Coronavirus Champions League - QF - DVG7 vs Himmanv

[GodShaveTheQueen]

.........................................................DVG7........................................................................................................HIMMANV

TEAM DVG7

I love the opposition. So my write up will be a little different.

The problem: Garrincha will tear Marcelo a new one
The counter: Garrincha will not do too much defensively and with my teams ability to keep the ball and draw players in, Marcelo will be given a lot of space to be just as influential

The Problem: Keane and Davids are joined by Franz Beckenbauer. Thats devastating
The solution: Triangles, the kind my midfield 3 plus messi are the best in history at. Ball retention will be key here, without having to worry about any elite level of a goalthreat

The Problem: Beckenbauer is about the only player in history who can have a shout against IMO , the best player of all time in his ideal position
The solution: This is Messi, with a team built to get the absolute best out of him (the supporting attacking cast is better than he had to work with from 08-12 in an attacking sense) so I think all things considered, i'd still back Messi to come out on top here. He's simply unstoppable in my eyes

This game reminds me of p-nuts thread a while back where you build a team and then the next person builds one to beat it. Himannv lost two superstars but in return, gained the potential kryptonite to peak messi and the best right winger of all time. The only issue I have is i'm not sure how well his attack would actually function, its hard to picture.

I have no idea how this will go to be honest, so good luck to my opponent.

TEAM HIMMANV

Attack:

• Czibor and Garrincha are key to my attack and their focus is on beating their man and either creating chances for others or scoring themselves.
• Villa occupies the CBs, runs in behind them and gets on the end of passes, but he also creates space for other attackers.

Midfield:

• Don't think I need to say much here. Keane and Davids put their stamp on the game with their energy and influence all over the pitch.
• Beckenbauer takes this midfield to another level. He's playing in his best position IMO where he can truly run this game, while occasionally slotting back into defence if really needed.

Defence:

• This is a solid defence, which importantly is quite good on the ball and can create chances by passing out from the back.
• They are well shielded by an excellent midfield.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I don't think anyone would disagree to this being the game of the draft so far. Fecking game on!

Good luck @DVG7 @Himannv

 

[Himannv]

Good luck @DVG7

 

[Himannv]

Going to start off by talking about where my team might be able to take advantage of my opponent's defence.

The fullbacks:

• Garrincha is a bit of a nightmare for Marcelo here and he doesn't get too much help from his team either because they're just setup to play a different kind of football game.
• In my view things don't get much easier on the other flank with Suurbier up against Czibor. Once again Suubier doesn't get much protection on that flank.
• With Davids and Keane working behind them, Czibor and Garrincha are free to take the attack to their fullbacks and will certainly be very hard to play against.

The centrebacks:

• I love Godin and he's a great defender, but this is not the system for him IMO. As has been pointed out in previous matches, he's at his best in a defensive team with players who are defensively committed to a system. In a tiki-taka kind of setup he has to play in a higher line than usual and he has to deal with David Villa running in behind him.
• Koeman is great as an attacking CB, but as a defensive CB I don't rate him quite as highly. In a setup where the fullbacks are defensively suspect, I feel he has too much defensive pressure on him and it's far from ideal.

 

[Moby]

The thing with going with a theme like tiki taka is that you really have to fully commit to it, especially Pep's Barca where the entire team including GK had to be on the same wavelength and function as one unit, otherwise things could collapse.

In this case, Godin massively sticks out like a sore thumb in that team, given he belongs to pretty much the other end of the spectrum tactically. And he holds a pretty crucial position which can be exposed badly. It's the downside of constructing a team with such a specific playing style that you cannot compromise in any position. I also have a bit of concern with Ronaldinho and Messi together, with Iniesta in that zone as well it could cause congestion. Villa/Henry/Pedro had a specific task of being the outlet while the midfield and Messi saw the bulk of the possession, Dinho in a role like that would not be the peak phenomenal wizard that he was.

Not that much for the other team, looks solid and a good platform for Garrincha to shine. He looks like the main man in attack in there and that's where he was at his best, he did not need other GOATs around him to shine and was well capable of carrying the whole attack. He will be against that Marcelo-Godin axis which is a worry in my opinion and could have a great game here. VVD probably the one who is added to this pool a bit too soon and needs to prove himself for a longer duration.

Voting for Himannv based on that plus the fact that Barca's biggest strength was their midfield and they couldn't have imagined a worse possible opponent than what they have. Kaiser, Davids and Keano is simply not going to give up and concede the midfield battle whatsoever, there's a great balance of out and out energy, stamina and athleticism, as well as leadership, big game ability, tactical intelligence and awareness and tenacity. Not to say they will completely stop that Barca juggernaut from moving the ball around but give them a great deal of competition and generally not let them settle.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@DVG7

I think you should have gone for younger Messi on the RW instead of the False 9 Messi.

Dinho-------Rensenbrink-------Messi
------Iniesta-------------------Xavi----------
------------------Busquets-------------------

I have never liked Robben on the right with Messi as the false 9 and I am not sure if Messi's false 9 role will bring the best out of Ronaldinho.

With both being on either sides of the pitch, Rensenbrink as the No.9 doing what Etoo used to do at Barca, I'd have liked it a lot more.

I also don't like Koeman in a tiki taka high line setup and made a long post on this in one of my games.

@Himannv

I think you should have gone for Amoros as the LB and Bossis as the RB.

Garrincha will hardly ever link with Amoros, so his attacking contribution would be almost none. I can see him link well with Czibor though.

On the defensive side as well, I'd have preferred the defensive minder Bossis to face the dangerous Ronaldinho-Marcelo flank rather than Amoros.

Other than that, its a solid side.

That being said, I don't think its a straight forward win for Himmanv. They'll have to grind out a win and if the game was to be decided by a few moments of pure magic, I'd bank on team DVG7. Only one winner in the tactical battle though.

Lets see how the discussion goes, will vote after I hear the arguments,

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't think anyone would disagree to this being the game of the draft so far. Fecking game on!

Good luck @DVG7 @Himannv

Disagree.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Disagree.

Oops.

 

[Gio]

Cracking game this. Love both midfields. Beautiful addition in Koeman.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I guess im the only one that doesnt rate dvg team
Thought it was bad first round but this is somehow even worse.

 

[Gio]

Van Dijk and Godin probably in the wrong teams. Still sometimes Barca/Spain needed somebody no nonsense who could do all the defensive fundamentals, particularly valuable for handling any direct balls or set-pieces.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I also don't like Koeman in a tiki taka high line setup and made a long post on this in one of my games.

Quoting the post below, in case anyone wants to check it out.

Ronald Koeman in a tiki-taka setup - Genius or Blunder?

 

[Physiocrat]

Quoting the post below, in case anyone wants to check it out.

I can only see the title, not the full post

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I can only see the title, not the full post

Yea I didn't want to spam the thread, you can click on the quote and go to that match thread for the post. Or you can check below.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/road-trip-draft-2-sf-2mufc0-vs-gstq.450484/#post-24678395

 

[Physiocrat]

Yea I didn't want to spam the thread, you can click on the quote and go to that match thread for the post. Or you can check below.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/road-trip-draft-2-sf-2mufc0-vs-gstq.450484/#post-24678395

Ah, I didn't realise your name was the link. I thought it was supposed to be the bolded title

 

[DVG7]

I guess im the only one that doesnt rate dvg team
Thought it was bad first round but this is somehow even worse.

Shut the feck up and leave the thread with shite like this.

 

[DVG7]

I think the stage is set for Iniesta to shine in this game as much as anyone, and we all know his MOTM record in big games. With Messi dropping deep it becomes a bit of a numbers game in midfield in my favour, with Kaiser presumably being the one dedicated to dealing with the little magician. Ronaldinho in his prime has Amoros on toast, so they’ll constantly be doubling up on him with Bergomi so it’s only natural that space opens up where Iniesta thrives.

Keane and David’s works on paper, but in reality against this team they will be doing a lot of chasing (of course they are good at it) but the probability of a yellow card for both of them is pretty high and for one of them it’s almost certain, and the threat of a red would take away from their game massively. David’s and zidane were pretty well known for throwing their toys out the pram when the going got tough, Keane is a whole different level.

I don’t mind Van Dijk in an all time draft, but I feel like he won’t really have much say on this game. He would be giving the ball to kaiser and letting him spray the passes around, and in a false 9 messi plus robben cutting in, he hasn’t really dealt with that level of quality before.

 

[DVG7]

Shut the feck up and leave the thread with shite like this.

edit: by shite like this I mean say something constructive or nothing at all. You won’t have me going into your threads to tell you I think your teams worse than the last round and that I don’t rate it.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

If you think my team is shit then say its shit i really dont mind.
Was planning to go into sdetails after as i didnt have time then.

 

[Himannv]

I had Dinho and Messi in the first round obviously and I didn't play the false 9 version of Messi for a reason. I spent a fair amount of time watching Ronaldinho and Messi play together and just Ronaldinho in general because it was just so fecking entertaining.

Dinho tended to drive through the middle quite often as shown in the below graphic. He had Eto'o occupying the CBs and also importantly Giuly making regular direct runs between the lines at some pace and either occupying a defender or simply running through. His through ball was just ideal for Giuly on many occasions, perfectly weighted for his pace. Alternatively, he made use of the space created by Eto'o to attack by himself.

For me, Dinho doesn't get this kind of support from F9 Messi as he's mostly stationary in the hole.

F9 Messi is at his best when the wide forwards are moving constantly and offering options + taking defenders away from him. For me, he doesn't get this kind of support from either Dinho or Robben as the peak versions of those players also rely on players who work hard and move off the ball around/ahead of them.

Robben, on the other hand, is at his best when cutting into the middle from the right and taking a fairly accurate shot off his left. He relies on the likes of Lewandowski occupying the CBs and creating space for him. In general I see him somewhat working with Cruyff as Cruyff is more mobile off the ball and is constantly shifting positions and dragging people about, but Messi is a lot more stationary and is used to the wide forwards not coming towards him but moving in a more diagonal route, either playing him in or giving him the option to run into the box and get on the end of a pass.

As a result, the front three are all somewhat stuck without a player who works hard for them and gets the best out of them.

 

[DVG7]

I had Dinho and Messi in the first round obviously and I didn't play the false 9 version of Messi for a reason. I spent a fair amount of time watching Ronaldinho and Messi play together and just Ronaldinho in general because it was just so fecking entertaining.

Dinho tended to drive through the middle quite often as shown in the below graphic. He had Eto'o occupying the CBs and also importantly Giuly making regular direct runs between the lines at some pace and either occupying a defender or simply running through. His through ball was just ideal for Giuly on many occasions, perfectly weighted for his pace. Alternatively, he made use of the space created by Eto'o to attack by himself.

For me, Dinho doesn't get this kind of support from F9 Messi as he's mostly stationary in the hole.

F9 Messi is at his best when the wide forwards are moving constantly and offering options + taking defenders away from him. For me, he doesn't get this kind of support from either Dinho or Robben as the peak versions of those players also rely on players who work hard and move off the ball around/ahead of them.

Robben, on the other hand, is at his best when cutting into the middle from the right and taking a fairly accurate shot off his left. He relies on the likes of Lewandowski occupying the CBs and creating space for him. In general I see him somewhat working with Cruyff as Cruyff is more mobile off the ball and is constantly shifting positions and dragging people about, but Messi is a lot more stationary and is used to the wide forwards not coming towards him but moving in a more diagonal route, either playing him in or giving him the option to run into the box and get on the end of a pass.

As a result, the front three are all somewhat stuck without a player who works hard for them and gets the best out of them.

have you ever seen thierry Henry’s analysis of Guardiolas tactics? Basically in the final third, they were told to “just play”. Doesn’t take any kind of football knowledge to know that this team will embody that better than most. With Marcelo getting forward, id argue conditions are even better for Ronaldinho in particular to shine.

 

[Himannv]

have you ever seen thierry Henry’s analysis of Guardiolas tactics? Basically in the final third, they were told to “just play”. Doesn’t take any kind of football knowledge to know that this team will embody that better than most. With Marcelo getting forward, id argue conditions are even better for Ronaldinho in particular to shine.

I've watched a fair bit of Dinho and I don't think he ever really bothered whether his fullback was overlapping or aiding the attack. He was always looking forward and heading towards goal, dribbling himself or feeding a player further ahead of him. It's why I had Bossis behind him in place of Abidal.

 

[DVG7]

I've watched a fair bit of Dinho and I don't think he ever really bothered whether his fullback was overlapping or aiding the attack. He was always looking forward and heading towards goal, dribbling himself or feeding a player further ahead of him. It's why I had Bossis behind him in place of Abidal.

Ronaldinho playing the way he does (which is a GOAT left forward) is hardly a bad thing here. When he does link up with Messi, Messi has a significantly better version of alba making his way down the wing.

I think possession is likely to favour me here, and there’s no way my boys don’t unlock your defence, and no way your side doesn’t rack up some yellow cards.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Here you go @DVG7

When you said you going to the muppet mode beam and myself assumed you are gunning for Cristiano but i said we are probably going to take him so i hoped you go for Dinho instead, and you went there.

You have the best midfield that ever played the game but that attack is probably one of the worst even if the players as individuals are great. We saw what happened with Alexis and Ibrahimovic, two players that didnt want to sacrifice themself for the benefit of the team. For Messi to shine, hmm not let me rephrase is as that Messi would shine in any system and in any role. For Messi to be in the best ever form which he easily was in that period he as everyone ever in a team sport needs help. Three geniuses behind him gave him the platform but he needs help from the 2 partners up front. They have to be happy to play without the ball, make endless runs without the ball that will unsettle defence and open up space for Messi to exploit. They also have to be great defensive wise as the only way for them to be successful with the players that had was to win the ball quickly as defence was exposed. In that specific segment id buy Robben efforts but Dinho is an awful fit while on the offensive front both are one of the worst possible fits.
Dinho and Messi love each other though so them as pair id probably buy in some other system though also dont think it would be possible to see both versions at the ultimate best.

Then we get to defence, both fullbacks all out attack basically while you need one that will attack and the other that can provide balance and security at the back.
Godin i defended often that he can play in normal systems not just heavy defensive ones but high line in tiki taka is way too much. Fergie's United for example id be happy with, Pep's Barca not really.
Koeman im not sure, share some concerns with scrappy but reckon he can do it to a similar level of Pique, problem is i dont rate Pique.
Taking into consideration fullbacks as well i reckon having Koeman at the back will do more harm then good.

 

[Synco]

I had Dinho and Messi in the first round obviously and I didn't play the false 9 version of Messi for a reason. I spent a fair amount of time watching Ronaldinho and Messi play together and just Ronaldinho in general because it was just so fecking entertaining.

Dinho tended to drive through the middle quite often as shown in the below graphic. He had Eto'o occupying the CBs and also importantly Giuly making regular direct runs between the lines at some pace and either occupying a defender or simply running through. His through ball was just ideal for Giuly on many occasions, perfectly weighted for his pace. Alternatively, he made use of the space created by Eto'o to attack by himself.

For me, Dinho doesn't get this kind of support from F9 Messi as he's mostly stationary in the hole.

F9 Messi is at his best when the wide forwards are moving constantly and offering options + taking defenders away from him. For me, he doesn't get this kind of support from either Dinho or Robben as the peak versions of those players also rely on players who work hard and move off the ball around/ahead of them.

Robben, on the other hand, is at his best when cutting into the middle from the right and taking a fairly accurate shot off his left. He relies on the likes of Lewandowski occupying the CBs and creating space for him. In general I see him somewhat working with Cruyff as Cruyff is more mobile off the ball and is constantly shifting positions and dragging people about, but Messi is a lot more stationary and is used to the wide forwards not coming towards him but moving in a more diagonal route, either playing him in or giving him the option to run into the box and get on the end of a pass.

As a result, the front three are all somewhat stuck without a player who works hard for them and gets the best out of them.

Well presented argument, first of all. But I think peak Robben (mainly thinking Guardiola days) was more varied and flexible than that. I think his interaction with F9 Messi could be really good. Messi himself is painted a bit too schematic as well, imo.

But I agree with the criticism of Dinho / F9 Messi, as I think they'd be better off when Messi plays more to the right side, giving more room to both of them.

 

[DVG7]

@Himannv

whah is your plan to deal with the amount of possession I’ll have? My wingers occupy your full backs enough that I can’t see them advancing forward to join in any kind of press, your wingers don’t usually participate in much defensive work, my full backs like to get forward and be involved and busquets is pretty much left alone, since David villa asa striker was much more of the selfish, poaching kind, all his hard work came during his time on the left side of the Barca attack (I’m presuming you’re using the Valencia version of villa)

all the hard work of Keane and David’s seems a bit pointless given the ability of almost all my players on the ball exceeds theirs, and there is literally always an outball on.

 

[DVG7]

What type of mental gymnastics is required to say that peak Messi and peak Ronaldinho doesn’t work. The pessimism is unreal

look how often Messi came in from the right wing or dropped deep when he had Neymar on the left, and the two of them enjoyed plenty games where they were both devastating. This is peak Ronaldinho, who had one of the best two year peaks in history playing this position.

 

[DVG7]

Here you go @DVG7

When you said you going to the muppet mode beam and myself assumed you are gunning for Cristiano but i said we are probably going to take him so i hoped you go for Dinho instead, and you went there.

You have the best midfield that ever played the game but that attack is probably one of the worst even if the players as individuals are great. We saw what happened with Alexis and Ibrahimovic, two players that didnt want to sacrifice themself for the benefit of the team. For Messi to shine, hmm not let me rephrase is as that Messi would shine in any system and in any role. For Messi to be in the best ever form which he easily was in that period he as everyone ever in a team sport needs help. Three geniuses behind him gave him the platform but he needs help from the 2 partners up front. They have to be happy to play without the ball, make endless runs without the ball that will unsettle defence and open up space for Messi to exploit. They also have to be great defensive wise as the only way for them to be successful with the players that had was to win the ball quickly as defence was exposed. In that specific segment id buy Robben efforts but Dinho is an awful fit while on the offensive front both are one of the worst possible fits.
Dinho and Messi love each other though so them as pair id probably buy in some other system though also dont think it would be possible to see both versions at the ultimate best.

Then we get to defence, both fullbacks all out attack basically while you need one that will attack and the other that can provide balance and security at the back.
Godin i defended often that he can play in normal systems not just heavy defensive ones but high line in tiki taka is way too much. Fergie's United for example id be happy with, Pep's Barca not really.
Koeman im not sure, share some concerns with scrappy but reckon he can do it to a similar level of Pique, problem is i dont rate Pique.
Taking into consideration fullbacks as well i reckon having Koeman at the back will do more harm then good.

you should just have voted and kept your mouth shut with shite like this. Seriously, get the feck out of the match thread.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

What type of mental gymnastics is required to say that peak Messi and peak Ronaldinho doesn’t work. The pessimism is unreal

look how often Messi came in from the right wing or dropped deep when he had Neymar on the left, and the two of them enjoyed plenty games where they were both devastating. This is peak Ronaldinho, who had one of the best two year peaks in history playing this position.

yeah, lets morph two versions of Messi into one.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

you should just have voted and kept your mouth shut with shite like this. Seriously, get the feck out of the match thread.

you asked for it

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[DVG7]

Godin knows how to defend pure and simple but let’s not forget he’s South American and in a system like this, could easily bring stuff like this to the game.

criticism of him is unfair, naturally he’ll be concerned with Garrincha, so it probably would end up with him sitting a little deeper where he’s used to.

 

[Himannv]

@Himannv

whah is your plan to deal with the amount of possession I’ll have? My wingers occupy your full backs enough that I can’t see them advancing forward to join in any kind of press, your wingers don’t usually participate in much defensive work, my full backs like to get forward and be involved and busquets is pretty much left alone, since David villa asa striker was much more of the selfish, poaching kind, all his hard work came during his time on the left side of the Barca attack (I’m presuming you’re using the Valencia version of villa)

all the hard work of Keane and David’s seems a bit pointless given the ability of almost all my players on the ball exceeds theirs, and there is literally always an outball on.

I honestly don't think you would have all that much possession. While Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets are an excellent proven trio, they haven't really come up against anything like Keane, Davids, and Beckenbauer. Davids and Keane, in particular, do not rest for one minute and they'll be at it the whole game. If you want two players to chase down the ball, these are the two you'd pick I reckon. There will be plenty of instances where they win the ball, and I think with the ball my team has more ways to hurt you than yours has to mine.

 

[DVG7]

yeah, lets morph two versions of Messi into one.

so Messi hasn’t played from the right and as a false 9 in the same game? He goes wherever he pleases, the point is that Ronaldinho is a massive massive upgrade on Neymar and plenty times he and Messi creates magic.


Now replace Neymar with peak Ronaldinho. Almost all of the link up in this video comes from Messi playing centrally.

 

[DVG7]

I honestly don't think you would have all that much possession. While Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets are an excellent proven trio, they haven't really come up against anything like Keane, Davids, and Beckenbauer. Davids and Keane, in particular, do not rest for one minute and they'll be at it the whole game. If you want two players to chase down the ball, these are the two you'd pick I reckon. There will be plenty of instances where they win the ball, and I think with the ball my team has more ways to hurt you than yours has to mine.

Will then be chasing after suurbier and Marcelo too, who will have tons of space? It’s a game of numbers, sorry but no-one in history is good enough to stop Messi, Xavi, busquets and iniesta having most of the ball in a game. Even if they didn’t have 3 defenders who are very comfortable on the ball and can act as effective outlets.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

so Messi hasn’t played from the right and as a false 9 in the same game? He goes wherever he pleases, the point is that Ronaldinho is a massive massive upgrade on Neymar and plenty times he and Messi creates magic.


Now replace Neymar with peak Ronaldinho. Almost all of the link up in this video comes from Messi playing centrally.

Messi from the right plays where ever he wants but if you dont see a massive difference between F9 Messi that scored 100 goals in a year and the Messi that played with Neymar then im sorry we were watching different game,

 

[DVG7]

Messi from the right plays where ever he wants but if you dont see a massive difference between F9 Messi that scored 100 goals in a year and the Messi that played with Neymar then im sorry we were watching different game,

Hope you change your vote to me xxx

 

[DVG7]

Messi from the right plays where ever he wants but if you dont see a massive difference between F9 Messi that scored 100 goals in a year and the Messi that played with Neymar then im sorry we were watching different game,

Do you stand by your point that RMR is one of the worst constructed attacks of all time?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Do you stand by your point that RMR is one of the worst constructed attacks of all time?

from the tactical standpoint yes

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Hope you change your vote to me xxx

maybe tonight <3