The issue here is that, even without the headline, trump’s dog whistling, the current state of political rhetoric, the police state in the US has its roots in white supremacy and the klan. Not addressing it at every turn does little to help dismantle it.
Cop in America doing a bad job, again
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I hope you don’t think I am pointing it out because you quoted me earlier. It has nothing to do with it.
I dont know what the surefire answer to Trumpism is. Hell, it doesnt seem like anyone has an answer yet that is known to truly work - its quite a new phenomenon. That said, it seems like at least a feasible strategy to me, to try to simply not give any ammunition to them. Stick to the facts, to things that cannot be denied and cannot be sensationalised or branded as bias. As the old saying goes - dont argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Trump is the most experienced idiot on the planet, pretty much. If you try to play him at his own game you will lose.
it is a setup. If they are starting with 3rd degree murder, they might end up giving him manslaughter at best. That means he will end up getting 3-5 year probation with a slap on the wrist.
Okay, now we’ve got that out of the way and you’ve been proven right. Congratulations.
If we focus our attentions on the Floyd killing or the other killings where It was uniformed patrol officers shooting these unarmed men dead with handguns, responding to low priority calls and routine stops.
How would taking away tank guns and grenades, assist with tackling the specific above problem?
And do you think your solution of stripping down the weaponry of the police force is even remotely realistic when civilians are allowed to own dozens of weapons?
Looking at it practically and not idealistically, he isn't going to get convicted for first degree simply from the fact he's a copper and the victim warranted arrest regardless of how minor the crime is relative to how things played out. Even if the offcier's history paints the picture of a heavy handed racist POS, because the institutions that will prosecute are the structures he is a part of and they protect their own.
Which is why I for one am pleased for the pressures these riots are creating. Without it you can bet there'd be feckal happening, and it also needs to be apparent that if justice is not served there will be repercussions. Even if justice in this case means he get's a significantly lower sentence than he deserves.
The people of Davis near where I live successfully mobilised and forced the chief of police to change plans to buy an MRAP vehicle. The people rightfully pointed out the absurdity of a university town having the need for such a thing. This is the same town where that asshole cop famously pepper sprayed students who were peacefully demonstarting.
It really depends on who you ask. According to me, the solution starts with recognizing that cops are actually THE ISSUE. And even without trump, innocent black folks and other minorities are going to be killed with no repercussions. They are over funded, over militarized and every time you try to hold them accountable it results in zilch. And to make matters worse, they have roots in white supremacy and the klan. Something which folks are afraid to recognize, let alone fix it.
Secondly, it is crucial that we recognize the works of people like Ruth Gilmore Wilson, Michelle Alexander, Eve Ewing, Heather Thompson, and more people like them who have spent their entire life studying these issues going all the way back to the 70s. Because a future with little or no police is actually the solution. And thirdly, mostly importantly, just recognizing the fact that cops are actually kinda useless when it comes to maintaining law and order. Because the ones actually causing the most damage to society in this day and age, are white collar criminals. Not poor minorities who’ve spent their entire life riddled with poverty and a system that barely recognizes them.
This is wildly idealistic and simply impractical. Whether it is right or wrong unfortunately doesn’t matter, it’s simply not going to happen any more than the leaders of Europe asking nicely if the US will just return to colony status.
To humour you a little though, you are talking about a country with the most gun-pride in the world. I’m not really sure what you expect to happen if you just take away the police, but it won’t be pretty.Hell, asking them to give up their guns might just be less viable than the previous paragraph.
Is this even a real comment? Think about what you’re saying.
Try to remember that for all the bad headlines and all the bad things you see about STREET POLICE. Remember that they are only part of the structure.
There are officers who you do not see, who do not go out and interact with the public.
Faces who you do not see, officers who investigate murder, rape, child abuse, domestic violence, fraud, sex trafficking, people trafficking, child trafficking, genital mutilation, honour based violence, fraud, money laundering, terrorism, forensic officers, officers who investigate other officers, schools officers. These people are all police officers. Who at one time or another may have worked the streets.
Do not make the mistake of thinking the police officers you see on the street are the be and end all of the police as an institution. Because that sort of thought process is what leads to a quite frankly outrageous comment like “little or no police is the solution”. Can you imagine what would happen in America of all places if people didn’t think there’d be consequences for their actions.
Looking back at the George Floyd situation, it really is just baffling stuff. All they had to do was just...not kill the guy. Like, literally just don't kill him. Yet these crazy cops managed to get it done.
They just had to get rid of the cop who had more a half a dozen complaints against him and George Floyd would be alive today. It really is that simple.
If anything, we are long overdue for the changes that you think are too idealistic. These are folks who’ve been studying the issue since the 70s. But I am not really surprised. If you can’t bring yourself to recognize the role of white supremacy and the klan and their contributions to the current state of police state, then you’re part of the problem.
Over a forged fecking cheque. Christ
You are sounding more and more like a tinfoil conspiracy theorist I’m afraid. I think there are plenty of issues in the U.S,and some reform is definitely needed. What you are suggesting however is lunacy, and simply not going to happen (thankfully).
I mean, that last sentence.... Jesus.
Even if it was a forged cheque, it doesn’t even come close to justifying the violence inflicted on him. It is mostly BS and you know it.Over a forged fecking cheque. Christ
Why are you randomly talking about me not recognising the klan and white supremacy when not once during the entirety of our discussion has it been mentioned or brought up.You really do have an odd posting style.
- Make a flawed point
- dodge answering any questions about said flawed point
- in response randomly bring up another problem subject and accuse the poster of not recognising it
- rinse repeat
Anyway I’m done . I think you seriously suggesting there should be no police at all was the last straw.
Honestly mate, I was referring to Walrus’s earlier post. Feel free to ignore it. It’s not like everyone in this thread is calling BS on the militarization of the police state here in the US
With all due respect I think you're conflating the good will of a collective group of individuals in law enforcement with the institutions they serve as if they are one and the same: they're not.
U.S has a long history of institutional racism, so to put it to a few bad apples is naive or disingenuous. It's even worse to suggest it's better to have this current system than none at all. What kinda mental gymnastics is that.
Absolutely. So stupid and he wasn’t even kicking up a fuss about it. He was calm the whole time and they killed him. Makes my blood boil.
Pretty much, everyone around him were screaming that the officer was choking him. But he went ahead and killed him anyways.
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I don't think he indicated otherwise.
To be honest mate, I haven’t really commented much on the militarisation of the police, beyond saying that I don’t think it’s a good idea to disarm the police in a nation where everyone else IS armed. I just think some of your ideas are unrealistic, and I always take exception to the “agree with this or you are part of the problem” lines that people trot out.
I don't know if someone post it
But, is legal to arrest reporters?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...air-minneapolis-protests-george-floyd-killing
But, is legal to arrest reporters?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...air-minneapolis-protests-george-floyd-killing
https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing
This has been made available for free as an e-book for anyone interested, thought it might be worth sharing in light of recent developments and some comments on here
This has been made available for free as an e-book for anyone interested, thought it might be worth sharing in light of recent developments and some comments on here
Firstly , who’s talking about “a few bad apples” that wasn’t even remotely my point. It’s clearly not a few bad apples and I haven’t mentioned or implied it once. Let’s not start going down that road.
The poster I replied to (helps sometimes to read an entire convo) suggested police in the states should not exist. My point was policing goes beyond the uniformed officers you see at street level. And I should stress this isn’t an invitation to start accusing me of going down the ‘bad apple’ routes. But you must remember there are so many victims of heinous crimes out there that you do not see. That do not get publicised. That do not make the papers. And with no police it’s unimaginable what would happen to these people.
Secondly they are one, they are not separate. Most of the officers who go on to take on those roles I mentioned started off as street cops and liaise with street cops on a daily basis. I’m saying this because I know it. You have been badly misinformed if you think the opposite.
Being a uniformed officer is actually seen as the lowest and weakest form of policing within the police force, partly due to the fact it’s the area in policing that attracts the most problem individuals.
Thirdly, not really sure what you’re going on about in terms of “mental gymnastics”. The current system is clearly not good and needs drastic changes but to suggest the ideal alternative is no cops at all is possibly the most retarded thing I’ve seen on this forum.
There were 16,000 murders in the US in 2018, to suggest that a country where any Tom, Dick and Harry is allowed a gun would be better served with no police at all is absolutely mental. And the “mental gymnastics” you’d have to use to suggest otherwise is actually quite scary. Unless of course you and entropy want a nation of anarchy. In which case you would be right. But I don’t think that’s what most people want
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It's really frustrating people just ignore this point using whataboutisms about some good cops doing good work. Also the fact that, this is the goto profession for those rasict wannabe hard men, makes it even worst.
Thanks for sharing. Presumably it’s a US-centric take on the failings of modern policing? I ask because many nations have what could be considered ‘functional’ police institutions (Scandinavia, New Zealand, perhaps even Australia etc), so I’m wondering whether the author addressed that in the book. I acknowledge the author references restorative justice, harm reduction and legalisation etc in the blurb, but these concepts don’t replace policing - they can, and often do, exist together.
I agree it goes beyond the uniformed officers, which at the crux of it was exactly my point. The institution of law enforcement, which in the past - due to policy of the state - have enforced racist policies. It came from beyond the people me or others interact with.
As I mentioned, you are individualising the experiences of good officers as if it is representative of the overall. Obviously isn't true.
I didn't suggest anything. I'm just saying that suggesting the status quo where minorities are murdered like fecking nothing, is better than a lawless land is a lazy extremity of an example.
Not read it myself yet so I’m afraid I can’t answer your second point but yes I gather it’s heavily focused on the US, certainly will be interesting to see how, if at all, its analysis factors in other states though
So actually you’re talking about institutional racism, gotcha. But this wasn’t a point I was addressing. If you wish to discuss institutional racism in the police force and how it can be combatted it’s better to start a new conversation about it and I’ve got plenty of ideas but what you’ve done is you’ve replied to a post I’ve made to someone else in relation to something else and then mis interpreted my comments and then taken them into a whole other discussion. People keep doing this in this thread and it’s kind of annoying. It’s bad form.
And that wasn’t my example, another poster stated there should be no police at all. I was responding to that. Mate, please just try and read the entire convo.
I hadn't realised you expanded on your initial post. I'm not one to dance around conversation as I don't have the patience so i do apologise if I did mis-read/understand at any point.
But your first and second paragraph is generally the sentiment that policing is more than the uniformed officers we see [and they are at the bottom of the policing heirachy] and that to go up the chain every officer would have had to deal with heinous crimes that the public are not always made aware of. Tbh, none of that addresses the fact that there are elements in law enforcement that allow racist murderous pricks to do their thing. Of course there are good officers at every level, but my point was that the structure itself is fecked, which you did get the jist of in the end - and you're right - it is a whole other convo. One that is completely relevant to this though.
The final paragraph is just a misundestanding as neither of us feel that we'd be better off with no law enforcement at all. It's hardly a silver lining though.
No worries, my abruptness probably didn’t help but it was more out of having to deal with other posters in here who are completely incapable of having a normal conversation on subjects like these. It’s like if you don’t possess the same extreme view of them you’re a KKK neo nazi supporter.
As for improving the state of policing, here’s some things I’d think would be realistic and achievable quite easily. A few of these things have already been adapted in the U.K.
- Adapt something similar to the ‘Rooney rule’ Put more black people into the higher positions of policing. The percentage of black people in the different American states needs to be resembled in that police force.
- Do the same with the justice system. Judges, jurors, prosecutors.
- Holding Officers to account for their actions. It is clear there is too much leniency and too much emphasis on ‘self defence’ when these Killings go to trial. It’s time to start making an example out of these officers.
- Restricted duties for poorly performing uniformed officers. If you have a dozen complaints against you with a number of those relating to race, the chances are you’re doing something wrong. Take these officers off the street indefinitely and shove them in an office.
- Bodyworn cameras. What strikes me is that somehow still in the states so many of their Officers don’t wear body worn cameras. It’s ridiculous. This is such a massive tool.
- Recruitment process. Some states you become an officer and get handed a gun in less that 4 months, what the feck is that?
Nobody joins the police and becomes racist, so they need a process implemented where they weed these people out at the recruitment phase. How they do that I don’t know but social media is a good place to start. Racists generally can’t hide, they get exposed and their beliefs are out there on the internet, the key is to find them. (See that racist Dortmund fan who got exposed in the riots thread)
- Probably the hardest one, but encourage and get more black cops. They’ve had pushes but apparently those have failed, well push harder. Go into their communities, talk to them. Let them see there’s a bigger world to policing then what appears.
For a lot of the black community it is frowned upon to join the police but the logic to it is simple. More black officers out there going to calls involving George Floyd. Less likely Officer Racist turns up instead and kills him.
And their collective silence is deafening, every fecking time. I and many others have no problem with "street police", as you describe them, using force or even deadly force to protect the public. But to treat every interaction as a life or death situation as they often do is cowardice. It wasn't too long ago that they had a shot out on a highway in the middle of the day using civilian vehicles with terrified passengers as cover. Where are all these other officers in their condemnation? Crickets. Thry should be speaking to their unions asking them make public statements condemning these actions.
Guys, it’s really important we recognize that street cops aren’t the problem here. They aren’t running around wearing riot gear and assaulting peaceful protestors. I mean..besides the video below or any other video from the protests. But street cops are the good guys here. Clearly, they’re not part of the problem.
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Nah, odds are there'd just be another Derek Chauvin ready to take advantage of a similar situation. The fact that Chauvin doesn't get off him while there's other 3 police offers involved and someone is filming the whole thing paints a pretty grim picture of a much larger problem.
Banana republic with orangehead at the wheal. Country is broken on fundamental level beyond the repair now.
Who'll likely get a 2nd term.
@entropy
I see you’ve got multiple people in multiple threads telling you your posting style is trash. Just consider that advice and like I said before, read over what you post before you hit reply.
Do you think it’s likely a police union will come out and condemn an officer on the back of an incident that hasn’t even gone to trial and label him a racist ? How do you even prove that ones a racist? You literally cannot unless they make reference to race at some point during the act. Do you see what I’m getting at here? And what tends to happen because of their stupidly grey area on ‘self defence’ is officers aren’t found guilty.
Again do you think it’s likely a Union will come out and condemn the officer when a court have said he’s innocent?
And I see a lot of people imply that individual officers within the force don’t speak out. That may well be the case and we saw it with the Floyd incident, but if officers not on scene spoke out how would we even know?
In any other job if an individual wanted to make a public display of dissatisfaction with colleagues or their employer they’d either go on strike or do a large protest. Police cannot do these for obvious reasons, they’re unlikely to go on social media and do it, which means the only method would be to report matters internally and such reports wouldn’t get disclosed to the public anyway.
The Floyd incident was clear and obvious and on this occasion it was quite easy for them to publicly fire all the involved officers and a police union also released this on Twitter.
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Unfortunately it is never this clear and obvious. This is why I mentioned bodyworn cameras in my previous post. They’re so important for transparency. Had members of the public not been recording you can bet those officers would have concocted all kinds of stories about him “coming right for them” or “reaching into his waistband”.
I think people’s hearts are in the right place but their ideas whilst commendable are often overly ambitious and unrealistic and whilst that might sound disheartening you’re talking about a culture and a way of living that isn’t just ingrained in their police force but in their whole country, ‘right to defend myself with deadly force’ ‘free speech’ ‘innocent till proven guilty’ ‘ my right to own and use a gun’ them being overly patriotic which ties into ‘sticking together no matter what’ . The treatement of black people as second class citizens.
Sometimes the simplest and easily doable changes can have a huge impact. Body worn camera would fall under that category. And at this point in time serious questions need to be asked why there are still American officers not equipped with them. We know for certain it isn’t lack of funds. Just imagine an America where every single police interaction is recorded from the view of the officer and can be viewed and played back within twenty minutes of the incident.
I see you’ve got multiple people in multiple threads telling you your posting style is trash. Just consider that advice and like I said before, read over what you post before you hit reply.
You’re right but in theory how would you work this? It’s not as simple as it seems. Consider that a lot of these incidents start and end with a prolonged trial afterwards. Even though me and you see it as clear cut, the justice system certainly don’t.
Do you think it’s likely a police union will come out and condemn an officer on the back of an incident that hasn’t even gone to trial and label him a racist ? How do you even prove that ones a racist? You literally cannot unless they make reference to race at some point during the act. Do you see what I’m getting at here? And what tends to happen because of their stupidly grey area on ‘self defence’ is officers aren’t found guilty.
Again do you think it’s likely a Union will come out and condemn the officer when a court have said he’s innocent?
And I see a lot of people imply that individual officers within the force don’t speak out. That may well be the case and we saw it with the Floyd incident, but if officers not on scene spoke out how would we even know?
In any other job if an individual wanted to make a public display of dissatisfaction with colleagues or their employer they’d either go on strike or do a large protest. Police cannot do these for obvious reasons, they’re unlikely to go on social media and do it, which means the only method would be to report matters internally and such reports wouldn’t get disclosed to the public anyway.
The Floyd incident was clear and obvious and on this occasion it was quite easy for them to publicly fire all the involved officers and a police union also released this on Twitter.
...
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Unfortunately it is never this clear and obvious. This is why I mentioned bodyworn cameras in my previous post. They’re so important for transparency. Had members of the public not been recording you can bet those officers would have concocted all kinds of stories about him “coming right for them” or “reaching into his waistband”.
I think people’s hearts are in the right place but their ideas whilst commendable are often overly ambitious and unrealistic and whilst that might sound disheartening you’re talking about a culture and a way of living that isn’t just ingrained in their police force but in their whole country, ‘right to defend myself with deadly force’ ‘free speech’ ‘innocent till proven guilty’ ‘ my right to own and use a gun’ them being overly patriotic which ties into ‘sticking together no matter what’ . The treatement of black people as second class citizens.
Sometimes the simplest and easily doable changes can have a huge impact. Body worn camera would fall under that category. And at this point in time serious questions need to be asked why there are still American officers not equipped with them. We know for certain it isn’t lack of funds. Just imagine an America where every single police interaction is recorded from the view of the officer and can be viewed and played back within twenty minutes of the incident.