Congestion up front

[Skills]

Anyone else feels we're too congested up front? We seem to have 3 players (2 strikers and usually a CM) trying to break up front, leaving nobody in midfield to actually make the passes or move the ball around. Its maddening to watch Fred (in the first half) and the Bruno in the second half running into the space between our 2 strikers.

First of all, it means there's no room to actually receive the ball up front - because the opposition aren't idiots, and then also put an extra man in that space. But on top of that, it just leaves your 2 CBs and 1 CM trying to actually move the ball around. The RB yesterday Dalot made it all worse, because he refused to provide any width, forcing more players into the same space. We scored when he actually tried to provide some width.

 

[arnie_ni]

Think it was you and I wondering in the match thread why all the cross field switches were going to the 2 number 10s or whatever their position is and not the full backs, who you'd think should be providing all the width, with bruno and rashford picking up gaps between between midfield and defence.

 

[Dan_F]

Yes. The switch at half time left us more exposed to the counter and also completely congested things upfront. It’s something you’d try with 5 minutes to go, not 45. We bypassed the midfield continually because it was just McTominay in there.

 

[Idxomer]

Just observe how often our players seem to run away from the one having a ball.

If you were to drop Pep to be in charge for a couple of games, he would go completely insane.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think things will naturally develop and the formation and starters will settle. From yesterday it’s no surprise you thought that as we started 3 strikers and Bruno in AM thinks he’s a striker so it ended up being 424 just a always happened under Ole.

RR has told Greenwood directly he’s not put enough gym work in yet, Rashford has been very poor recently and Martial is leaving so it’ll be interesting what he does. Ronaldo is actually very good at little touches and building play but we need a lot more quality from the middle ‘2’ of the 222 to allow the strikers to have more influence and Bruno honestly is the biggest problem we have right now. He plays like we’re 0-1 down and it’s the 90th minute as soon as the game kicks off.

 

[joedirt87]

would like to see ralf go for a more balanced approach and stop trying to cram all these super selfish goal scoring forwards (I include Bruno in this group) into the starting lineup, just like Ole did. You wanna play Bruno, play him with Ronaldo up front and let him do the dropping and pressing so Ronaldo can focus on staying up top. Sancho should be starting at one of those AM positions and the other based on what is available Lingard/VDB/Pogba when he returns.

 

[Greck]

Think Rangnick will adjust and eventually use a central advanced player (no 10 or deeper forward) who actually comes toward the ball and maybe one striker who actually provides the short option if he sticks with 2 strikers. Cavani got 3 chances off of just coming short. You don't need two guys stretching play when there's no number 10, kind of defeats the purpose of playing two strikers if the aim is to work the ball. I don't think Rashford knows the role and Ronaldo makes predominantly poacher movements. He might eventually go lone striker but whoever that is still has to be a central figure in passing moves.

edit I also wouldn't take too much from what we saw yesterday. That wasn't the original plan, we started with a 4222 which tbf might have been a mistake, went behind and looked unstable so Rangick had to patch it up by moving strikers all over the pitch. We were left with a lopsided formation. Rashford played 3 different positions, every attacker got shuffled at least once.

 

[Skills]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

 

[Deery]

Knew what the problem was going to be even before I read the tweet, Bruno pushes to far forward.

 

[Skills]

Knew what the problem was going to be even before I read the tweet, Bruno pushes to far forward.

I think the issue is then amplified by how deep we position our full backs and consequently the wingers as well.

Its too easy for the opposition to stay compact because our players in possession are occupying the same zones. Really poor.

 

[bond19821982]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

City data is pure artistic brilliance. So perfect.

 

[Sunny Jim]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

City deployed a false 9 formation as it seems

 

[Skills]

City deployed a false 9 formation as it seems

So did we apparently. Just 2 of them, right on top of each other

Their false 9 is sitting further up the pitch than any our striker.

 

[Gator Nate]

And then there was Burnley, not passing the ball at all.

 

[DWelbz19]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

Second striker Bruno at it again?

 

[Fortitude]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

Made a thread asking the forum if Bruno can play with Ronaldo because it was pretty obvious without the corroborating data that there was a major issue there.

 

[Skills]

Made a thread asking the forum if Bruno can play with Ronaldo because it was pretty obvious without the corroborating data that there was a major issue there.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

From 19/20 (worth remembering this is for the whole season and Bruno only joined in January).

Our best run of form under probably came at the back end of that season. Look at how far up all 3 forwards are. Do you think Sancho makes this worse because he's naturally also looking to drop into get the ball, while MMM of that season were all really comfortable in behind?

 

[Dante]

Bruno's positioning was fine. In a functional team, Ronaldo would have been higher up.

 

[Fortitude]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

From 19/20 (worth remembering this is for the whole season and Bruno only joined in January).

Our best run of form under probably came at the back end of that season. Look at how far up all 3 forwards are. Do you think Sancho makes this worse because he's naturally also looking to drop into get the ball, while MMR of that season were all really comfortable in behind?

With the way we play, yes because nobody overlaps him and stretches the field so your left with a mass concentration of bodies coming central and nothing flanking - how he worked with Hakimi is the way that’s negated whilst giving him ample opportunity to ghost and shadow in the half spaces, which we simply don’t provide and nullify yet another portion of his game.

The roles were more defined in the counter-attacking set up we had and we looked to stretch the pitch vertically and in behind - utilising Rashford’s pace and directness - in a simple and honest fashion that really aimed to exploit any open spaces in behind vacated positions. That switch also really killed Bruno as the open spaces to play into for others to latch onto were mostly gone forcing a more considered game from him, something I have serious doubts he is capable of.

We need fullbacks that present offensive problems and allow opportunism from the attackers whilst giving them the chance to spread out, but also a component midfield to feed them the ball…. It’s problematic on multiple fronts with out personnel.

 

[Smores]

Bruno's positioning was fine. In a functional team, Ronaldo would have been higher up.

Yeah I don't get how with an actual graphic in front of people they still push their narrative.

Bruno isn't any higher than the City and Liverpool midfielders there. It's just Ronaldo and the two wide forwards are a bit deeper. Now that's largely because of our poor buildup which is partly on Bruno yes but it's on the team as a whole.

Good graphics, very interesting to see.

 

[didz]

Bruno's positioning was fine. In a functional team, Ronaldo would have been higher up.

Yep. It's always a bit of a worry when your centre forward is forced to come so deep looking for the ball, particularly when their skillset doesn't really warrant them being in those positions.

Bit of an oddity - of all 10 teams whose pass leader has more than 50 per game, its only us and West Ham for whom that player is not a centre back. In both cases it's our LDM.

Not too sure what that says if anything.. I guess we could send it to de Jong as proof he'll be the main man

 

[Madridista2000]

What about Neymar for United? PSG is willing to get rid of him and he is still a very impressive player. He could work magic at United.

 

[JanK]

What about Neymar for United? PSG is willing to get rid of him and he is still a very impressive player. He could work magic at United.

For Pogba's wages it'd be okay.

 

[arnie_ni]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

You couldn't design city's any better. Perfection, robotic

 

[DWelbz19]

What about Neymar for United? PSG is willing to get rid of him and he is still a very impressive player. He could work magic at United.

Come on now. Neymar’s not moving to England at the age of 30 for the sixth best team in the league.

 

[Madridista2000]

Come on now. Neymar’s not moving to England at the age of 30 for the sixth best team in the league.

He ruined his career by moving from Barcelona to PSG. I am sure he would have won Balon D'Or in Barcelona. He was once the big shiney toy in PSG. Now he is the third wheel.

He could salvage his club career by winning something with United and proving himself in PL.

His Brazil career has been impressive despite not winning WC yet. He could have a couple of good years left in him. He plays very well for Brazil.

 

[tomaldinho1]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

Clubs that use a GK to build and maintain possession couldn’t be more obvious as well

 

[DWelbz19]

He ruined his career by moving from Barcelona to PSG. I am sure he would have won Balon D'Or in Barcelona. He was once the big shiney toy in PSG. Now he is the third wheel.

He could salvage his club career by winning something with United and proving himself in PL.

His Brazil career has been impressive despite not winning WC yet. He could have a couple of good years left in him. He plays very well for Brazil.

He’s still a phenomenal player but he’s very injury prone and I think he’s lost that focus and application in his game at club level. He certainly won’t revive it coming to England

 

[Madridista2000]

He’s still a phenomenal player but he’s very injury prone and I think he’s lost that focus and application in his game at club level. He certainly won’t revive it coming to England

It's just one of the challenges that would be great to follow as football fans. If it happened. Both him and United could revive each other. It would be a spectacle if it succeeded.

 

[kouroux]

And then there was Burnley, not passing the ball at all.

Dycheball

 

[Stig]

06nd2yg4p6491.jpg (2901×4096) (redd.it)

This pass network looks fascinating, but I have no idea how to read it, or what it is telling us. Please can somebody explain it very very simply.

Thank you.

 

[OpenIntrovert]

From the athletic. Our striker and CAM (Ronaldo/Bruno) are almost on top of each other in that pass network. Look how deep our full backs are compared to Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even West Ham

The striker and AM being close to each other is not a big problem as there are times the striker can be marked out and the AM takes over as the next forward. Basically it doesn't mean much unless the graphic shows that the striker is not receiving any passes at all. Congestion is also intended rather than a problem, as the idea is to keep the space compact between all the forward-playing players (including midfield and full backs). Creating chances has not been an issue for us, rather it is decision-making in front of the goal.

Talking about the graphic, I am not a fan of such isolated data, especially when you don't have the full context (player's abilities, type of preferred play and type of tactics used and type of opponent's tactics). The only key inference you can make is that the passing distribution has been quite even amongst all the possible forward-moving players and they are making full use of their positions to stretch the opposition. Otherwise you can't make any significant inference from the other data, especially the Pass Value and Number of Passes, since that is dependent on the attributes of the players and the style of play. Our play is very direct (less number of passes to reach the goal) and it was always intentional to make Bruno the main creator, so it is not surprising to see those stats. Unless we are looking to have more possession or we want the creativity to be shared by other players, we can't really see any problems based on the data.

 

[OpenIntrovert]

06nd2yg4p6491.jpg (2901×4096) (redd.it)

This pass network looks fascinating, but I have no idea how to read it, or what it is telling us. Please can somebody explain it very very simply.

Thank you.

The pass network basically describes the overall position of the players and the number of passes between the player and other receiving players. The circle basically describes the passing contribution of the player, the more passes the player makes or receives, the bigger the circle. The lines between each of the circles becomes wider if there is a increase in number of passes between both players.

The data below the graphic basically describes the major formation used and the number of passes and the key passing channels (e.g. Fred to Bruno to Ronaldo).

You can understand the following details from the network :
1) Players positioning during possession - Basically being compact and further forward up the pitch can indicate a high line which in turn, also can mean more options for attack.
2) Passing distribution - If you see a lot of big circles and wider lines between the circles, it is highly likely that the passes are evenly spread during attack, which may mean that we are trying to spread the play using multiple channels.
3) Passing channels - Who typically sends the key passes and receives them?
4) Number of passes - Hard to make a inference as it may describe a few details such as style of play (more direct, less passes) or inability to keep possession.

 

[Stig]

The pass network basically describes the overall position of the players and the number of passes between the player and other receiving players. The circle basically describes the passing contribution of the player, the more passes the player makes or receives, the bigger the circle. The lines between each of the circles becomes wider if there is a increase in number of passes between both players.

The data below the graphic basically describes the major formation used and the number of passes and the key passing channels (e.g. Fred to Bruno to Ronaldo).

You can understand the following details from the network :
1) Players positioning during possession - Basically being compact and further forward up the pitch can indicate a high line which in turn, also can mean more options for attack.
2) Passing distribution - If you see a lot of big circles and wider lines between the circles, it is highly likely that the passes are evenly spread during attack, which may mean that we are trying to spread the play using multiple channels.
3) Passing channels - Who typically sends the key passes and receives them?
4) Number of passes - Hard to make a inference as it may describe a few details such as style of play (more direct, less passes) or inability to keep possession.

Thank you

So what do you deduce about our passing ; city's passing and Burnleys passing from the data.

Thanks.