g = window.googletag || {}; googletag.cmd = googletag.cmd || []; window.googletag = googletag; googletag.cmd.push(function() { var interstitialSlot = googletag.defineOutOfPageSlot('/17085479/redcafe_gam_interstitial', googletag.enums.OutOfPageFormat.INTERSTITIAL); if (interstitialSlot) { interstitialSlot.addService(googletag.pubads()); } });

Conceding cut-back goals

tenhagsimp

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 7, 2023
Messages
125
Not surprising. With the rise of data and analytics, football in general seems to be converging around the cut-back goal as the most optimal way to score, in the same way that basketball has converged around the three-pointer.
This. If FIFA players can figure out the easiest way to score is via low cutbacks I think these well paid analyst can figure it out too. I know its only a game but the logic is still the same which is dragging the defenders wide and deep then putting the ball into an empty spot in the middle of the box to be finished by runners. The problem which I dont understand is our team rarely ever attempted this move while all other top teams (esp city, pool, arsenal) keep spamming this move to a high success rate. Our wingers (esp rashford) keeps cutting in for whatever mysterious reason.
 

cyril C

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
2,661
We had a couple of pull back chances but 3-4 Brighton players converged on the shot.
Well, if our wingers and MF were more discipline like the Arsenal games, I am sure all 3 goals were avoidable.

If Rashford didn't turn into "James", perhaps we could have scored 2-3 times. The only time that he tried to pass, was after the ball passed the baseline.

Personally, I wasn't too unhappy about the Arsenal loss, because we did play well for 80min, until the sub came in, and we did have 1 good chance to kill the game. But the Brighton game, was poor after 10min or so.
 

Marcus

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 1999
Messages
6,180
If we want more cut back opportunities, then we need to play left footed attackers and right footed attackers on the right.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,830
Location
india
Our midfielders for some reason are just terrible at it - always jogging back half heartedly. I don’t know if it’s a mentality thing or an ability thing but Brightons first two goals reslly exposed it once again. And I don’t think they even created that much uptil that point.
 

DRJosh

Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
2,973
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Supports
United minus the Glazers
Isn't the cut back a basic element of attacking play? I think the poor decision making of Rashford contributes to our lack of goals from this front.
 

Lyng

Full Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
5,238
Location
Denmark
Isn't the cut back a basic element of attacking play? I think the poor decision making of Rashford contributes to our lack of goals from this front.
Its a problem with both him and Antony. But yes the stats are quite clear that cutback is the most efficient way to score. Not surprisingly the one time we did see a cutback pass we scored. Shame it was out of bounds.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

Full Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
21,750
Location
Copenhagen
Supports
Time Travel
It feels like Ten Hag sold the forward press as the magic bullet that solves all problems and the whole squad looks like a fish out of water once its bypassed.
 

justsomebloke

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
5,985
Isn't the cut back a basic element of attacking play? I think the poor decision making of Rashford contributes to our lack of goals from this front.
Did you notice that our disallowed goal came from exactly Rashford dribbling to the line and delivering a cutback? Not for the first time this season either.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
53,408
Location
Hope, We Lose
It generally happens when opponents have put a good 3 or 4 players forward in the move and the CBs are occupied with positioning themselves for a cross to a target in the middle further forward. So when the ball is cut back our midfielders need to have sensed the danger and be the first on there to intercept the ball. Our "DMs" arent doing a good job of this, tracking back with runners and seeing out the danger.

I say generally because its completely possible that a fullback or CB has sensed the danger and anticipated the cutback and then rocketed away from marking their player and possible danger, into an aggressive pressure and challenge on the player to stop them getting the shot away. But again doing this means they can be leaving other targets free and with some bad luck the ball takes a deflection on the pullback or on the pressured shot, etc and lands straight at the feet of the now unmarked player. So they're already doing something and cant do everything - unless they dont have a target they are involved with. Then its right to expect them to react.

The DMs (Casemiro, McTom, Eriksen, whoever is playing) dont have those players marked inside the box. And if they do they shouldnt. They should be timing their runs back with the late runs of opponents that are free for cutbacks. This isnt that new btw, it used to happen when Fellaini was playing as a deep midfielder for us too. He would get right back into the box to help defend crosses in the air, but then we'd have nobody to track and deal with the pullbacks around the edge of the box, where your DM's actual responsibility is.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
53,408
Location
Hope, We Lose
It feels like Ten Hag sold the forward press as the magic bullet that solves all problems and the whole squad looks like a fish out of water once its bypassed.
Thats how the forward pressing works even in an ideal situation. You leave massive gaps that wouldnt be there if you are sitting back in a solid shape. You are gambling on success and leaving yourself vulnerable if the opposition are able to play through it, or easier than that can time a longer pass towards a forward player making a run.

So you need to have the result of recovering the ball several times in advanced positions and making the most of it with goals. When you dont have that it hasnt worked and you've left yourself easier to attack against.
 

Gordon Godot

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2016
Messages
1,374
Thats how the forward pressing works even in an ideal situation. You leave massive gaps that wouldnt be there if you are sitting back in a solid shape. You are gambling on success and leaving yourself vulnerable if the opposition are able to play through it, or easier than that can time a longer pass towards a forward player making a run.

So you need to have the result of recovering the ball several times in advanced positions and making the most of it with goals. When you dont have that it hasnt worked and you've left yourself easier to attack against.
Very simplistic take and frankly wrong. City are net left wide open if the initial pass is bypassed. Its not about outscoring someone in a high scoring match. Look at Brighton's first goal, our forward are not pressign at all, Brighton centre backs had time to pick a pass through our lines and then cut through us. Just a mess
 

Vault Dweller

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
6,727
Location
Vault 88, The Commonwealth
Funnily enough, this is something I have to hammer the young lads on my team currently and why I still get decent minutes at my age.

Your job as a midfielder is tracking runs as well. If you're clever enough position yourself to cut off the angles, fair play. It's far easier to just follow the run of the man off the ball and get goalside or in-between the ball and player, though.

Our midfield just don't do it. My hope is Amrabaat should be doing this for us, but the rest need to pull their fingers out their arse and stop ball watching.
Indeed. I play midfield also, and the way teams break and look for the pass into the middle, if you can read the run your opposite number is making and then cut the pass off or jockey him, you can start cutting it out. Obviously, the standard is a million times higher, but I don't see many of our players making tackles or interceptions like that. It's all either brainless or half-arsed movement.
 

Lash

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
12,465
Location
Buckinghamshire
Supports
Millwall, Saint-Etienne
Indeed. I play midfield also, and the way teams break and look for the pass into the middle, if you can read the run your opposite number is making and then cut the pass off or jockey him, you can start cutting it out. Obviously, the standard is a million times higher, but I don't see many of our players making tackles or interceptions like that. It's all either brainless or half-arsed movement.
likewise! The principles remain the same though - it doesn't even take any quality though, it's a bit of concentration and effort. The minimum I would expect for the highest level in the land.
 

Vault Dweller

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
6,727
Location
Vault 88, The Commonwealth
likewise! The principles remain the same though - it doesn't even take any quality though, it's a bit of concentration and effort. The minimum I would expect for the highest level in the land.
Absolutely, it's about hard work and concentration. Too often our lot either hit panic stations and rush around with no thought, or players jog across or back while the opposition make clever runs (sometimes not even at pace!) and score. We concede like this all the time, it is infuriating.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
53,408
Location
Hope, We Lose
Very simplistic take and frankly wrong. City are net left wide open if the initial pass is bypassed. Its not about outscoring someone in a high scoring match. Look at Brighton's first goal, our forward are not pressign at all, Brighton centre backs had time to pick a pass through our lines and then cut through us. Just a mess
City are left open if the press is bypassed. A press isnt a single pass. Speaking of simple here you are.
 

Macca7

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
126
Location
Walney Island
I was saying Saturday how we never score goals from cut backs. With the wingers we have it should be a given that they get to the by line and cut back for an easy goal. Never happens though. We always end up putting a shit cross in or playing it around the box until it gets intercepted.
 

Lash

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
12,465
Location
Buckinghamshire
Supports
Millwall, Saint-Etienne
Absolutely, it's about hard work and concentration. Too often our lot either hit panic stations and rush around with no thought, or players jog across or back while the opposition make clever runs (sometimes not even at pace!) and score. We concede like this all the time, it is infuriating.
I do think that's what managers are getting at that we're easy to play through. An attacker off the ball only needs to run directly forward and they end up wide open. I think that also leads to silly over commitments from players like Martinez, trying to make up for people's and their own mistakes. Creates a sense of panic across the defence and a calm, organised team make light work of it.
 

The Boy

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
4,417
Supports
Brighton and Hove Albion
It's just so easy to score against us like this, we are so bad positionally and our players are so lazy in the defensive transition. The Odegaard one and the 3 from Brighton were especially bad.

It feels like every cutback will get through us and Onana has no chance saving it.
I cant speak for the Arsenal game, but against us your midfield diamond left the wings wide open and allowed us to pull some of your central players out wide and creating space in the middle as well, once we tweaked the way we were playing to play out through your press after about 20 mins it was pretty simple to create the spaces.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,363
Cut backs are a midfield problem and our midfield has been the weakest area of our team for about 15 years. Both the cut backs and allowing teams to stretch us down the channels.

I don't blame Bruno because I want him concentrating on creating but the others, Eriksen and Casemiro don't have the legs and McTominay doesn't have the awareness. By Christmas I'm hoping our midfield 3 will be Bruno, Amrabat and Mainoo. It's not Xavi Busquets and Iniesta but at least there is some balance to it.

When a fresh, motivated world class Casemiro arrived he could do it mostly on his own so it's not an impossible task. It just needs a couple of half competent and fit central midfielders.
 
Last edited:

Vault Dweller

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
6,727
Location
Vault 88, The Commonwealth
I do think that's what managers are getting at that we're easy to play through. An attacker off the ball only needs to run directly forward and they end up wide open. I think that also leads to silly over commitments from players like Martinez, trying to make up for people's and their own mistakes. Creates a sense of panic across the defence and a calm, organised team make light work of it.
Totally agree mate.
 

Erics_Collar

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
3,124
Location
Oireland
We went 4 days without conceding one. That's progress.

If only we had some sort of... midfielder
...but just more....defensive.
 

Big Ben Foster

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
13,096
Location
BR -> MI -> TX
Supports
Also support Vasco da Gama
Do we have any data and analytics staff at the club? Other than the people who gave us a list of 700 RBs and whittled it down to AWB.
 

Holocene

Full Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
1,173
Our midfield has been a problem for longer than I can remember.
 

Giggsy13

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
4,367
Location
Toronto
It would be nice if we could score a few cut back goals instead of conceding them all the time.
 

rajds89

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2022
Messages
1,804
We’ve conceded the same type of goal 5 times now in the last 3 games. What the feck do we do in training? It ain’t defensive scenarios that’s for sure.
 

hobbers

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
28,789
the dan gore, kobe mainoo, hanibal mejbri midfield experience. at least they are young and will run.
Amrabat and Mainoo for sure would be our best defensive unit. Someone who hasnt played and an injured kid but I can still say it with absolute confidence. That's how dire our midfield crop is and has been for a decade.
 

Amar__

Geriatric lover and empath
Joined
Sep 2, 2010
Messages
24,212
Location
Sarajevo
Supports
MK Dons
It would be nice if we could score a few cut back goals instead of conceding them all the time.
For that you need to have smart players who aren't selfish(something that we lack), and play against opposition whose midfielders don't track back.
 

ManUnitedCanuck

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,311
It’s not even just tracking back always. How many guys in the box and they are all ball watching…nobody steps out to pick an attacking player up.
 

GioF

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
260
Location
Cheshire
Defenders just staring at the ball and not pushing back by sprinting and closing the ball down/marking someone. Just pathetic. Waiting for someone else to do it rather than taking it on themselves.

Very selfish group of individuals we have in the squad so no surprise we just fold like a cheap deck chair.