Cristiano Ronaldo vs Gerd Muller

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Following on from the Ronaldo v Ronaldo thread, I think this one has far more room for actual and statistical comparison as opposed to romanticized extrapolation.

Gerd Muller: Important stats

68 goals in 62 International games
653 goals in 702 club games
1 World Cup
1 European Championships
1 Ballon d’or
3 European cups
4 Bundesligas
Bundesliga top scorer 7 times
World Cup top scorer 1970
European championships top scorer 1972
European cup top scorer 4 times

Cristiano Ronaldo: Important stats

85 goals in 157 International games
593 goals in 794 games (and counting)
1 European championships
5 Ballon d’ors
5 Champions leagues
3 premierships
2 La Liga titles
4 European golden shoes
7 champions league top scorer


Missed out some fairly important things for them both but this covers the jist of the magnitude of their achievements.

The big difference that people will notice straight away is the difference in ballon d’ors. Ronaldo has only had to compete with Messi (and the fact he has done is remarkable) but it can’t be overlooked how much more competition Muller had back then. The ballon d’or winners in and around Mullers era include;

Eusebio
Bobby Charlton
George Best
Gianni Rivera
Johan Cruyff
Franz Beckenbauer

There’s also the different leagues/different teams mentality which I feel is unfair to players who spent the majority of their career at one club. If the Portuguese league was the strongest in the world, would Ronaldo ever have left sporting? Muller was born in Germany and played out his peak there, I just don’t think you can hold that against him the same way that you can’t hold anything against Baresi or Maldini.

For the sake of the argument, we are comparing the Pure goalscoring version of Ronaldo at Real Madrid, when he adapted his game to be closer to goal and get on the end of things.

So, who was better?



 
adexkola said:
Oh this is a good one.
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Yup, I think that World Cup winners medal holds just as much weight as Ronaldo’s extra two champions leagues. And 14 goals in 13 World Cup matches is insane, regardless of how good Germany were.
 
I'm often amazed by how often Gerd Muller's name is overlooked when it comes to GOAT discussions. Obviously I never watched him play live, but his stats are amazing. The fact that he won the WC and European Championship (whilst contributing heavily to those wins) and has a better goal to game ratio than Ronaldo should tip the scales a bit in his favor. Also, I don't think the lack of Ballon D'ors should be used as a stick to beat him with, we are all aware how politicized the award has been in recent years. On the flip side Ronaldo spent a major part of his career on the wing as opposed to an out and out CF like Muller was.
 
Their stats are similar and show that stats are irrelevant when comparing players. Müller was probably the best finisher ever and arguably the better "clutch" player, but Ronaldo is the more complete and overall superior player. I would never rate any of them as a top 3 player though.
 
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Interesting threat, probably the two best goalscorers ever in the game.

I would still pick Müller ahead of Ronaldo though, simply for the fact that he completely dominated world football in his time with both Bayern and Germany, and that he has held pretty much all goalscoringrecords there are and has held them for 40+ years.

A few of his records have been broken, for example world cup goalscorer by R9 in 2006 and most goals in calenderyear by Messi in 2012 but even those have lasted multiple generations before they were broken. Other records are still his.

Also the Bundesliga in the 70's was probably the strongest league in the world back then, with both Bayern and Mongengladbach being the best teams in the world then.
 
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JDoe said:
Their stats are similar and show that stats are irrelevant when comparing players. Müller was probably the best finisher ever and arguably the better "clutch" player, but Ronaldo is the more complete and overall superior player. I would never rate any of them as a top 3 player though.
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That's the thing. If you believe Ronaldo to be a top 5 GOAT candidate or higher, then Müller shouldn't be far behind, judging by the stats
 
The comparison is a great illustration of how much football has changed. Two players with very similar stats, list of trophies, and with generally the same role (if not position) in their teams. Yet how much of a superior athlete and all round footballer the Portuguese had to be to match the German's output? A staggering difference.
 
Waiting for Ronaldo fans to - completely unironicly - argue that Muller’s goalscoring record is not that important because Ronaldo is the more complete player and football is about more than just scoring goals.
 
These things can only be judged by people who watched both players.
I'm 27 and I cannot imagine that there were players as good as Messi and Ronaldo. It just doesn't seem possible to me.
 
The level of talent was ridiculous in Mullers time compared to now. He stood out amongst;

Facchetti
Rivera (both in upper bracket of top Italian players of all time)

Jairzinho
Pele
Rivelino
Carlos Alberto (all in upper bracket of top Brazilian players of all time)

Bobby moore
Bobby charlton (England’s Best two of all time)

Beckenbauer
Berti Vogts
Use Seeler (upper bracket of German teammates)

Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia’s best ever)

Neeskens
Cruyff ( a top 5 GOAT and one of the best midfielders ever)

And I’m missing out a lot of players in this era simply because the list gets a bit long.
 
King7Eric said:
I'm often amazed by how often Gerd Muller's name is overlooked when it comes to GOAT discussions. Obviously I never watched him play live, but his stats are amazing. The fact that he won the WC and European Championship (whilst contributing heavily to those wins) and has a better goal to game ratio than Ronaldo should tip the scales a bit in his favor. Also, I don't think the lack of Ballon D'ors should be used as a stick to beat him with, we are all aware how politicized the award has been in recent years. On the flip side Ronaldo spent a major part of his career on the wing as opposed to an out and out CF like Muller was.
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It's because he played with Beckenbauer.

It's a bit like Xavi and Iniesta. They're rated as some of, if not the best to ever play in their positions. But you can't say they're the best simply because they played with Messi, and it's pretty clear who was the best out of all 3.
 
Müller's overall football ability (mostly his link-up play) might be underrated historically, but it's Ronaldo by a countrymile in that regard. Cristiano (especially the Utd version) also wins the 'eyetest' easily - I know it's something discounted by his supporters, but it's an important aspect for me.

Gerd's goal scoring record in big games is unparalleled, but overall he also wasn't seen as the most important player on his team during his time.
Is that influenced by his era and the way people looked at football? Possible. I already suggested that at some point.
 
Can someone please tag peyroteo in here, I would appreciate his insight on this since I believe mullers understanding of the game/space was at an elite level and that’s always what he uses to set Cristiano apart.

Also, @Cal? in you come.
 
@Arbitrium good thread btw. I’d probably veer towards Ronaldo because he initially started off as a winger, then a wide forward & now probably an out and out forward (albeit at times, still from the wing). So he’s adapted his game a bit more, and he is definitely the more completely player of the 2, IMO.

Though no one should even dare use Germany’s international strength as reasoning against Mullers superior international record because it’s not as if club football is any fairer or more equitable.
 
Adisa said:
These things can only be judged by people who watched both players.
I'm 27 and I cannot imagine that there were players as good as Messi and Ronaldo. It just doesn't seem possible to me.
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It does seem hard to fathom doesn't it. However I am old enough to have watched Maradona and I have him ahead of Ronaldo and probably just a bit behind Messi. Messi is the best I've seen. Messi and Ronaldo have spoiled us all. We're lucky to have seen them in their prime.
 
Ish said:
@Arbitrium good thread btw. I’d probably veer towards Ronaldo because he initially started off as a winger, then a wide forward & now probably an out and out forward (albeit at times, still from the wing). So he’s adapted his game a bit more, and he is definitely the more completely player of the 2, IMO.

Though no one should even dare use Germany’s international strength as reasoning against Mullers superior international record because it’s not as if club football is any fairer or more equitable.
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I wanted the comparison to be more in relation to Ronaldo in the last 5 years, since his skill set and impact in this time would be more comparable with Müller since he played closer to the opponents goal. As an all round attacker it’s no contest, as one is both a GOAT winger and goal scorer and the other only played one role his whole career.
 
adexkola said:
That's the thing. If you believe Ronaldo to be a top 5 GOAT candidate or higher, then Müller shouldn't be far behind, judging by the stats
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It was much easier to score goals back then - especially in the sixties - which gets overlooked a bit in these debates. You just need to watch a bit of the matches, and see how poor the defenses were, with tactics being non-existent (for the most part) until the seventies or so. To Muller's credit, he actually matches his sixties numbers also in the seventies.
 
Interesting.

Career:
Goals and Stats: Similar
Individual achievements: Ronaldo (5 Ballon D'or > 1 Ballon D'or)
Team achievements: Similar

Peak
Performances: Ronaldo
Peak years: Ronaldo

But its hard to compare players in different era. More high scoring games back in those era.
 
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Arbitrium said:
The level of talent was ridiculous in Mullers time compared to now. He stood out amongst;

Facchetti
Rivera (both in upper bracket of top Italian players of all time)

Jairzinho
Pele
Rivelino
Carlos Alberto (all in upper bracket of top Brazilian players of all time)

Bobby moore
Bobby charlton (England’s Best two of all time)

Beckenbauer
Berti Vogts
Use Seeler (upper bracket of German teammates)

Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia’s best ever)

Neeskens
Cruyff ( a top 5 GOAT and one of the best midfielders ever)

And I’m missing out a lot of players in this era simply because the list gets a bit long.
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You can say the same for Ronaldo. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Ibrahimovic, Robben, Falcao (the good one), Rooney, RVP, defenders like Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Vidic, Ferdinand, Cole, Zanetti, Ramos, Terry and so on.

Remove nostalgia, realize that Pele with Muller clashed only when Pele was almost finished and Muller was just starting, and you have two top 10 players of all time in that list (same as in my list), with the likes of Sir Bobby and Muller being the best of the rest, but not far ahead of Xavi and Iniesta.
 
adidas-originals-germany-der-bomber_360_bce102b928043ee46017b84e2822e8cd.jpg


That cnut Ronaldo can only dream of ever having an Adidas Originals shirt as cool as this one
 
Revan said:
You can say the same for Ronaldo. Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Ibrahimovic, Robben, Falcao (the good one), Rooney, RVP, defenders like Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Vidic, Ferdinand, Cole, Zanetti, Ramos, Terry and so on.

Remove nostalgia, realize that Pele with Muller clashed only when Pele was almost finished and Muller was just starting, and you have two top 10 players of all time in that list (same as in my list), with the likes of Sir Bobby and Muller being the best of the rest, but not far ahead of Xavi and Iniesta.
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Na, a lot of those names you mention don’t come close in a historical sense. Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Ferdinand, Vidic and Zanetti are all pretty redundant when it comes to Cristiano and his last 5 years, which is the version that would be closest to Müller.
 
Great thread, if only to shed some light on that the whole GOAT discussion shouldn't be limited to a mere stat comparison between Messi and Ronaldo.

I, as most on here have probably not seen any game Muller played, so I don't have an opinion. I'd like to hear an informed opinion by someone who have watched both though if possible.

Infordin said:
Waiting for Ronaldo fans to - completely unironicly - argue that Muller’s goalscoring record is not that important because Ronaldo is the more complete player and football is about more than just scoring goals.
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Perfect.
 
By the Ronaldo fans standards Muller is the better player, for the objective observer Ronaldo is the better one, not by a mile of course.
 
King7Eric said:
I'm often amazed by how often Gerd Muller's name is overlooked when it comes to GOAT discussions.
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Just as I expect Ronaldo's will be 50 years from now, and possibly Messi's to some extent. There will be some other stat king taking over that debate by then and the only ones people will remember are the ones who made your jaw drop like Maradona. Muller was incredible but he got lost in those latter names.
 
11101 said:
Just as I expect Ronaldo's will be 50 years from now, and possibly Messi's to some extent. There will be some other stat king taking over that debate by then and the only ones people will remember are the ones who made your jaw drop like Maradona. Muller was incredible but he got lost in those latter names.
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I don't think anyone will ever forget to mention Ronaldo's or Messi's names, unlike those in generations before them, every single second of their careers is plastered all over the internet, mainstream media and computer games. They have thousands of hours worth of compilations in every corner of YouTube/football internet forums, their careers are too easily accessible to not be mentioned years from now. The stars of yesteryear don't have that same luxury that the modern footballing heavyweights do.
 
So, why not use Fernando Peyroteo in this thread? He is the all time best goal scorer ever to play the sport in the goals/per game ratio.
 
Arbitrium said:
The big difference that people will notice straight away is the difference in ballon d’ors. Ronaldo has only had to compete with Messi (and the fact he has done is remarkable) but it can’t be overlooked how much more competition Muller had back then. The ballon d’or winners in and around Mullers era include;

Eusebio
Bobby Charlton
George Best
Gianni Rivera
Johan Cruyff
Franz Beckenbauer
Click to expand...

Amazing number of great players in that period. I doubt any of them can beat Messi though. Great players still, but just not at Messi level.

Who do we have here apart from Messi? Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar perhaps? Maybe not comparable in GOAT sense, but they are still all time great players for their country in generation sense.

Xavi - Best midfielder in the world in 2000's. One of Spain all time best. Won WC, 2 Euro, 4 CL, 8 La Liga, 133 caps for Spain. I think he is among top 20-30 GOAT
Iniesta - Best midfielder in world in 2000's. One of Spain all time best. Won WC, 2 Euro, 4 CL, 9 La Liga, 131 caps for Spain. I think he is among top 30-40 GOAT
Neymar (maybe?) - All time 3rd top goalscorer for Brazil, behind Pele and Ronaldo, very likely to break Ronaldo record soon and get to 2nd place. By far best Brazil player in 2010's, in worst period of Brazil football. Unranked in GOAT sense.
 
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Pointless thread and a poll, majority here never saw Mueller play.

King7Eric said:
I'm often amazed by how often Gerd Muller's name is overlooked when it comes to GOAT discussions. Obviously I never watched him play live, but his stats are amazing. The fact that he won the WC and European Championship (whilst contributing heavily to those wins) and has a better goal to game ratio than Ronaldo should tip the scales a bit in his favor. Also, I don't think the lack of Ballon D'ors should be used as a stick to beat him with, we are all aware how politicized the award has been in recent years. On the flip side Ronaldo spent a major part of his career on the wing as opposed to an out and out CF like Muller was.
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And yet you voted Ronaldo.
 
André Dominguez said:
So, why not use Fernando Peyroteo in this thread? He is the all time best goal scorer ever to play the sport in the goals/per game ratio.
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Because we need the players to have world class achievements at club/international/both level so as to confirm their GOAT status. Trophies and individual awards must be taken into account.
 
Amar__ said:
Pointless thread and a poll, majority here never saw Mueller play.



And yet you voted Ronaldo.
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What has my vote gotta do with it?? The fact that Ronaldo played a bulk of his career on the wing and still posted those numbers is quite impressive for me. Muller and Ronaldo are both in the GOAT discussion for me , but if pushed I'd have to give Ronaldo the edge, not that it takes anything away from Muller.
 
Muller. He actually scored in a knockout game at a World Cup.
 
King7Eric said:
What has my vote gotta do with it?? The fact that Ronaldo played a bulk of his career on the wing and still posted those numbers is quite impressive for me. Muller and Ronaldo are both in the GOAT discussion for me , but if pushed I'd have to give Ronaldo the edge, not that it takes anything away from Muller.
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I found it funny since your only post in this thread was praising Mueller, only to vote for Ronaldo. I am not saying you are wrong.
 
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