Criteria Draft Round 1 - Chesterlestreet vs Paceme

Who would win this match where all the players are playing at their peaks?


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RoadTrip

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Team Paceme

My team is set up in a pretty simple 4-2-3-1. I will play a high tempo game to get the most out of my brilliant front line which has creativity and goals in abundance. Del Piero will have licence to cut in, safe in the knowledge that Abidal will stay back and cover for him. While on the the other side Figo and Ibarra will be a nightmare to defend against, creating massive overloads for their fullback to deal with. Cambiasso will play a defensive role giving Y. Toure the freedom to use his physical ability to create problems when running from deep and add an extra goal threat. My defense is solid with Vidic one of the greatest defenders of the modern ago partnered with a talented ball player who has proven himself to be an outstanding defender in the last 2 seasons at arsenal after a rocky start. Ibarra will have licence to move forward with the defense able to move over to cover his loss with Abidal staying back.





Team Chesterlestreet

Oliver Kahn. One of the best keepers ever. A leader and inspirational force on the pitch. And so forth. You know who Kahn is.

Michael Reiziger. Won the CL with Van Gaal's Ajax at a young age, arguably as a decidedly offensive fullback. Developed into more of a rounded fullback with experience and became defensively very solid (at the expense of his offensive contributions, yes, that is usually the case).

Gianluca Pessotto. Tactically brilliant fullback who can contribute at both ends of the pitch with ease. An ideal man for a fullback role which demands both.

Des Walker. One of the best English defenders of his generation. His speed and his superb marking are his main traits. Well, he was a brilliant tackler too – rarely made a foul when he went for the ball in a one-on-one.

Tony Adams. One of the best English defenders of all time. A wall of a man.

Mark Van Bommel. Tactically excellent, mentally superb. A real cnut too. The sort of man you do not want to play against for all kinds of reasons. Very good passer of the ball too, far from being just a destroyer.

Robert Prosinečki. Brilliant technically, excellent passer and dribbler. An unpredictable, cocky, fearless player who will always seek to create something, even in the tightest of spaces.

Gaizka Mendieta. Tactically impeccable. A player with no real weaknesses. Versatile, disciplined, extremely intelligent and hard working to boot. Not too shabby, eh?

Dennis Bergkamp. A player who is comfortable all over the attacking half. Superbly clever, ice cold, and a proper bastard to boot. A creator and a finisher.

Hristo Stoichkov. The dagger. He will kill you. The most dangerous player on the pitch.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic. As per usual I give a perfectly unknown player a chance in my team. I don't know anything about this man, but his nose looks great and he's a big bastard too. Should be able to do some damage in the box. Possibly from outside the box too.

Sub: Some old geezer I brought along for the ride. Should be good for some yarns about bygone times. He probably played with Julius Cesar (harpastum or whatever the Romans called it) by the looks of him.

Customized. Looks like a 4-3-3 of sorts but with specialized roles. Van Bommel is there to do the donkey work, mainly. That's clear enough. But as mentioned he does know how to pass the ball intelligently too. Prosinečki is the main creator among the three: he seeks to beat his man, create an imbalance, seek out one of the killers further up field to capitalize. Mendieta plays as a central midfielder, but one who seeks out wide at times. He plays almost an hybrid role here – part central, part wide midfielder. Given the chance he can combine with Reiziger on the right in an almost traditional full back/winger sense.

Bergkamp and Stoichkov both have free-ish roles. The former will play as a second striker at times, and as an offensive midfielder at times. The latter will roam around the box on both sides, operating almost like a winger at times. The corresponding makeshift “traditional” combo on the left – to Reiziger/Mendieta on the right – will then be Stoichkov and Pessotto, whose intelligence will allow him to determine when to come forward in support of the Bulgarian. The unknown big bastard (with the big nose) will lead the line. His role is that of a striker. Pure and simple. But his natural inclination (so I've been told) is to drop deeper at times and involve himself in the build-up. Which is a pure bonus, as both Bergkamp and Stoichkov are extremely dangerous in the box and more than capable of finishing off the attacks generated with Big Nose in a more creative function.

Adams and Walker will defend. That's what they do. Walker is very fast and capable of pressing high up the pitch without getting caught out. That is a bonus. It doesn't mean I'll instruct the defense as such to press high up the pitch all the time. It's a back four capable of playing different kinds of defensive football – they have speed, sheer defensive muscle and tactical acumen. And they have Oliver Kahn behind them.

The formation, as stated is a customized 4-3-3. If one so wishes, however, one might visualize it even as a diamond of sorts with Bergkamp as the tip (but one has to keep in mind that the roles are specialized and individual – Stoichkov is neither a second striker nor a winger, he has a free attacking role, and so does Bergkamp).
 

FromTheBench

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Very interesting battle. Can spot coupe of weak links atleast in either team plus excellent strengths in other areas.
 

antohan

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Pace has an appealing front four and straightforward setup. Chester's is more nuanced and I need to wrap my head around that front three, which could be quite interesting.

Fullbacks let him down though. It's probably just me, mind, I have the same (probably insane/misplaced) aversion to Reiziger as I do with de Boer. That Barca side really was a shambles at the back by design, not just down to individuals, but I can't shake off the memories.
 

FromTheBench

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In between Koscielny and Ibarra in that backline vs Stoichkov, Ibrahimovic and Bergkamp that is a handicap of one goal right there for me.


I am not the as high as some on here on either Battistuta and Rui Costa either and higher on Del Piero than most probably, but on the whole Front 6 of Paceme seem to have a clear edge over Chester. Just leaning Paceme for that reason. Probably something like 3-2 in a one off game and something like 5-3-2 in a 10 game series between the 2 teams. Hmm...
 

Gio

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Pace has an appealing front four and straightforward setup. Chester's is more nuanced and I need to wrap my head around that front three, which could be quite interesting.

Fullbacks let him down though. It's probably just me, mind, I have the same (probably insane/misplaced) aversion to Reiziger as I do with de Boer. That Barca side really was a shambles at the back by design, not just down to individuals, but I can't shake off the memories.
Aye Reiziger was gash. Could be functional in the right set-up and, with Mendieta to help him out, it could work. But I can see him getting twisted bollocks trying to deal with Del Piero.

Love both attacks though. In the midfield, Chester scores high for the cnut factor and none of them will get bullied, whereas you may occasionally question Toure and Rui Costa on that point.

Going to let this one pan out before taking a decision.
 

sajeev

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Pace has an appealing front four and straightforward setup. Chester's is more nuanced and I need to wrap my head around that front three, which could be quite interesting.

Fullbacks let him down though. It's probably just me, mind, I have the same (probably insane/misplaced) aversion to Reiziger as I do with de Boer. That Barca side really was a shambles at the back by design, not just down to individuals, but I can't shake off the memories.
i actually think Paceme's defence is weak, and wouldn't cope with Chester's attack.
I remember the dutch team of 1998 and Reiziger was quite decent if my memory serves me right.
 

RoadTrip

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Sorry Chester, paceme's front 4 is just enough to win this one in my books. Tough because his defence would certainly be leaky too against ur attack. overall though, got to go with him.
 

Chesterlestreet

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If that's how people send shit to me, I can't do jack!
Don't think it matters much - if anything the "head-to-head" style makes the bottom illustration look a bit odd. To me, at least. I prefer to read both line-ups keeper down. Thanks for setting up the match, trip - and sorry I didn't vote/participated in the action yesterday. I have a job on my hands with a deadline which is closing in rapidly - so I simply don't have the time.

Ah well, we all know the drafting is the fun part anyway. Which is a good thing given how this is going.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Van Bommel will have his hands full trying to hold in that attack line. Rui Costa will just step back a tad deep and control the game. Him and Batigol being a proven combo adds to the imbalance against Chester.

Infact I don't think you even need Ibarra to move forward and attack on his own. Just let him concentrate on defence and support Figo should be enough.

Neither defences are appealing. Zlatan/Bergkamp will have some joy but paceme will have more of the ball and defeintely will score more with that attack.

Sorry Chester, but paceme gets my vote.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Quick point: Reiziger was, if anything, better defensively than offensively in his prime. He was very good at covering and tracking. And he was very fast to boot. In other words he is well suited for defending against Del Piero. The latter plays as a tucked-in winger of sorts, I presume? As a wide player, something more along the lines of Figo on the right, I wouldn't worry much about Del Piero. Reiziger would have zero trouble dealing with him in that capacity.

If we compare the teams, Ibarra (whom I should call a wingback more than a fullback) is downright horrible defensively compared to Reiziger. On the whole I'd say my back five is clearly better than pace's.

Well, well - looks like an uphill battle for my boys.

Again, sorry I can't be more active - but I gots to make money, you know.

Will try to drop by again before the poll closes.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Van Bommel will have his hands full trying to hold in that attack line. Rui Costa will just step back a tad deep and control the game. Him and Batigol being a proven combo adds to the imbalance against Chester.

Infact I don't think you even need Ibarra to move forward and attack on his own. Just let him concentrate on defence and support Figo should be enough.

Neither defences are appealing. Zlatan/Bergkamp will have some joy but paceme will have more of the ball and defeintely will score more with that attack.

Sorry Chester, but paceme gets my vote.
Yeah, I'll take that gladly. Let him stay back there and be skinned alive by Stoichkov - that suits me fine.
 

Gio

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Bit surprised at the score, reckon a few of Chester's '90s boys are getting under-appreciated here.
 

NoPace

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Maybe the closest game so far, but I went with Chester. I think his midfield diamond should give Bergkamp, Prosinecki and Mendieta the chance to create something, and the width he loses defensively is made up for by having 2 excellent aerial defenders in Adams and Walker.

Stoichkov could really give that Vidic-Ibarra side trouble when he's coming in from the left, with the genius of Ibra and Berkgamp providing him through balls. That was probably the difference for me.

I'm really not sure about Prosinecki-VanBommel-Mendieta dealing with Yaya whenever he charges forward, though. Could also see Chester's back 5 struggling not to give up the ball, too, with fullbacks who were average on the ball, Walker who was worse and Adams and Van Bommel being good on the ball, but more complimentary types than the ones you want orchestrating back there. A lot of balls going back to Kahn then straight up the pitch to Ibra, for sure.

I should probably have just abstained from this one. Sorry Paceme. Looks like you'll win anyways, though.
 

VivaJanuzaj

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Vidic at RCB just seems wrong to me, and I really think Ibra can dominate that duo with Stoichkovic's speed and Bergkamp's technique. Really the best matchup Ibra could get in these drafts imo.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Not sure mate, but my understanding was the Stoichkov was tasked to roam around providing width on both sides. Don't think he can do that and skin RC.
His task isn't to provide width as such. One thing which genuinely annoys me with these match threads - and this ain't directed at you, Edgar, it's a general remark - is that people seem too hung up on such half abstract and half set-in-stone (in this context) categories such as "width". You need width if and when you intend to attack in a certain way. You don't need it all the time. If and when the opportunity presents itself I can attack down the wings on both sides - Reiziger combining with Mendieta, Stoichkov combining with Pessotto (or Prosinečki) to create something from a wide position. If and when. And IF Stoichkov finds himself one-on-one with Ibarra, he WILL skin him and then eat him. Because Ibarra isn't a very good defender. In my opinion. He certainly is a considerably less sturdy figure than Reiziger, who is far less likely to be skinned by Del Piero. If we're doing that comparison thing - which we shouldn't, really.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Vidic at RCB just seems wrong to me, and I really think Ibra can dominate that duo with Stoichkovic's speed and Bergkamp's technique. Really the best matchup Ibra could get in these drafts imo.
Agreed. But that's hardly surprising, I suppose. I would've said so even if I didn't agree. Which is part of the problem with this match thread format. But that's another debate (I have a lengthy post coming for the draft thread). But, yeah, I'd have Vidic on the left too.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Off to work again - but I'll leave ye with this:

I don't set up to dominate the match from A to Z or to win all the so-called "battles" within the match. Will Van Bommel have his work cut out for him in the middle? Yes, he will. But that's what he's there for. He doesn't have much else to do but to keep calm and defend, as they say. And then he's capable of picking out a pass whenever he manages to steal the ball - much more capable than your average destroyer, including longer passes. And in the defensive phase he will have good help from Mendieta - who is a hard working, disciplined sort of fecker. Prosinečki ain't much good in a bar fight, that's fair enough. But I'm not after winning some sort of imaginary three-on-three midfield "battle". RP is there to create something whenever he has the ball - and he will have the ball. And when he does he's extremely hard to dispossess. He's a trickster - an expert dribbler. If he doesn't manage to beat his man or find someone with a pass, the odds are in favour of him getting a free kick rather than losing the ball.

I'm looking at Stoichkov, Bergkamp and Ibrahimovic up there when I'm attacking. And they're up against Vidic and Koscielny assisted by...Abidal, I guess. Cambiasso can lend a hand, sure. Yaya? Wouldn't count on that. And Ibarra has already been mentioned. He is not a rock solid defender by any stretch. Robert P with the ball at his feet, those three plus Mendieta on the move in the attacking half - that's trouble. And all three of them are finishers of the highest order who can finish from all over the place, outside the box and inside. I think I have a goal or two in me here.

And I maintain that my defense is stronger than his. I agree that Walker is nothing to brag about on the ball - but I don't need him for that. He's there to deal with Batistuta: Walker is strong, fast (very fast, in fact), an excellent marker and tackler - and he's brilliant in the air to boot. His job is to take out Batigol. Adams cleans up the rest assisted by fullbacks who are clearly better defensively than what the opposition has to offer in that department.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Vidic at RCB just seems wrong to me, and I really think Ibra can dominate that duo with Stoichkovic's speed and Bergkamp's technique. Really the best matchup Ibra could get in these drafts imo.
Vidic and Ferdinand did actually switch sides at one stageof their Utd careers, and Vidic was fine at RCB as I recall. He's turned in a brilliant performance or two against Ibra before as well, but Stoichkov's pace could be a tougher proposition to deal with. Its hard to see either defence keeping a clean sheet here.
 

paceme

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I don't really see this gulf in the defences. Abidal was a world class full back at his peak, Vidic is better than anything he has and Koscielny is a candidate for best defender In the premier league at the moment. Ibbara isn't the best defensively but I'm pretty happy in knowing that I'll score much more than him and that his attack lacks pace other than stoichkov who has a hell of a lot to do.
 

Balu

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Didn't Vidic play RCB for Serbia most of the time? I'm pretty sure it was him on the right and Subotic on the left at the World Cup 2010. He's a right footed player after all, it shouldn't be a big problem. I'm usually a bit sceptical if a right footed centerback is used on the left side without ever playing there, because that really needs a lot of adjustment and doesn't always work out. But I don't see a problem with Vidic here at all, even though he usually played on the left for United.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Bit surprised at the score, reckon a few of Chester's '90s boys are getting under-appreciated here.
Posibly. I generally love Chester's teams, but I never rated Reizeger, seem to rate Mendieta slightly less highly than most, and never really saw as much of Prosinecki as the likes of Boban and Savicevic. I'd be interested to hear how highly you lot rate Prosinecki actually.

For Paceme, I reckon I rate Vidic, Del Piero and probably Cambiasso higher than most. I'm leaning heavily towards Paceme here but I may as well get a few beers into me before voting. .
 

Joga Bonito

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I went with Chesterlestreet simply for that great front three that he has. Simply unstoppable players with Stoichkov, Ibrahimovic and Bergkamp with Prosinecki behind them :drool: Perfect blend of technique, creativity, flair, aggression and ruthlessness in that front three. Just brilliant...

Just curious about the positioning of Ibra, shouldn't he be behind Stoichkov since he is the more technical and creative player or did you place Stoichkov there for his pace and his left footedness?
 

Gio

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Posibly. I generally love Chester's teams, but I never rated Reizeger, seem to rate Mendieta slightly less highly than most, and never really saw as much of Prosinecki as the likes of Boban and Savicevic. I'd be interested to hear how highly you lot rate Prosinecki actually.

For Paceme, I reckon I rate Vidic, Del Piero and probably Cambiasso higher than most. I'm leaning heavily towards Paceme here but I may as well get a few beers into me before voting. .
Prosinecki was the driving force behind Red Star's European Cup win in 1991, probably the best midfielder in Europe that season. And Mendieta was the same for Valencia at the end of the decade. As a pair I'd say they have the edge on Cambiasso/Toure. There is not a lot between the defences. I'd fancy Ibra to bully Koscielny particularly with Bergkamp's service and Stoichkov's stretching.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Prosinecki was the driving force behind Red Star's European Cup win in 1991, probably the best midfielder in Europe that season. And Mendieta was the same for Valencia at the end of the decade. As a pair I'd say they have the edge on Cambiasso/Toure. There is not a lot between the defences. I'd fancy Ibra to bully Koscielny particularly with Bergkamp's service and Stoichkov's stretching.
Cheers Gio. In terms of style of play, from his later career I have him pegged as a deep lying playmaker type with class dribbling and passing, but inconsistent and a bit lazy. Is this a fair representation? With Mendieta, I loved that Valencia team and rated him highly, but never really saw him as a midfield powerhouse so much as an industrious and creative right-sided midfielder. I know someone (Pippa maybe?) thought likewise in a previous draft, but we were definitely in the minority, with most viewing him as a player you could construct a midfield around. Rightly or wrongly, I don't really view him a being on that level. I'd class Beckham, for example, as a bigger vote winner. Say, if Beckham scored at a 10 as a wide midfielder and Di Livio was hypothetically a 1 (harsh on him obviously but just to make the point), I'd have Mendieta as a 6-8.
 
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antohan

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I find this game very difficult to call.

I really like Chester's side upfront and in midfield where I think he has a distinct edge... I can see him being the far sexier and unpredictable side, capable of creating something magical out of nothing... and then I see the defence. It's just such a bizarre combo, but I somewhat see how the fullbacks being so completely different may just about be OK relative to the "wide" men they face, and the uninspiring CB pairing being just about the sort you want against someone like Batistuta... It's just such a drastic stylistic change from what you see further up the pitch... And then there's Kahn.

Pace has a very appealing front four but, as said, the defenders they face may be just about right, then check again and think I must be kidding, but they are. Sort of, somehow. Not comfortable but won't be the goalfest some seem to expect. The midfield is well beaten IMO and pace's back four I would rate higher as a standalone defensive unit, but see it being somewhat ill-suited to deal with the threat they face.

Has to be Chester then really, although every time I see Reiziger on the pitch I panic.
 

harms

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Really surprised with the score here.
Yes, Chester has Rezinger, but he has a brilliant Mendieta to help him.
On the other hand, paceme has a very strange CB pairing - I don't rate Koscielny at all, he had a habit of being sent off some time ago and the last season (his undeniably best) there were some horrible matches against the stronger opponents. And he and Vidic doesn't compliment each other - Koscielny is at his best paired with slow and intelligent Mertezacker, Vidic was at his best with Rio, who isn't alike Koscielny at all.
The midfield is imbalanced too, I think, if you're using the City's Toure - he isn't the one to contribute much in defense and they're up against Prosinecki, Mendieta and van Bommel. Figo can help there, but not much.

paceme's attacking force is better, but it wouldn't matter, I think. And I rate Bergkamp higher than most here, probably.
 

bishblaize

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I think Chester's front three are easier to see performing badly, since at least two of them (maybe Bergkamp as well) are pretty eccentric. But since we're talking about those players at the their best, you're talking about three wildly talented individuals. I'd expect not only goals, but unusual ones.

Pace's team has kind of front line that would win you a league, as it has a much more balanced consistent set of players. But in a one off where both sets of players played well, I'd certainly go for Chester.

Midfield wise, Pace maybe shades it on personnel, but Mendieta is just the kind of tigerish player that Toure hates to play against so I can really see his impact being negated. Once you pull back in Toure's outstanding attacking talent, the rest of the midfield is evens.

Defensively I don't think there's anything to choose between them. Both have one legend and one handy player at centre back, and decent but not game changing full backs. Attacks better on both sides, so I'd expect goals.

So 2-1 to chester, with an outlandish goal from Ibra settling it.
 

paceme

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Really surprised with the score here.
Yes, Chester has Rezinger, but he has a brilliant Mendieta to help him.
On the other hand, paceme has a very strange CB pairing - I don't rate Koscielny at all, he had a habit of being sent off some time ago and the last season (his undeniably best) there were some horrible matches against the stronger opponents. And he and Vidic doesn't compliment each other - Koscielny is at his best paired with slow and intelligent Mertezacker, Vidic was at his best with Rio, who isn't alike Koscielny at all.
The midfield is imbalanced too, I think, if you're using the City's Toure - he isn't the one to contribute much in defense and they're up against Prosinecki, Mendieta and van Bommel. Figo can help there, but not much.

paceme's attacking force is better, but it wouldn't matter, I think. And I rate Bergkamp higher than most here, probably.
How on earth don't they suit each other? You've got a classic pairing of a ball player and a traditional hard man. The midfield isn't unbalanced either, Cambiasso holding, Toure attacking, it's an incredibly simple pivot.

I still don't see anything special with his attack tbh, but I've never rated ibra that highly, it's hardly a coincidence that his best form has come in shit leagues, Batistuta is far more likely to win the game with something brilliant, being proven in probably the strongest league in living memory, same goes for all my front line tbh.
 

harms

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How on earth don't they suit each other? You've got a classic pairing of a ball player and a traditional hard man. The midfield isn't unbalanced either, Cambiasso holding, Toure attacking, it's an incredibly simple pivot.

I still don't see anything special with his attack tbh, but I've never rated ibra that highly, it's hardly a coincidence that his best form has come in shit leagues, Batistuta is far more likely to win the game with something brilliant, being proven in probably the strongest league in living memory, same goes for all my front line tbh.
He (Koscielny) is too rush to go forward - you need a "hard man" and an "intelligent" defender - not that Vidic wasn't intelligent at all, but it wasn't his game. It is Rio's or Mertezacker's role, as much as they are different. Well, that's my view, I can be wrong, of course - but he isn't suited for this and even if he was he would be a big liability for you.

Your midfield, in my opinion, isn't suited to fight with Chester's midfield of three (if we exclude Bergkamp and Rui Costa out of the equation), you need to incredible hard-working players to do so and Toure isn't one. Look at Man City - and while Cambiasso is, of course, better holding midfielder than Fernandinho they still struggled against the big sides - because when they're not dominating completely they're failing to defend competently. And you have a very questionable (for me, again) CB pairing behind them.

Your attack is better, yes, I would only say that Bergkamp is better than Rui Costa, your flanks are simply brilliant. Bati is better than Ibra but not by a big margin for me.
 

paceme

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Well it's not a midfield three in a classic sense is it. Van Bommel will constantly be having to support the full backs and Mendiata is being tasked with providing width. My attack is fast and direct, there's going to be massive gaps opening up when he is either attacking or defending which can be explioted.
 

sajeev

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How on earth don't they suit each other? You've got a classic pairing of a ball player and a traditional hard man. The midfield isn't unbalanced either, Cambiasso holding, Toure attacking, it's an incredibly simple pivot.

I still don't see anything special with his attack tbh, but I've never rated ibra that highly, it's hardly a coincidence that his best form has come in shit leagues, Batistuta is far more likely to win the game with something brilliant, being proven in probably the strongest league in living memory, same goes for all my front line tbh.
we must be viewing football very differently if you think you have a classic pairing. Koscielny is a nothing defender & while Vidic is good, he is not good enough to compensate for the weakness of the rest of the defence.