think Maguire would be sold next season. Because we can only buy so many players, and we have other positions in need. So keep your expectations grounded.

I agree with everything you said, but people won’t keep there expectations grounded.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

John Murtough was a sports scientist at Everton before he became Premier League’s head of elite performance in 2012. Then he followed David Moyes to United and stayed with us since 2013. The man knows a different aspect of football, but he's far from being ignorant.

Terrible choice of words from me. I meant he’s not ever been part of the game as in playing or coaching. That’s just my opinion though, he of course might be an excellent judge of player and a great decision maker who can make full use all of the information presented to him.

 

[croadyman]

I want Ten Hag for a myriad of reasons. But could be whoever.

How would you feel about a massive clear out? The likes of Rashford, Shaw etc.

Players who have been here for years, won nothing, and developed a bad culture (whether due to the players themselves or terrible management).

Bring through a lot of the youth. Even if they aren't United quality. In the the hopes that a new, driven work ethic can be instilled. This could then be built upon by shrewd recruitment by a more football focussed upper management (fingers crossed) and tactically-consistent coaching.

Could well result in us hovering in the lower reaches of the top-6 for a few seasons, but I'd argue it would set us up better to challenge for titles again in the future. None of this treading water crap, which we can't even achieve!

What say you? Do you think this is a valid strategy? Or would you prefer we go down an Ancelotti/Zidane approach and try and milk the players we have?

We need a massive clear out, unfortunately the board won't ever allow it to happen no matter who is the manager

 

[USREDEVIL]

feck yea, go nuclear
Fred, Rashford, McT, Maguire, Dalot, Martial (remember him?), Mata, Matic, Lingard, and Henderson
Can't sell all, but sell, release, don't resign, etc.

 

[Rozay]

I don’t want clear dead weight being survivors because the new manager needs to ‘have a look at his squad’. Therefore the likes of Tuanzebe and others who are clearly not up to it end up hanging around again waiting to be condemned by yet another manager and hope he is sacked before they are so the whole process can restart.

 

[Bastian]

I'd like a multiple choice poll of all the players - guessing which ones won't be at the club next season. Feasible?