Cristiano Ronaldo : The Juventus Chapter

NasirTimothy

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Fair enough. For me, the GOAT has to have that genius level ability allied with consistent demonstration of said ability and attendant achievements and accolades (team and individual). But that’s just me, other people have their own criteria.

The point is that’s it’s not enough to just tot up achievements and goals and then point to them as evidence of GOATness (which I think is what CR is trying to do). Obviously, such successes are necessary but they’re not sufficient (purely in my view).
 

bakalhau

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He has several remarkable goals in CL with Madrid. Against Marseille some 35 yards out, a couple against Ajax, one against Galatasaray. Etc, etc. His La Liga repertoire is filled with ridiculous goals, his long shot goals in Madrid are just wildly insane. Just take a quick look into Youtube and wonder who the hell even tries shooting from the mad angles he did, let alone score them. Messi sort of used to change games by scoring and dribbling past 3 or 4 players, Ronaldo could change the game by scoring 30-40yds screamers from out of nowhere. Same end result, different ways of doing it, but equal awesomness to both. He also had very nice individuals goals in RM, I can remember that sort of karate kick against Valencia in a deathmatch in La Liga round 36 or 37, that wonderful goal against Espanyol in 20...15 where he wrecks 3 players with 2 simple, beautiful touches...

He carried a lot of his United stuff into RM I'd say until somewhere in 2014. His main attribute was always pace, and acceleration. All the tricks, the dribbling, were there for him to just gain an inch on his opponent and take off. He was very smart to understand that wouldn't work forever, and changed up. That's better than keeping on doing the same even if it's not working anymore.

I do agree that Man Utd Ronaldo was something else though in terms of pure spectacle of technical football, compared to other times in his career. He consistently made attacking plays all on his own, starting behind the center line and finishing up crossing or assisting for a shot. There's dozens and dozens of example everywhere on Youtube. When I look that far back, and look now at Juventus where 10 guys struggle to do anything with the ball for 2 or 3 minutes, it's incredible to think of how this guy just did it all on his own more than a decade ago.

As for the question asked before about calling him a 'genius', it's a word I don't like using a lot to describe people, but I'd definitely say his mind is far out and beyond most footballers I've ever seen. It has just been shown in very different ways, from young Ronaldo in Man Utd, to RM's triple Champions League. His greatest attribute is definitely his brain, so while I wouldn't use that word on him or practically anyone else in any field, yes, the guy clearly has a brilliant mind in more than just football, and I'd definitely put him up with a very short list of players that I could say felt like they came from another world.
 

Pickle85

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What’s the best performance you’ve ever seen him have where he didn’t score a goal?
What a strange question. I get that the implication is that his game is nothing without goals but it's hardly his fault that he scores in most games that he plays?! This whole line of argument is a bit Monty Python 'What have the Romans done for us?'
 

bakalhau

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For the question quoted in the post above:


I'm pretty sure he scored like one goal in a couple games there, but there were others in that video where he didn't score a goal. He also has a RM game where he scored 2, but assisted 4, and I clearly remember the Spanish press complimenting him on that game for his all round contribution. Then I'm 95% sure he had a game with 3/4 assists in RM without a goal as well which earned him quite a lot of praised from the country's press too. I'm just not sure if these 2 examples are the ones in the video above, or if they were in addition to the ones shown in the video.

I am absolutey sorry for the music in that video.
 

MadMike

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if you exclude bayern and the top 3 in spain its the same level, yes.
So remove 3 clubs from Spain, but only 1 from Germany. Otherwise equals :houllier:

And what club in Germany outside Bayern is as good as Sevilla then, who went to 4 Europa League finals in 6 years from 2014-2020 winning 3 of them?
 

NasirTimothy

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What a strange question. I get that the implication is that his game is nothing without goals but it's hardly his fault that he scores in most games that he plays?! This whole line of argument is a bit Monty Python 'What have the Romans done for us?'
Pretty poor analogy if you actually examine the brutality of the Roman Empire. Or any Empire frankly. Are Commonwealth countries supposed to be grateful for the British Empire?

Not that blinkered posh boys like Monty Python would be aware of such nuances, but hey-ho

Back to the question at hand. I never said that his game was nothing without goals, that would be a falsehood. I’m just saying that his game has become more and more about goals and less and less about all round performances since his United period and his early years at Madrid.
 

Pickle85

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Pretty poor analogy if you actually examine the brutality of the Roman Empire. Or any Empire frankly. Are Commonwealth countries supposed to be grateful for the British Empire?

Not that blinkered posh boys like Monty Python would be aware of such nuances, but hey-ho

Back to the question at hand. I never said that his game was nothing without goals, that would be a falsehood. I’m just saying that his game has become more and more about goals and less and less about all round performances since his United period and his early years at Madrid.
Jesus, calm down. I think you may be taking that flippant comment a little too seriously. Blinkered posh boys? Quite a significant chip you have on your shoulder there. Also, you didn't time box your comment to post-United as you imply above...you said 'whats the best performance that you've ever seen him have...'
 

Raredaredevil

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I wanted Juve to drop out of top 4 because I am curious to see if he would stay on at Juve without CL football which I doubt he will considering his age and his ego, vanity and narcissism, he will probably leave. It's not his fault though because at his age, every year is like 10 years. I hope he leaves Juve and go back to Real Madrid. Will be funny to see an aging Ronaldo and Messi compete again. Football romanticism at it's finest.
 

Camara

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He was better last season that Ronaldo was in any of the previous 3, and as good as he's been, would be better if he weren't encumbered by Ronaldo.
I'm sorry.... what?
You may prefer Dybala over Ronaldo due to the different styles but saying something like this is just... I don't know.

Why do you think that Dybala was better?
It is based on what?
I saw the entire season and Dybala only appeared in very rare moments, scoring beautiful goals, but those were just the rare moments.
Meanwhile Ronaldo kept deciding games left, right and center.

Ronaldo "just" scored 31 goals in the League, meh right?

Well let's look for example at Whoscored

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/108/Tournaments/5/Seasons/7928/Italy-Serie-A

Ronaldo has the best score of any player, weird?
Dybala doesn't even make to the season's best XI.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/114863/History/Paulo-Dybala
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/5583/History/Cristiano-Ronaldo

Dybala played 25 games as starter + 8 as sub, played 2165 minutes, made 11 goals, 6 assists (11 in Transfermarkt) and was MOTM 3 times.
He scored or assisted in 20 separate games.
His average rating was 7.44.

Ronaldo played 33 games, played 2919 minutes, made 31 goals, 5 assists (6 in Transfermarkt) and was MOTM 10 times.
He scored or assisted in 25 separate games.
His average rating was 7.82.


But of course, Dybala has more key passes per game, more dribbles per game, so he was better for the team than the guy that was MOTM almost 1/3 of the games he played, with an average of almost 1 goal per game... right?
 

RedRonaldo

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Most Juve fans naturally like Dybala more than Ronaldo. I agree Dybala was probably slightly better from an empirical point of view. It still doesn't erase the fact that Ronaldo was the team's topscorer by a mile and scored in what was a record 12 consecutive games last year which was a major factor in them retaining the title. Also, he turned up for Juve's most important game of the season against Lyon which Dybala didn't (as he was injured).

It was close between both IMO. Hence why Juve still gave Ronaldo their MVP award despite Serie A awarding theirs to Dybala.

But your point about Dybala last season being better than any of Ronaldo's 3 Juve seasons is simply false.
Just wondering, hasn't Ronaldo also win Serie A footballer of the year in 2019 and 2020, which is also the more prestigious award in Italy? What's this MVP award all about? Is this Italian equivalent of FWA and PFA award as in England? It seem the MVP award is a relatively new award starting only from 2018 onwards.
 

NasirTimothy

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Jesus, calm down. I think you may be taking that flippant comment a little too seriously. Blinkered posh boys? Quite a significant chip you have on your shoulder there. Also, you didn't time box your comment to post-United as you imply above...you said 'whats the best performance that you've ever seen him have...'
There’s no chip on my shoulder, just an understanding of history and the truth.

Also I’ve said many times about the differences between his game at United and in his later years, so the ‘time-box’ was implied
 

Pickle85

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There’s no chip on my shoulder, just an understanding of history and the truth.

Also I’ve said many times about the differences between his game at United and in his later years, so the ‘time-box’ was implied
Wow, you're so wise. Thank goodness you're here to hand down lessons from your pedestal. Apparently one thing you don't understand is the meaning of the word implied, given that you used the word 'ever', so not sure how that message implied a time box??
 

Gonçalo Motta

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Juve will win the league again if leaves, even with Pirlo staying as manager.
Well, you are not wrong. Eventually, they will win it again
 

NasirTimothy

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Wow, you're so wise. Thank goodness you're here to hand down lessons from your pedestal. Apparently one thing you don't understand is the meaning of the word implied, given that you used the word 'ever', so not sure how that message implied a time box??
I’m wiser than you, that’s for sure.

The person who answered the question I posed gave a Madrid performance. Why would they do that I wonder? Maybe because Ronaldo up until the last two years of his United tenure was not actually a prolific goalscorer.

Anyone following the thread of the conversation would have known what I meant.
 

Pickle85

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I’m wiser than you, that’s for sure.

The person who answered the question I posed gave a Madrid performance. Why would they do that I wonder? Maybe because Ronaldo up until the last two years of his United tenure was not actually a prolific goalscorer.

Anyone following the thread of the conversation would have known what I meant.
Cool, just a word to the wise(r): maybe be a little clearer next time, k? :D
 

Tom Cato

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Where did you read these rumours? I guess we'll get some sort of insight into how he interacts with others in the dressing room with the new amazon doc on Juve set to be released.
Twitter comments from journos, articles. But I havent bothered to source check so that's why I mention that I don't know how true this is.
 

MrEleson

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Just wondering, hasn't Ronaldo also win Serie A footballer of the year in 2019 and 2020, which is also the more prestigious award in Italy? What's this MVP award all about? Is this Italian equivalent of FWA and PFA award as in England? It seem the MVP award is a relatively new award starting only from 2018 onwards.
I have no idea to be honest, but a quick google search tells me that you're correct and Ronaldo did win Serie A footballer of the year in both 2019 and 20.

So Ronaldo won Juve's POTY award and Serie A footballer of the year (2 awards) to Dybala's solitary MVP (also from Serie A themselves?) in 2020, yet people claim the latter was much better last year.
 

Stack

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I still cant believe how lucky we are to have watched his entire career like this with todays tv accessibility etc. He and Messi in the same era, just fantastic.
 

RedRonaldo

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I have no idea to be honest, but a quick google search tells me that you're correct and Ronaldo did win Serie A footballer of the year in both 2019 and 20.

So Ronaldo won Juve's POTY award and Serie A footballer of the year (2 awards) to Dybala's solitary MVP (also from Serie A themselves?) in 2020, yet people claim the latter was much better last year.
I just checked these are 2 different awards organized by 2 different organization. The “Serie A player of the year” award (won by Ronaldo) is organized by Italian footballers association and has 24 years history. Whereas the “Serie A MVP” awards (won by Dybala) are organized by Liga Serie A and only has 2 years of history.

In short, I assume the one Ronaldo has won is more prestigious as it has way longer history than Dybala one. (24 years awards vs 2 years award)
 

Morty_

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I had in the back of my mind when Juventus secured top 4 that UEFA/Serie A might try to do something about it so they wouldnt get CL-football anyway.

Now, lets see what happens, but if Juventus(+ RM and Barca) actually gets expelled from CL, i doubt very much he wants to stay at Juventus(and a few other players might want to do the same).
 

Red Stone

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Ronaldo haters are so fecking tiresome. "Name a great performance where he didn't score a goal, even though he averaged more than a goal a game for the decade he spent in his prime. Can't do it, huh? Huh? Huh?"

And then someone does it anyway.

"But what exactly was so great about it, huh? Huh? Huh? I want specifics!"
 

spaceboyRSA

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Ronaldo haters are so fecking tiresome. "Name a great performance where he didn't score a goal, even though he averaged more than a goal a game for the decade he spent in his prime. Can't do it, huh? Huh? Huh?"

And then someone does it anyway.

"But what exactly was so great about it, huh? Huh? Huh? I want specifics!"
Amen
 

LoneStar

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I hope we don't go for him. Obscene wages combined with the fact that we need to build our team around him. He's nowhere close to the player that left us (not a suprise given his age).
 

NasirTimothy

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Ronaldo haters are so fecking tiresome. "Name a great performance where he didn't score a goal, even though he averaged more than a goal a game for the decade he spent in his prime. Can't do it, huh? Huh? Huh?"

And then someone does it anyway.

"But what exactly was so great about it, huh? Huh? Huh? I want specifics!"
I’m not a Ronaldo hater actually, I’ve praised him on here several times. My issue was with his public relations campaign for GOAT status (I’ve won this and that in this country and that country), which I think is foolhardy.

Re the question about performances, I asked another poster whether he’d describe CR as a football genius and he said no. I don’t think there is any other serious contender for the GOAT crown where there might be any debate at all as to whether they are a genius. Maybe Alfredo DiStefano, but that’s it.

Edit: Averaging a goal a game doesn’t actually mean that you score in every single game. I mean, you get that right? Dear oh dear. I think the problem here is uncritical worshippers, not ‘haters’
 
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UncleBob

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Per 90:
Lewandowski turned 0.86 npxG into 1.05 npG
Ronaldo turned 0.60 npxG into 0.63 npG

I don't think anyone would suggest Ronaldo wouldn't score lots of goals, but I don't see anything to support the notion that he would do it on Lewandowski's current level.
A 4 year younger Lewandowski, in a worse overall league and playing for the team that has walked the league 9 seasons in a row, has averaged 1,04 goals per match the last 3 seasons. 0.92 goals per match since 14/15.
Cristiano Ronaldo, close to retirement at the highest level, for a significantly worse team and in a better overall league, has averaged 0,83 goals per match the last seasons, 0.95 goals per match since 14/15.

Haaland, since arriving in Germany, has averaged 0,93 goals per match.

xG90, in Germany, is laughably high. Harry Kane, in his most productive season, was at 0,7.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...0-2021&player_id2=8d78e732&p2yrfrom=2020-2021

Is Lewandowski a better overall player these days, yup, would Ronaldo score goals at a similar level as Lewandowski in this current Bayern team? Doubt he'd be far off in such an average league.
 

NasirTimothy

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do.ob

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A 4 year younger Lewandowski, in a worse overall league and playing for the team that has walked the league 9 seasons in a row, has averaged 1,04 goals per match the last 3 seasons. 0.92 goals per match since 14/15.
Cristiano Ronaldo, close to retirement at the highest level, for a significantly worse team and in a better overall league, has averaged 0,83 goals per match the last seasons, 0.95 goals per match since 14/15.

Haaland, since arriving in Germany, has averaged 0,93 goals per match.

xG90, in Germany, is laughably high. Harry Kane, in his most productive season, was at 0,7.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...0-2021&player_id2=8d78e732&p2yrfrom=2020-2021

Is Lewandowski a better overall player these days, yup, would Ronaldo score goals at a similar level as Lewandowski in this current Bayern team? Doubt he'd be far off in such an average league.
Sorry buddy I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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A 4 year younger Lewandowski, in a worse overall league and playing for the team that has walked the league 9 seasons in a row, has averaged 1,04 goals per match the last 3 seasons. 0.92 goals per match since 14/15.
Cristiano Ronaldo, close to retirement at the highest level, for a significantly worse team and in a better overall league, has averaged 0,83 goals per match the last seasons, 0.95 goals per match since 14/15.

Haaland, since arriving in Germany, has averaged 0,93 goals per match.

xG90, in Germany, is laughably high. Harry Kane, in his most productive season, was at 0,7.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...0-2021&player_id2=8d78e732&p2yrfrom=2020-2021

Is Lewandowski a better overall player these days, yup, would Ronaldo score goals at a similar level as Lewandowski in this current Bayern team? Doubt he'd be far off in such an average league.
Lewandowski had scored 28 goals in his last 24 games in the Champions League. Where is the Bundesliga excuse there? Lewandowski is absolutely prolific, it doesn’t matter where he plays.
 

Wolf1992

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A 4 year younger Lewandowski, in a worse overall league and playing for the team that has walked the league 9 seasons in a row, has averaged 1,04 goals per match the last 3 seasons. 0.92 goals per match since 14/15.
Cristiano Ronaldo, close to retirement at the highest level, for a significantly worse team and in a better overall league, has averaged 0,83 goals per match the last seasons, 0.95 goals per match since 14/15.

Haaland, since arriving in Germany, has averaged 0,93 goals per match.

xG90, in Germany, is laughably high. Harry Kane, in his most productive season, was at 0,7.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...0-2021&player_id2=8d78e732&p2yrfrom=2020-2021

Is Lewandowski a better overall player these days, yup, would Ronaldo score goals at a similar level as Lewandowski in this current Bayern team? Doubt he'd be far off in such an average league.
Current Serie A is no better than Bundesliga, they are the same level.
 

AltiUn

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Ronaldo haters are so fecking tiresome. "Name a great performance where he didn't score a goal, even though he averaged more than a goal a game for the decade he spent in his prime. Can't do it, huh? Huh? Huh?"

And then someone does it anyway.

"But what exactly was so great about it, huh? Huh? Huh? I want specifics!"
He's got 229 career assists so he must be doing something right.
 

giorno

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I just checked these are 2 different awards organized by 2 different organization. The “Serie A player of the year” award (won by Ronaldo) is organized by Italian footballers association and has 24 years history. Whereas the “Serie A MVP” awards (won by Dybala) are organized by Liga Serie A and only has 2 years of history.

In short, I assume the one Ronaldo has won is more prestigious as it has way longer history than Dybala one. (24 years awards vs 2 years award)
Nah, nobody ever gave a feck about either. We never cared about these awards here in italy, it's not like england
 

RedRonaldo

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Nah, nobody ever gave a feck about either. We never cared about these awards here in italy, it's not like england
You are not following the discussion at all. It’s not about whether it matters to you or not, it just people here are discussing who is having a better or more recognisable year, between Ronaldo and Dybala last season.
 

giorno

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You are not following the discussion at all. It’s not about whether it matters to you or not, it just people here are discussing who is having a better or more recognisable year, between Ronaldo and Dybala last season.
Cristiano did imo, though OPTA didn't think so

But still, MVP award might be a bit prestigious given it's like the official serie A award. The one cris won is like, who gives a feck. Don't think most people would even know about it. Don't think most people even know it exists
 

Red Stone

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Edit: Averaging a goal a game doesn’t actually mean that you score in every single game. I mean, you get that right? Dear oh dear.
But it does mean that he has a much smaller number of games where he hasn't scored. You get that, right? Dear oh dear. Condescending prick.
 

Paula

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So remove 3 clubs from Spain, but only 1 from Germany. Otherwise equals :houllier:

And what club in Germany outside Bayern is as good as Sevilla then, who went to 4 Europa League finals in 6 years from 2014-2020 winning 3 of them?
Otherwise it equals, yes.
Dortmund at least.